Laïcité and Middle-Easterners in France.

[Alleviate]

Laïcité and Middle-Easterners in France.

Generally members of the Islamic faith, many middle-eastern men and women are fleeing their own depraved countries and seeking shelter in the stability of France. Walking Paris it is a given that you will find many women of this origin face down, cloaked in a hajib or burka, begging for money. Their influx is a growing problem, and a very controversial subject in France. Most pickpockets and street rat criminals you will find in the nation are North African or Middle-Eastern immigrants (and perhaps some disgruntled youth who did not make it into the Sorbonne, but mostly they just congregate along the Seine, drinking liquor and jeering at enthusiastic tourists.)

This is a problem because Muslims are generally very concerned with their faith and partake in many public rituals (prayers and various head coverings), but France has a notable tradition of secularism, removing religion from public life (despite them being a fairly Catholic people).

Much like immigrants in America, the great melting pot, many refuse to melt.

What do you believe should be done in France? Heavy quotas on immigration with interviews and what have you? An outlaw of faith-related headgear and prayers in public? An outright ban on immigration? You be the judge.

 

[Snorunt conservationist]

I'm too tired right now, but is this a debate on immigration in general or islamic immigration/integration?

 

[Sadib]

I find it hypocritical that France allows people to wear crosses on their neck, but not hijabs.

 

[ebilly99]

I completly agree marioguy. Either it is all alowed or none is allowed..

 

[AzukanAsimbu]

They should be allowed to. Secularism doesnt mean religous repression, unless from a pessimistic view.

 

[Alleviate]

I find it hypocritical that France allows people to wear crosses on their neck, but not hijabs.

As of July in France head coverings are easily found on Islamic women althroughout the nation.

islamic immigration/integration

this

 

[ChedWick]

I find it hypocritical that France allows people to wear crosses on their neck, but not hijabs.

I wont pretend to know the details but what makes it hypocritical exactly? Because to me, one is jewelry the other posses a possibly security risk.

 

[ebilly99]

I wont pretend to know the details but what makes it hypocritical exactly? Because to me, one is jewelry the other posses a possibly security risk.

Want me to show you how to turn a cross into a knife? Either of them can be a weapon, heck they both can be WMD's but to allow one and deny the other is wrong.

 

[ChedWick]

Want me to show you how to turn a cross into a knife? Either of them can be a weapon, heck they both can be WMD's but to allow one and deny the other is wrong.

Why thank your for the insightful post... Unless the banning of the head coverings is specified toward the hijab I only would have seen it as a ban on concealing ones identity in public places BUT again I know not the details and after looking a little further into exactly what the hijab is I'm gonna have to side with those against the ban since the face is not obscured like other religious garments that I initially had in mind.

 

[R4GEKILL!!!]

1. I'm french, and I KNOW there's no ban on head coverings. That's complete bullsh!t.
2. The only reason (Most) French people dislike the muslims/arabs in their country is many of them lot come here as refugees, and have many children in order to live off the extremely generous french welfare system. This sounds racist, but it is unfortunately true, and politicians can't really do much about all the moochers for fear of sounding racist. It's a friggin' mess right now in france, but that's a different story...

 

[Alleviate]

1. I'm french, and I KNOW there's no ban on head coverings. That's complete bullsh!t.

Thank you.

 

[Profesco]

Most pickpockets and street rat criminals you will find in the nation are North African or Middle-Eastern immigrants

Riffraff, street rat...
I don't buy that!
If only they'd look closer~
Would they see a poor boy?
No sirree.
They'd find out there's so much more to me!

This is a problem because Muslims are generally very concerned with their faith and partake in many public rituals (prayers and various head coverings), but France has a notable tradition of secularism, removing religion from public life (despite them being a fairly Catholic people).

Much like immigrants in America, the great melting pot, many refuse to melt.

What do you believe should be done in France? Heavy quotas on immigration with interviews and what have you? An outlaw of faith-related headgear and prayers in public? An outright ban on immigration? You be the judge.

Is France's tradition of secularism an active law, as in religious observations being expressly prohibited in public? If the country has an existing legal framework of laws about what is not allowed, then immigrants from any country or cultural background should abide by the laws upon entering France. It needn't be a matter of tolerance, but of standing legal code.

If there's no law against free religious expression, then let people wear whatever symbols of their religion they want. (Unless, as Chedwick brought up, there is some valid safety or crime concern. That's more complex.)

