LC Discussion Thread

[ger9119]

Spoiler: Rules and Bans

-Only Pokémon THAT CAN EVOLVE and are at the SMALLEST EVOLUTION STAGE may enter. (Like Charmeleon can't enter but Charmander can)
-The Pokémon must be level 5.

1 - Sleep Clause is on; only one Pokémon on each team can be put to sleep by the opponent at a time.
2 - Self-KO Clause is on; if a player causes the game to end via the use of a move such as Explosion, that player loses the game.
3 - OHKO Clause is on; moves such as Sheer Cold or Horn Drill are banned.
4 - Evasion Clause is on; moves such as Double Team are banned.
5 - Species Clause is on; no team can have more than one of the same Pokémon.
6 - Item Clause is off; a team is free to use six of the same item if it so desires.
7 - The moves Dragon Rage, Sonic Boom and Swagger are banned.
8 - The Pokémon Gligar, Meditite, Murkrow, Scyther, Sneasel, Swirlix, Tangela and Yanma are banned.
9 - The ability Moody is banned.

Spoiler: Beginner tips

1 - NEVER use Leftovers (or Black Sludge).

2 - Don't use Choice Band/Specs. (Life Orb is better Band and Specs in most situations, but there are some exceptions)

3- NEVER use Sitrus Berry OR Oran Berry. Instead, Berry Juice.

4- Don't try stall teams. (LC is an aggressive metagame and stall teams are really hard to make and use)

5- NEVER use Assault Vest. (Just use Eviolite)

 

[Apollo77]

Okay as a lover of LC I suppose I'll get the ball rolling here

For anyone who's going for reqs right now, what are you thinking about voting to ban and why?

Personally I'd like to ban Fletchling simply because it has a powerful priority that forces teams to pack several counters. And once it's gone I can try Trick Room teams and see how strong Azurill is lol

 

[Sparkbeat]

I'm probably not getting reqs due to time restraints and wanting to put the time I do have into other things, but I have played a fair bit in the current metagame. While Fletchling is very good, I don't think it's ban worthy. There's lots of things that can counter it depending on its coverage move like Tirtouga, Archen, Pawniard, Ferroseed, etc, and it's got a good amount of checks as well if you don't allow it to get up a Swords Dance. It's a good Pokemon, but it's nowhere near as threatening as things like Murkrow, Meditite, or even Misdreavus and Pawniard which are still in the metagame. As for what I'd like to see tested, Knock Off is something I think that's needed a test for a while now. In a tier where almost everything needs its item to do what it's supposed to, Knock Off is extremely crippling to any team. I typically feel forced to run Shellos on most of my teams just to be able to switch in somewhat reliably to Pawniard. It's so easy to just slap Knock Off on almost any offensive mon, and then let Misdreavus, Fletchling or a Shell Smasher come in and sweep your entire team due to your walls or bulky mons being screwed because they lost their Eviolite. For me, it just creates a really unhealthy metagame. If Knock Off does get banned though, Misdreavus may be the next suspect test, but to be fair, it'll be a lot easier to handle since you won't have to worry about your Eviolite being chopped off by that Tirtouga you have to use your Porygon to beat. Actually, once Knock Off's gone, we could probably retest Yanma since it'll be slightly less threatening without Knock Off support.

 

[Apollo77]

Knock Off is definitely a big debate because of how central it is to the current meta. I agree that it would make a reasonable ban because Eviolite and Berry Juice are so important right now, but without it, mons like Misdreavus who are weak to it and mons like Magnemite who really abuse their item could possibly run out of control. I mean as for Pawniard, I end up switching in a Larvesta, Timburr or something else that can take its attacks, even without Eviolite. As for retesting Yanma, I don't think an absence of Knock Off will make Yanma any more less threatening, because it still reaches 19 speed with a ~90% accurate Hypnosis thanks to Compoundeyes.

 

[PokemonMegaBeast]

Okay as a lover of LC I suppose I'll get the ball rolling here

For anyone who's going for reqs right now, what are you thinking about voting to ban and why?

Personally I'd like to ban Fletchling simply because it has a powerful priority that forces teams to pack several counters. And once it's gone I can try Trick Room teams and see how strong Azurill is lol

I agree its a pain and i see alot of sun teams that have a Rock Type like geodude or something just to stop fletchling its a pain and as you don't use stall teams or that many defensive pokemon fletchling can be really annoying and it has swords dance

 

[ger9119]

Alright since we are on the topic of bans i thought i should suggest what i think should be banned.

