Litmus Tests.

[poke poke]

Hey guys, just wanted to know your opinion on Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu litmus tests.

I once took one for my main charecter in Pokemon Infinity and got 'regular charecter'. Then I took another and got 'Gary-Stu'.

So what are your opinions. Do these tests really work? If so, could you post some good ones which people can take?

 

[Psychic]

Apply the test to the fandom.

For a lot of tests, for instance, having a special hair colour, such as pink or green, becomes indicative of a Mary-Sue and may hurt your character's score. But really, in animé it's perfectly natural for characters to have strange hair, so this question doesn't apply.

If you're writing a story where the entire human race has telepathic powers, just because your character has these powers as well doesn't make them a Sue. Everyone else has these powers, making the question on the test pointless.


But once you've taken everything into account, I think that they're generally quite accurate. Again, just make sure you're using a litmus test that applies to your particular world, else it won't be as accurate. And really, if your character is deemed a Sue, please don't whine about it; actually reconsider this character, go back and find the possible problems. Denying it won't get you anywhere - if you're going to take the test in the first place, resolve to at least make the effort to improve your character.


poke poke, maybe you should provide links to the two main Mary-Sue litmus Tests, as well as the Pokémon one so everyone can see them and will better unhderstand what you're talking about?

~Psychuc

 

[xXPorygonXx]

And really, if your character is deemed a Sue, please don't whine about it; actually reconsider this character, go back and find the possible problems.

Unless you're writing a parody of Stus, in which case that would probably be a good thing.

I haven't used a Litmus Test before, mostly because there are quite a few and I didn't widh to base my idea off of one test.

 

[elyvorg]

I find that most of them are slightly annoying because they ask you for long lists of possible Sueish traits, and chances are that even if it IS a Sue, your character's only going to have a few. The fact that a lot of them aren't geared to certain fandoms and will therefore be asking inappropriate questions doesn't help.

Pretty much the only litmus test I've ever liked is this one. For starters, it asks you for your character's name and gender, and then it goes on to refer specifically to your character in the questions, which I find makes it more personal, so it just sort of... I dunno, worked. Then the questions themselves, rather than listing random "special" things, seem to lean more towards the essence of a Sue than most litmus tests do.

I dunno, might just be me, but that litmus test is the best one I've seen by far.

 

[Dragonfree]

Mary-Sue litmus tests can be a nice guideline for whether a character is a Sue or not, but they fundamentally miss the point, which is always a bit dangerous. They don't actually measure Sueness, but only some of its common symptoms. This is how real people can be classified as "Irredeemable Sues" and some real Sues (such as the infamous Lucki) get around the questions.

The essence of Sueness lies primarily in the author's own mind and the subtleties of how the fabric of the universe bends around the Sue, and thus cannot really be measured by tests in principle; however, they're always fun to take just to see how many common symptoms your character has.

 

[Ledian_X]

I tend to avoid them like the plague. Granted, I have this one as a link in my bookmarks:

http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html

Yes that's the same one elvorg posted. =D. It's worthy of being linked twice.

I only have it there to serve as a reminder that some of the questions are utterly insane. I took it once or twice and I got good remarks at the end. But, some of the stuff doesn't apply to my characters at all. For example, it asks if the bad guys view him/her as hot. Now, what self respecting villain would go "Wow. He/she's kicking my *** but damn he/she is hot!" Kinda machostic isn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I like the quiz a lot but some of the questions it asks are insane and well, I would like a test that's more applicible to superhuman characters. In a reality where mutant powers are known and attained, there shouldnt be a sue connection if he/she can do fantastic things. As long as there's a reason behind it like being born that way or through some freak accident, it should be fine, right?

Like Psychic said, it depends wholly on the genre. I wouln't put my characters through an anime related litmus test because the things just aren't applicible. Like for instance there was one question asking if the character was wearing black. Umm. Yeah. Wearing black is the sign of a sue. Never mind if he or she is a covert ops specialist designed to work under cover of darkness wearing a black uniform.

To go with elvorg's comment, they do tend to ask for long explainations. I love how the tests all pyut singing as a possible sue trait when all it is is a hobby. I mean. How can singing be a sue? Sucks to be Dazzler from X-Men then. She made a whole carrer singing while being an X-Man. That and it goes perfectly with her sound based mutant powers.