 

[Sadib]

1. I'm french, and I KNOW there's no ban on head coverings. That's complete bullsh!t.
2. The only reason (Most) French people dislike the muslims/arabs in their country is many of them lot come here as refugees, and have many children in order to live off the extremely generous french welfare system. This sounds racist, but it is unfortunately true, and politicians can't really do much about all the moochers for fear of sounding racist. It's a friggin' mess right now in france, but that's a different story...

It's racist to accuse Arabs of having lots of kids only to exploit France's welfare system. Maybe France should fix it's broken refuge and welfare systems.

 

[Sabconth]

It's racist to accuse Arabs of having lots of kids only to exploit France's welfare system.

He never said they were doing it only for that reason. Just that most French people believe this to be the case.

Maybe France should fix it's broken refuge and welfare systems.

So much easier to say than do. Besides, no matter what they try and do now, someone will lose out and get angry.

The ideal situation of course is to fix the countries these refugees are escaping from, but that's would be unimaginably difficult.

 

[Vermehlo_Steele]

It's racist to accuse Arabs of having lots of kids only to exploit France's welfare system. Maybe France should fix it's broken refuge and welfare systems.

I'm sure, oh wise and all knowing one, that you have the answers?


@OP: Until Europeans reach a total fertility rate of at least 2.10 children per woman, you need immigration to replace workers who die/ retire.

Except for the usual security issues, the state has no right to tell it's citizens what to wear or not wear.

 

[CSolarstorm]

I have to agree with Profesco, especially about the Alladin lyrics. If they come to France, it's their obligation to follow France's ways of living, even if they include a dress code. It may seem harsh or against natural rights in some countries, but France is France. The racial element is situational. Nobody is being racist by asking them to follow the laws of the country.

And how are refugee and welfare systems ever not broken?

 

[Snorunt conservationist]

Is France's tradition of secularism an active law, as in religious observations being expressly prohibited in public? If the country has an existing legal framework of laws about what is not allowed, then immigrants from any country or cultural background should abide by the laws upon entering France. It needn't be a matter of tolerance, but of standing legal code.

I think that France does make heavy attempts to be as secular as possible in terms of state run facilities.

The question is an interesting one, and it's often hard to be tactful. However, I think the OP has got it spot on when he says that the daily lives of many muslims is influenced by their religion more than many (5 times a day, wtf?). I also believe that this spills out into the wider communities. Muslims believe that their sizable presence deserves recognition, hence the pressure for the introduction of bodies such as Sharia Law courts. Unfortunately many people (including muslims) have little idea of just how vile such institutions are. However, as a community grows, so will their voice. The Danish cartoons controversy also show us how many muslims believe they have some kind of exemption from criticism and satire.

In terms of the Niqab/Hijab, I reluctantly believe that women should be allowed to wear them if they so please, providing that it does not interfere with other peoples lives. If a school decides it prohibits learning, you accept that and STFU. If a bank won't let people come in with motorcycle helmets on, you can take your headscarf off too. If you work in a public sector building, serving the public, and someone asks you to take it off, you take it off. This is not like a cross, or even a turban (covers less of the head). In general day to day life however, be my guest. I am offended by it, but it does not affect me to the extent that it actively affects my life in a negative way.

 

[Ausgirl]

Not all Muslims are beggers.

I think that if these people want to wear religious head gear in public then that's their choice and that by banning that you're just banning freedom of expression. The only time head gear should be banned is when you need to get an id check or whatever where you actually need to see the entire face and other physical features.

As for immigration I don't have anything against it since it can actually help improve countries, for example Australia has an uneven population with older people outnumbering younger people so when you have these African families with lots of kids (generalising here) imigrate to Australia they will eventually help support the older population through taxes etc. That doesn't mean that I approve of the whole Assylum seekers thing or anything like that though since that's another subject alltogether.

 

[Manafi's Dream]

I find it hypocritical that France allows people to wear crosses on their neck, but not hijabs.

France was first and foremost a Catholic nation, and I imagine they still keep it that way today.

Taken from Wikipedia:

Religion in France

Christianity 54%
None 31%
Islam 4%
Judaism 1%
Buddhism 1%
Other 4%

I think you can see why it is not a major concern to legalize hajibs. Frankly, with so many Christians in one country, of course they won't allow it. Do you know what kind of effect that would have? You might be facing large riots of Christian protestors, all over one little piece of clothing. Is it really worth it? Don't get me wrong, it isn't fair to the Islamic population, but France is a Christian-dominant country. It isn't going to happen.

 

[7 tyranitars]

There are reasons the burqa is banned, you can't see the persons face, which is what they want.. but is troublesome if you imagine that person might be a bankrobber. You can't identify those people, it is like walking arround with a burglars mask.