• Knock Off- This move is the single most common move in the tier and is also the most effective move. It cripples pretty much any pokemon in the tier, while also taking massive amounts of damage.
• Fletchling- At first i didn't think Fletchling was very good, but after seeing the swords dance variants i was convinced this thing needs to go. With an item like berry juice to aide it's set up, and a boosted priority STAB Acrobatics pretty much proves it should be gone.
• Berry Juice- I'm sorta torn on this, but this should be considered for sure. Berry Juice gives a pokemon pretty much an extra life. And when placed on a Sturdy Shell Smash user or another set-up sweeper having multiple lives means multiple sweeping chances as well as multiple set up chances.

 

[Ironthunder]

Bans in LC?
BJuice: Should be banned. With Sturdy, it's broken AF.
Fletch: Yeah, too OP for this tier. Although, just banning GW could make it less of a threat.
Knock Off: No, there's no answer to Eviolites, which cause Pawniard to be OP. KOff shouldn't be banned, unless they're banning Pawniard as well.

 

[Sparkbeat]

Bans in LC?
BJuice: Should be banned. With Sturdy, it's broken AF.

Stealth Rocks are actually becoming pretty common in the tier. Is it because of this strategy? Probably, but the strategy really isn't that broken. LC is such an offensive tier, and if you take the time to Defog or Rapid Spin, you're either saccing the mon that uses it, losing momentum, or allowing a dangerous sweeper to set up, which means Rocks are a good option for keeping this strategy in check. In addition, Knock Off is everywhere.

Fletch: Yeah, too OP for this tier. Although, just banning GW could make it less of a threat.

Like I said above, it has plenty of counters and checks depending on the set, and most of them are fantastic in the metagame so there's no reason to not be using one or two of them. It also has trouble setting up the SD it needs to sweep against many teams.

Knock Off: No, there's no answer to Eviolites.

Eviolite existed throughout the entirety of Gen 5 LC, and that was before Knock Off. Eviolite wouldn't be broken whatsoever if Knock Off was banned. Knock Off, on the other hand, gives many Pokemon no reliable switch ins outside of Shellos and Grimer, who are mediocre in the current metagame, by removing their item and making it to where your Pokemon that were previously defensive walls or bulky tanks are 2HKO'd by the things they're supposed to counter. There's a reason Gen 4 LC was 95% offensively oriented before Eviolite existed.

 

[dragontamer44722]

Yeah, Fletchling is strong in LC, but its not unstoppable. Same with Knock Off. Its a powerful move, but there are enough Pokémon who still resist it that banning it seems too far fetched. My new favorite Pokémon to use in LC is Ponyta. Really fast, hits hard, and has a viable movepool. Saved my butt in my last battle, it outsped a Misdreavus and won a game for me xD

 

[Apollo77]

Just saying, if Fletch was banned, Sun would go crazy in LC. Chylopowhat would make things nearly unstoppable and Bellsprouts would be kicking *** left and right with no true counter lmao

Plus, Fletchling can easily be countered by Tirtuoga, if you're really having trouble with it. Or go Chinchou.

Sun will never go crazy simply because other weathers exist and without perma-weather, there's not a lot of time to get sun offense going. Also there are a ton of mons bulky enough to take anything a Bellsprout or other sun sweeper can throw at it. See: Porygon, Ponyta, Larvesta, etc.

Yeah, Fletchling is strong in LC, but its not unstoppable. Same with Knock Off. Its a powerful move, but there are enough Pokémon who still resist it that banning it seems too far fetched. My new favorite Pokémon to use in LC is Ponyta. Really fast, hits hard, and has a viable movepool. Saved my butt in my last battle, it outsped a Misdreavus and won a game for me xD

Just because a mon resists Knock Off doesn't mean Knock Off isn't doing its job. Walls are completely crippled by their lack of Eviolite, and your team suddenly becomes that much more vulnerable to a sweep. For example, a bulky DD Scraggy with Eviolite can survive a Fletch's Acrobatics, and can then if having boosted already can KO it back with Drain Punch, but without Eviolite it has no chance. Most players will use Knock Off on mons like Mienfoo, Spritzee, and Timburr, even if they resist it, simply to take away their Eviolite and thus their longevity.

 

[dragontamer44722]

Sun will never go crazy simply because other weathers exist and without perma-weather, there's not a lot of time to get sun offense going. Also there are a ton of mons bulky enough to take anything a Bellsprout or other sun sweeper can throw at it. See: Porygon, Ponyta, Larvesta, etc.