Oh and that reminds me. The tests often ask if he/she is royalty. Again, I ask how is that a sue characteristic when there are tons of characters from Princess Jasmine from Aladdin to Princess Koriand'r (Starfire) who has some pull in government or are well off. To me, that's only a small part of who they are and one has to look deeper to see who they really are underneath the skin. You aren't going to call He-Man a Stu when in reality he's Prince Adam of Eternia.

So, social status really shouldn't be considered a sue trait and quizes lose points with me if they ask "Is he/she royalty?" Many characters in literature have been royalty and still manage to be great characters. That part just bugs me because you wouldn't go up to the princes of the UK and say "You're a stu! You're a prince and you joined the army!" That is if you can get within two yards of him...

I do have a question though. About hair color. How does it make it a Sue/Sue if He or she got green hair through birth like Polaris of the X-Men or through an accident like the Joker? Hair color shouldnt be a sue characteristic as people do also dye their hair. Check out fans of punk rock and you'll see what I mean. So, I'm just wondering about that. If there's a reason behind it, does that make them less of a sue/stu?

Anyway, I do like elvorg's link the best. Elvorg hit on the good points of the test. but, as a whole, they are kind of annoying because well some of the questions don't apply. I love the "Did your character feel responsible for a tragedy?" That points the finger at Batman and Spider-Man doesn't it? I don't see how that applies. But, then again I really want to see a test that does apply to my characters.

I've seen the pokemon one. That was an insane read.

LX

Edit: Dragonfree has a point though. Most tests do miss the point. I've put myself through a test. Damn. LOL. That was insane.

 

[elyvorg]

The problem with complaining that these individual traits on their own make your character a Sue is that no-one said they did. The tests aren't geared so that you tick one box and suddenly your character is an irredeemable Sue; in fact, if your character didn't tick any boxes, it might potentially be even worse because a character not having anything slightly remarkable about them would almost seem like you were deliberately trying to avoid a high score on a litmus test, which isn't the point. These tests are designed so that having an unusual amount of these traits might lead to your character being a Sue - note the might - but not so that you should think there's something inherently wrong with having a small few of them. And I think most of the tests do allow for things being normal in the given universe - such as oddly coloured hair in an animé universe and the like. If they don't, then it's probably excusable for you to avoid ticking such boxes if it is the norm for your 'verse, regardless of whether it tells you you can or not.

Dragonfree is completely right though in that it's the mindset rather than the symptoms which ultimately make a Sue. The tests might help, but they can only ever give a vague indication of whether there might be something wrong with your character; they can never be the ultimate diagnosis.

I do agree with you, though, Ledian_X, in that litmus tests are rarely compatible with the superhero genre where having powers is pretty much a given for your main characters. But who knows - there could be some superhero-specific tests out there if you look hard enough. After all, the original and most commonly used Mary-Sue test started off for just one fandom until it was expanded to fanfiction in general.

 

[Ledian_X]

Eh, I'll see if I can find one. It's just that there aren't many fanfics starring Spidey or something on various message boards about comics. There's a bunch at ff.net but they aren't really discussed like on a board like this. Everyone really just discusses what the pros do with characters. And with changing hands of writers, it can seem like bad fanfic in some cases, elyvorg.

I do have a question about the test. How can not ticking off a box make things worse? Like if I didn't tick this one off:

[]I didn't used to be known as Norad, but now that I write about her I ask my friends to call me that, or I use Norad as a handle on Internet message boards or chatlines.

Does that refer to self inserts? The first bit of that terst does say mirror, mirror. I guess they're referring to if the character's a self insert. Then it goes onto cool factor, backstory, trauma and the baddies think he/she is hot.

In Norad's case I'd be worried. He's a sentient android. Though he is a robot, he is alive. That brings me to the next question. How do you test some character that is neither male nor female. Has no emotions. And is basically a walking supercomputer? Perhaps there should be an "It" category. Or just classify it by gender.

I do agree that this test is the best in that it allows for some little things. There was this other quiz that was just insane. I had used one of my supers and at the end it listed him as a stu because he had large wings growing out of his back. It's a mutation. I think it was an anime quiz, too. I need to find a comic one but like I said, there might not be one.

Maybe I can make one....

LX

Edit: Wow. I found one. Let's see how it fairs. Here's the link. What do you guys think? http://www.subreality.com/marysue/cb-litmus.htm

Edit 2: Tried it and it isn't bad. Not great. It had more to do with characters in canon than anything else. Like saving Spidey's butt or busting into the X-Mansion witht he X-Men being happy about it and Prof X giving ya the tour. I got 16/180. Which means it's an original character and a Non sue. Cool I guess. Will see if I can find more.

