Kanto: Perfect...not really.

[S.Suikun]

I think one of the problems with Kanto's gyms is that the entire saga was paced in a rather rushed fashion, giving limited exposure to each gym leader and gym battle. One-episode gym battles would generally be rushed on their own, as evidenced by things like the Battle Pike, but the one-ep gyms in Kanto were additionally bogged down by other plots occuring in the same episode, mainly TR appearances and interruptions that severely detracted from each match. Such is why the 2+ episode format for gyms is a necessity.

As stated above, there is no reason we can't have both a quality plot and a quality battle. And as also stated, I really like bringing up the Pryce arc whenever possible because its such a superb example of both some of the best emotion this series has ever attempted, on top of a pretty dang good battle.

 

[High Commander Solomon]

Is it just me who doesn't have a problem at all with Psyduck's DEM-ness?

I mean, it's consistently portrayed, it comes with a handicap (i.e. a lot of the time it doesn't work and Psyduck's useless without it), and it's very amusing to watch such a ridiculous Pokemon wreak mass destruction. Rather like Magikarp evolving into Gyrados.

Yeah, but the problem is that Psyduck's appearances, while naturally comical, have this strange way of not being played for laughs. He wins the big Whirl Cup match, he makes Dorien and the badgemaker change their minds about Misty, and there's absolutely no sense of the irony of it all. With a character who is supposed to be an overcoming underdog, win by sheer ridiculous luck is kind of cheapening. It's the same as ending a movie by just having random assassins show up and kill all the important characters right when the tension is about to explode - what a craptacular payoff.

And so you don't get to scream bias, Squirtle was worse.

 

[Maestro Kinético]

Tell me about those..."plot twists" in Kanto. I´m really looking forward to it, because, in my opinion, there are none.

Episode of Electrabuzz and Scyther. The inspector reveals her face at the end, she's Joy.

What drama? A gym setting on fire and Ash helping to save some of the pokemon is not drama because it has no suspense or originality. What is so dramatic?

The fact that he had to help Gloom, a Pokemon that was rejected because of its oddour. That was a very intense episode, with a very deep message. Episodes from now don't have those hidden messages, they are just fairy tales of cute Pokemon and miniskirts.

The drama in Kanto was great, and the pilot was one of the best I've ever seen. So emotional and intense. Nowadays the episodes don't have that vive.

 

[≈*Virulent Tsunami*≈]

Episode of Electrabuzz and Scyther. The inspector reveals her face at the end, she's Joy.

And this was so vital later on in the series, amirite? I don't know how Ash could've beat Sabrina without knowing that the inspector was Joy !

 

[Hikari's Deokishisu]

I agree that Kanto was FAR from perfect.

It had the worst league ever. (no 6 on 6)
Worst gym battles. (Ahh you saved my Gloom, you get a badge!) (Hahaha, you made me laugh, gym badge!).
It's where he started ditching the Pokemon we still have to hear all the complaining about. (Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape)
Lack of character from most of the Pokemon.

I'm not saying it was all bad, though, it did have some good in it. Some of the episodes were entertaining. Misty still had character.

I'd say the season was okay, but doesn't deserve the praise it recieves.

I completely agree, 100%
;393;

 

[Maestro Kinético]

And this was so vital later on in the series, amirite? I don't know how Ash could've beat Sabrina without knowing that the inspector was Joy !

No, it was a way to make an episode good, and it was intelligent writting, something that we don't have nowadays. It's all so childish and plain.

Sabrina's plot was also brilliant, I loved seing pyschicological deseases turning into real. The double personality thing was supberb. The more I remember the more I miss Kanto, it was such a great season. I'll always remember it.

 

[Jo-Jo]

I think one of the problems with Kanto's gyms is that the entire saga was paced in a rather rushed fashion, giving limited exposure to each gym leader and gym battle. One-episode gym battles would generally be rushed on their own, as evidenced by things like the Battle Pike, but the one-ep gyms in Kanto were additionally bogged down by other plots occuring in the same episode, mainly TR appearances and interruptions that severely detracted from each match. Such is why the 2+ episode format for gyms is a necessity.

True, although sometimes we get the reverse and the writers give us a two-part gym match because they feel 'they have to', yet don't manage to come up with enough subplots and whatnot to fill out the time, so the plot ends up being spread really thin. Those are usually the ones with particularly superfluous TR plots.

I'm generally in favour of cutting things down wherever possible. Most of the editing process for books involves taking bits out.