Just because a mon resists Knock Off doesn't mean Knock Off isn't doing its job. Walls are completely crippled by their lack of Eviolite, and your team suddenly becomes that much more vulnerable to a sweep. For example, a bulky DD Scraggy with Eviolite can survive a Fletch's Acrobatics, and can then if having boosted already can KO it back with Drain Punch, but without Eviolite it has no chance. Most players will use Knock Off on mons like Mienfoo, Spritzee, and Timburr, even if they resist it, simply to take away their Eviolite and thus their longevity.

Don't get me wrong, I love using Knock off on my Mienfoo, but if you know whats coming you can act accordingly. And for some of the Knock off Pokemon, if you are outsped you are dead. I just don't think its an end all move that should be banned, thats all.

 

[ger9119]

Misdrevous and Fletchling are being suspected.

Also Smogon's LC cup is in the signup phase

Discuss.

 

[Apollo77]

I'm super excited for Smog's LC tour, been making teams like crazy to find something good. Also won a PS tour with one so I guess something's working ^_^

As for the Missy and Fletch suspect process, it seems it's pretty likely Fletch will stay, while Missy looks to be able to go either way. I've realized that through building some other teams that Fletchling can very well be manageable without putting in dedicated counters. With the right amount of pressure Fletch will find itself hard-pressed to set up and sweep. It's frail enough to take down with a couple strong hits, and faster priority hurts as well. Packing resists is nice, but not the only solution. Misdreavus, on the other hand, while obviously manageable through Knock Off, has simply so much versatility that it's hard to play around. With 19 speed, Nasty Plot, and immunity to common priority (Quick Attack, Fake Out, Mach Punch), it's a lot harder to stop a sweep. Missy deserves a ban, Fletch, I'm not too sure right now.

 

[725roy]

Didn't Misdrevous just get banned?

 

[ger9119]

Looks like things are leaning towards Misdrevous being banned. I totally agree with it, Hopefully later down the line Fletchling is gone too.

Sooo what are some underrated mons everyone is running in LC?

 

[Apollo77]

Yep, Misdreavus is officially banned. Very glad to see this, however with the best viable ghost out, Bunnelby and Zigzagoon usages are going to skyrocket, so be sure to back your counters! (And Aipom which everyone seems to think is god for some reason but I'm not worried about that.) Fletch seems to be just fine for the time being, we'll see how that changes as the meta settles.

As for underrated mons, I'm currently running a Specially Defensive, Physically attacking Clauncher as a pivot and it's working wonders. Soaks up an Abra's Psychic, U-Turns out to either break Abra's sash or gain momentum on the switch. Hits decently hard with Crabhammer, can even surprise Fletch with Rock Slide and has Aqua Jet to pick off weakened foes. Loving it right now.

 

[ger9119]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-151255354

Here's a match vs. Macle, whose on the LC Council on Smogon. This was from a random LC room tour today, which I got to the Final 4 in. I'm posting this replay not to show off but to showcase a set i've come up with which always won me the game against a strong opponent. Also the Magby is my own spread, and Wailmer isn't super common but held it's own

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earthquake

I use this in most cases as a phazing lead, but it's able to deal damage throughout. HP Fire is mainly for Ferroseed and Snover, Dragon Tail for phazing/annoyance and Earthquake is for strong hitting stab. The spread maxes out both of his offences, and Sturdy + Berry Juice gives him basically two lifes. Making him able to beat stuff like Chinchou easily while regaining his HP.

 

[dragontamer44722]

I like using Treecko. My set is gimmicky but when it works I absolutely love it.

Modest with Unburden
Focus Sash

Moves: Giga Drain, HP Fighting, Endeavor, Quick Attack.

Pretty self explanatory. I gave it Hp fighting to help it not get totally walled by steel after being reduced in hp (mainly Ferroseed) Not the best set up but it works for me.

 

[pokemonjeff]

I like using Treecko. My set is gimmicky but when it works I absolutely love it.

Adamant with Unburden
Focus Sash

Moves: Giga Drain, HP Fighting, Endeavor, Quick Attack.

Pretty self explanatory. I gave it Hp fighting to help it not get totally walled by steel after being reduced in hp (mainly Ferroseed) Not the best set up but it works for me.

Why on earth would you use adamant? Either modest for sp.attack or something for neutral. You have more special attacks than physical, and the minor boost it would give to QA wouldn't be worth the hit to giga drain and hp fighting

 

[dragontamer44722]

Why on earth would you use adamant? Either modest for sp.attack or something for neutral. You have more special attacks than physical, and the minor boost it would give to QA wouldn't be worth the hit to giga drain and hp fighting

I meant modest, I had my newly bred adamant treecko on the brain xD I do intend to try out a physical version using the same gimmick, but the move pickings are kinda slim.