 

[Silawen]

I think these litmus tests work if you critically look at the test and deduce whether or not it fits your source-character. General tests are, in general, inaccurate, because they focus on general Sue-traits and might not fit all fandoms. When using those, you have to keep in mind it is rating your character globally, and is probably better off being used as a tool to warn you when you're being excessive, or point out certain established Sue-traits you might not have been aware of.

However, there are also fandom specific litmus tests, and these should be regarded closely. They have been written for the fandom your character is supposed to fit in, and is thus probably a lot more accurate and trustworthy. For instance, I know a couple of Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings litmus tests exist, and these are really great. Not so much, of course, for characters of other fandoms, but definitely for the ones inhabiting those specifically mentioned.

When looking for a fitting litmus test, it is probably best to find a fandom-specific one, or at least one for a fandom that closely resembles yours. For instance, a writer looking for a litmus test to use for his Spiderman-based character might use one written for X-Men, or vice versa.

Litmus tests can be great tools, you just need to know how to use them. They weren't written specifically to test your character, after all, they were written to test a large array of different ones, and they might not always fit the fandom you had in mind.

 

[BladedScizor]

Hmmm...

Mark Rowley isn't a character: he's you, or you as you'd like to be. He is not at all cool; in fact, he thinks cool is a temperature reading, and when he says "Oh, I just put on whatever old thing's lying around," he means "on the floor, where I threw it last night - but I turned the underwear inside out first." There's never been anything special about him that he could see; boy, is he in for a surprise. He's got no emotional scars to speak of. And he's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you care deeply about Mark Rowley, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Mark Rowley is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.

Looks like it works to me.


But seriously, I'm going to have to agree that tests like that aren't a fully reliable way to determine if a character is a Sue/Stu or not, it's more a matter of how the story depicts them.

A character can have crazy superpowers, a tragic past, and the body of Adonis, and yet still avoid being a Stu if written right. Conversely, a character with no unusual powers and several blatantly written 'weaknesses' can still look like a Sue/Stu if written carelessly.

Anyway, tests like this look like they can be a decent indicator if a writer's character is a Sue/Stu, but they aren't a perfect substitute for good, objective reviews or betaing.

 

[Divinity_123]

Our results are practically the same BladedScizor lol

Taylor Navarro is suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. He is not at all cool; in fact, he thinks cool is a temperature reading, and when he says "Oh, I just put on whatever old thing's lying around," he means "on the floor, where I threw it last night - but I turned the underwear inside out first." There's never been anything special about him that he could see; boy, is he in for a surprise. He's had more than his fair share of hard knocks, and probably spends more time than he ought moaning about it. And you've been sparing with the free handouts: whatever he gains, he's worked for.

In general, you care deeply about Taylor Navarro, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Taylor Navarro is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.

Oh and I clicked on the second Litmus test Ledian_X linked and was REALLY confused for a while. It took me a really long time to realize that it was a comic-book Mary-Sue litmus test! XD

Does your character fall in love with a canon character?

* With Gambit?
* With Chamber?
* With Nightwing?
* With Rogue?
* With Songbird?
* With Wolverine?

x_X


EDIT: Then there's the part about the Senshi Pen :|

 

[Ledian_X]

Divinity, I think the author of the test I found was more concerned with characters having been saved by/rescued/fallen in love with canon characters and that list of characters are characters many people write having relations with. And damn...a relationship with Rogue?! What a way to go.

I'm going to see if I can find a better test than that one. Seems okay for a comic test but it's missing something other tests mention. History.

LX

Edit: Eh...I know you can have all those traits but not be a sue. But, what about female clones of Wolverine that has all his powers and abilities. That and triple the angst? There's a canon character named that and her name is X-23. I should run her through this mess. Not a fan of her at all.

 

[Ysavvryl]

I put a few of my characters through that Katfeete test. Apparently my art geek is the coolest of the four and the RPG character I created to compete with other Mary-Sues is in fact a perfectly normal character.

So, either being an art geek is cooler than I thought or you have to take these things with a grain of salt. I'd guess the latter (although I do like art geeks...). But it does point out weak points in character development, and warns you of when you've gone overboard with something. It can be helpful.