Yeah, but the problem is that Psyduck's appearances, while naturally comical, have this strange way of not being played for laughs. He wins the big Whirl Cup match, he makes Dorien and the badgemaker change their minds about Misty, and there's absolutely no sense of the irony of it all.

Really? I haven't seen those particular episodes, but I remember Psyduck's headaches being played very effectively for laughs in other places. Princess vs Princess, for instance, or The Evolution Solution. Or, for a time when Psyduck didn't win, The Bridge Bike Gang.

I find that particular set-up inherantly comical, though. *shrug*

With a character who is supposed to be an overcoming underdog, win by sheer ridiculous luck is kind of cheapening.

But isn't the 'sheer ridiculous luck' part the whole point?

It's the same as ending a movie by just having random assassins show up and kill all the important characters right when the tension is about to explode - what a craptacular payoff.

That's why I cited as a reason Psyduck doesn't bother me the fact that its headachey powers have been extensively showcased. It's not like we aren't aware of what it can do. That makes the Psyduck get-out clause more acceptable to me than a load of assassins showing up, which would come out of nowhere.

And so you don't get to scream bias, Squirtle was worse.

? I wasn't going to.

 

[Gravy]

*callapses to the floor and quicky raises hand to forehead, before being engulfed in a spotlight* Ohhhh, the absolute DRAMA of it all!! *fade to black*

No, it was a way to make an episode good, and it was intelligent writting, something that we don't have nowadays. It's all so childish and plain.

So, let me get this straight. Stuff like;

-Mr. Briney getting caught up in a hostage situation, in which his Wingull's life is at stake.
-A gym leader going through a mid-life crisis.
-Haruka (and the rest)caring for, and developing a bond with a young Swablu, before having to make the decision of letting it go free.
-The Togepi Arc.
-A Gym leader's wife believing that her husband is having an affair.
-James having to leave behind the pokémon he cherished most of all, as well as having to confess to his most understanding childhood carers that he's infact a criminal.
-Grovyle/Sceptile's stuggles in love effecting it's mental and physical state.
- Pretty much any contest-related episode.
-Aipom's own personallity faults getting the best of her, resulting in Ash almost giving up his dream just so she wouldn't have to suffer alone.
-Having to save an island from destruction via giant Claydoll by relying on a crusty old hermit's illegible book, resulting in comical escapades.
-The Ralts episode, where Masato is practically put in charge of a critically ill Ralts, before having to say a heartbreaking farewell.

doesn't count as *ahem* 'intelligent writing'? If you say so~

 

[Maestro Kinético]

*callapses to the floor and quicky raises hand to forehead, before being engulfed in a spotlight* Ohhhh, the absolute DRAMA of it all!! *fade to black*

So, let me get this straight. Stuff like;

-A gym leader going through a mid-life crisis.

What Gym leader are you talking about? I prefer Sabrina's plot.

-Haruka (and the rest)caring for, and developing a bond with a young Swablu, before having to make the decision of letting it go free.

Good Bye Butterfree. That's drama. I cried a river.

-The Togepi Arc.

Togepi is from Kanto. Anything else made with it is just recycling.

-A Gym leader's wife believing that her husband is having an affair.

That doesn't sound like drama, sounds like soap opera.

-James having to leave behind the pokémon he cherished most of all, as well as having to confess to his most understanding childhood carers that he's infact a criminal.

The episode of the Cycling gang was much more dramatic.

-Grovyle/Sceptile's stuggles in love effecting it's mental and physical state.

I prefer Bulbasaur not wanting to evolve and Charizard Chills by far.

- Pretty much any contest-related episode.

Yeah, seing some pretty attacks with flowers and stars and gay characters showing bellies is drama.

-Having to save an island from destruction via giant Claydoll by relying on a crusty old hermit's illegible book, resulting in comical escapades.

Tentacool and Tentacruel, better and with a great background message. How many times an island has been menaced with destruction?

-The Ralts episode, where Masato is practically put in charge of a critically ill Ralts, before having to say a heartbreaking farewell.

I agree with you in that one. I loved that episode. But one in a hole season?

doesn't count as *ahem* 'intelligent writing'? If you say so~

Comparing with Kanto that's peanuts (I don't know if that's a rude expresion, my English teacher said it yesterday so I apoligize in case it is)

Of three seasons or so you have only those things, while Kanto is full of good quality drama and writing. The things you mented can't compare with Kanto, at least in my opinion they can't. The show is becoming more and more childish and we don't have good writing, everything is plain and simple, no content inside a vain pink coloured wrapper.

 

[Hunter_RuLe]

I know Kanto wasn't perfect, but it was the season me and allmost all of you fell in love with. The original isn't always the best but it'll always be 'the original'. Pokemon felt really speical back than because we didn't know anything about it yet; The characters, the gyms, even every 'new' pokemon, its was all new and exciting back then. Besides the indigo league did have a lot of humor and was way better written than Johto. The Advance generation was pretty good written aswell, but is will always be very hard to top the thing that made you like pokemon, many people will think that this season shows the way how all the series should be and therefore sometimes Kanto is considered 'perfect'.

 

[Gravy]

What Gym leader are you talking about? I prefer Sabrina's plot.

I'm talking about Wattson.
I couldn't care less if you enjoyed Sabrina's plot more or not, because that's not what I'm trying to get at. They're different episodes that accomplish different things.

Good Bye Butterfree. That's drama. I cried a river.

And this stops the Swablu episode from being dramatic/well-written how?

Togepi is from Kanto. Anything else made with it is just recycling.

Poppycock. Do you even have any idea what the Houen Togepi episodes are about, or what occurs during them? Misty having to leave Togepi(tic) behind, the plight of the mirage kingdom, General Hanzou trying to conquer said kingdom, treachery and deciet etc.

That doesn't sound like drama, sounds like soap opera.

I hate to burst your bubble and all, but that's exactly what a soap opera is. Drama.

The episode of the Cycling gang was much more dramatic.

And how do you come to this conclusion? The Bridge Bike gang was more of a comical episode, if anything. Have you even watched 'Sweet Baby James'? Have you even sat through that heart wrentching scene where he's forced to leave his Chimecho behind? Chances are you probably haven't.

I prefer Bulbasaur not wanting to evolve and Charizard Chills by far.

And this somehow makes Sceptile's plight badly written and 'childish' (yeah, people. I know the whole show is childish, but I'll just use this for the sake of argument) trash?

Yeah, seing some pretty attacks with flowers and stars and gay characters showing bellies is drama.

Once again, I have to ask if you've even watched the episodes you're so quick to judge? I'm sure anyone here could tell you (especially Cybercubed, the ranting fiend that he is) that the contest episodes aren't just segments of 'pretty attacks with flowers and stars'. Quite the contrary, actually. For the most part, the appeals aren't even heavily focused on. Character interaction, relationships, personallities and (get this) development usually take center stage. This inludes the episodes where Haruka isn't even at the contest, and instead meets one of her rivals or inspirations along the way. Your whole attitude towards them just makes you look extremely ignorant.

Tentacool and Tentacruel, better and with a great background message. How many times an island has been menaced with destruction?

Again, I don't care. Prefering one episode over the other doesn't mean the other episode is complete garbage. Especially when the tone of said episode is completely different. Last time I checked, lighthearted comedy didn't really need a background message to be considered as well-written and entertaining.

Of three seasons or so you have only those things, while Kanto is full of good quality drama and writing. The things you mented can't compare with Kanto, at least in my opinion they can't. The show is becoming more and more childish and we don't have good writing, everything is plain and simple, no content inside a vain pink coloured wrapper.

First of all, no. These aren't the only episodes that were of decent quality. Infact, all of them were off the top of my head. I'll be damed if I'm going to go through an backcatlogue of episodes during my lunch hour.
Second, you still haven't explained why the episodes I mentioned were of such bad quality. What makes them childish, how were they badly written, what exactly wasn't 'dramatic' about them? You've failed to answer the question I asked in the first place, and all that does is say you're blinded by your own bias.

Not that there was any doubt in the first place....

 

[Korobooshi Kojiro]

Episode of Electrabuzz and Scyther. The inspector reveals her face at the end, she's Joy.

Oh COME ON!

It was so obvious to any person with half-a-brain who it was.

Now, Milly revealing herself to be Brody was a nice plot-twist, you wouldn't of saw that coming if you watched the episode for the first time.

But one in a hole season?

Rabbit Season! Hole Season! Rabbit Season!

 

[b3an0b0y]

Kanto was certainly the best especially the first Episode!

 

[Rex Kamex]

I do think the first episode of Pokemon was better than the first one of Pokemon AG (not that that episode was bad or anything, it was cool too). Of course, the first episode doesn't guarantee how the rest of the series will be.

I really am the only person here who favors Kanto and AG equally... (Then again, I scanned through the thread...)

Oh COME ON!

It was so obvious to any person with half-a-brain who it was.

Now, Milly revealing herself to be Brody was a nice plot-twist, you wouldn't of saw that coming if you watched the episode for the first time.

Yeah, the only way you could've even had the idea that something was up with "Milly" was when Brock stopped flirting with her.

EDIT: As for the other thing, it would've been more of a plot twist if it wasn't Nurse Joy. XD

 

[CyberCubed]

I really am the only person here who favors Kanto and AG equally... (Then again, I scanned through the thread...)

I tend to like them both equally to an extent as well, since they contrast each other well. But I do include Orange with Kanto when comparing them, because its basically an extention of Season 1 like BF is to Hoenn. I can basically sit through every saga of Pokemon and enjoy it except for Johto, where I just watch the good episodes and don't bother watching the mundane stuff.

On my Master Quest boxsets I only tend to watch select episodes that were above average or great and skip the filler, it simply doesn't compare with how good the episodes from the two Advanced Boxsets are.

I have no idea why people say that AG started off slow. Everything leading up to Rustboro was really well done, and the whole Dewford training arc only had 1 bad episode, (the Nuzleaf one), and the eps leading up to Wattson with the exception of the Plusle/Minun one were great as well.

Hoenn didn't get bogged down with filler until the middle era, but we still got some really great episodes. Although the run between Winona and Tate/Liza had some bad fillers, the only saving grace were the Lilycove Contest two parter and about two other episodes in that streak.

Advanced Battle had really great runs of episodes, especially everything on Izabe Island and everything from Juan afterward was fantastic. The quality hit a slump again in very early BF, particularly between Noland and the Saffron Contest, but obviously got much better after that as we all know.

D/P has also been really enjoyable thus far, with the exception of one or two episodes. Its amazing that despite repeating what was done in AG, the writers made up for it with some really high quality episodes. I just hope they can keep it up, if possible, they could end up surpassing AG by the end.

 

[ChaosMage]

Strange how, like so many other shows, as soon as they break the usual formula of the series it becomes controversial, but then people complain that they don't do that more often. Wattson's gym was the time to do just that (and they did redeem it). They knew that a battle against his gym team would be dull and unoriginal, and Ash would not defeat him easily. Plus the idea of electric pokemon becoming overcharged has been used several times and is not quite the deus ex machina that the Golden Armour was.

 

[Korobooshi Kojiro]

Considering Maestro thinks the March of the Exeggcutor Squad was full of drama...

Yeah. Rosy Red Glasses, me doth think thous't protest too much.

 

[High Commander Solomon]

The Dorien episode was "Just Add Water," which admittedly kind of sucked, but it worked as a Female Lead's Showcase ep where Ash didn't utterly vanish for once. ("ZOMIGAWD MISTY IS A SIDEKICK NOT A LEAD YOU MUST HATE WELL-WRITTEN CHARACTERS BECAUSE YOU HATE MAY! BIASSSSSSSSS!" I know, Cyber, let it out. It's healthy.) You MUST have seen the Whirl Cup one because you like to mention it when the Main Girl Wars go beserk (Jigglypuff > all three, or four if Marina counts), and the bademaker dude? I thought you were the big Hosos nut. (Why so much of dull old Tracey? Why do I go off on so many tangents? We have philosophers working on it right now.)

The load of assasins thing was mentioned because it happened in a movie I was enjoying and might win the Oscar. What were the writers THINKING? Curse you, writers in Hong Kong and adaptors working for Martin Scorcese!

Psyduck is himself funny, but as the answer to what little dramatic tension arises in certain episodes he becomes kind of annoying, IMO. But I'm wrong a lot of the time. It's my flaky personality and the fact that I don't own the boxsets and don't feel like checking my facts otherwise.

 

[Rex Kamex]

Considering Maestro thinks the March of the Exeggcutor Squad was full of drama...

Yeah. Rosy Red Glasses, me doth think thous't protest too much.

^ Hey, the Exeggutor episode had the weird magician with the priceless dub voice, not to mention Ash hypnotized. (And you can't help but like the part where the Exeggcute wobbling in unison as they finished hypnotizing him anyway.)

Not the most dramatic episode, but definitely a memorable one, IMO.

D/P has also been really enjoyable thus far, with the exception of one or two episodes. Its amazing that despite repeating what was done in AG, the writers made up for it with some really high quality episodes. I just hope they can keep it up, if possible, they could end up surpassing AG by the end.

With the exception of [SPOIL]Hikari's role as a coordinator and her bike being destroyed and the lack of Team Galactic (currently)[/SPOIL], not to mention the repetition, D/P really doesn't look that bad. I don't think Pokemon will ever be as bad as Johto at their rate.

I'll still have to wait and see...

 

[CyberCubed]

There's good stuff in D/P, at any rate.