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Long Live the Reckless and the Brave! (Autumn Friendly Team/VGC)

Discussion in 'Older Gen RMT' started by jstinftw!, Sep 7, 2012.


After taking a look at the team, what do you think?

  1. I think it's great! Good job!

  2. Not too shabby.

  3. You should probably go back and reevaluate your team building.

  1. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hontoni

    (Because I Always Try to Be Polite)

    |Mac Miller|Minion|LG|Justin|Alaric|Oracle|Darach|
    "Knowledge is the key to battling!"

    Hello, Serebii! Once again, I am doing an RMT on my VGC Doubles team. What’s more, it’s a Trick Room team, a style that I am generally comfortable with, seeing as my most successful Doubles teams (and I guess my worst Doubles teams too XD) were Trick Room teams.

    Another thing, this is the team I will be using in the Autumn Friendly, an upcoming official Wi-Fi Tournament.

    (Laying It Out Easy for You)

    The whole purpose of this team is to counter the main threats in this metagame while still being able to function when I come across unorthodox teams. Of course, because it is a Trick Room team, I need to be able to set up quickly and successfully in order to allow my team to be an offensive threat. I also need to be able to defeat my opponent quickly, as I am under a timer when Trick Room sets up.

    An idea I’ve been playing with in my head was a speedy Blizzard. A lot of the metagame is weak to Ice moves, so my idea is to exploit that weakness.

    Background Information

    (aka Why I’m a Frustrating Person to Build Teams With and Why I’ll Never Be a Successful Player)

    1. I do not like to play standard Pokemon. I understand this could be the difference between me winning and losing, but I always want to be creative within reason.
    2. This is for VGC Style Battling. That means Double Battles, 4v4, No Sleep Clause, Species Clause, etc. For more information, click me.
    3. I don’t like Legendaries. More specifically, I don’t like to use them. It’s cool if you do, I don’t. I will find something else to do the exact same thing instead.
    4. I’m a bit gimmicky. It doesn’t really show through, since I don’t really create gimmick teams, but I do like a good gimmick or two. If there’s an interesting gimmick that you think can work, suggest away!
    5. Thanks for rating! I really appreciate any help I can get. I love talking Pokemon with people. :)

    Team Building Process
    (Why I Do These, I'll Never Understand)

    Frost Forme
    I decided on starting off with Choice Scarf Rotom-F. With the right EVs, first move Blizzard would severely damage threatening Pokemon like Zapdos, Latios, Garchomp, Hydreigon, etc, OHKOing a lot of them early on.

    Of course, a Prankster Thunder Wave would solve that, or a Fake Out. Just one turn delay could mean losing Rotom, as well as the match. My biggest concern, though, was Hitmontop. So, I decided to tack on my next Pokemon.

    Frost Forme
    Gliscor. Hyper Cutter stopped Intimidate, Flying Gem Acrobatics OHKOed, and Earthquake paired with Rotom-F was really nice.

    But Gliscor could only do so much. I wanted something that could serve as late game muscle, as well as to deal with Cresselia since those would likely be equipped with Ice Beam.

    Frost Forme
    Heracross was my answer. Fighting types are awesome. It outspeed Cresselia with a STAB Megahorn that hits everything hard, boosted by Guts, and Close Combat is nothing to scoff at either.

    With that in mind, I figured I’d need some rain counters, or things that could function if Rain ever came up.

    Frost Forme
    Starmie and Amoonguss were my solution. Starmie could pull of Thunders, as well as resist Water moves and hit back with a powerful Hydro Pump. It could also clean up whatever Rotom-F might not finish. Amoonguss was added for the resistance, access to Spore, functionality in Trick Room, and Giga Drain, to help deal with Gastrodon. Rage Powder was also very nice, in order to protect its partners in times of need.

    So that left one more spot. I decided that I could go for an alternate lead for Rotom-F, in case Rain was not a problem but Fake Out or Thunder Wave was.

    Frost Forme
    Togekiss has amazing bulk, amazing Special Attack, and a very nice movepool. I noticed my team could have problems with Metagross, and Togekiss could learn Fire Blast, so I went with her. Follow Me was also very nice.

    This was the original team idea, since I had wanted to try and branch away from Trick Room. However, I decided that I didn’t like the team’s set up, seeing as I did not deal with Trick Room at all. It basically just felt unstable, and unreliable. So I went back in and made some adjustments.

    So I went with my core idea, and added Trick Room. Starmie and Gliscor both ahd to go; Starmie was too frail, nor was it getting in any important Kos, while Gliscor was a not-as-good lead in comparison to Togekiss. Both were also too fast.

    Frost Forme

    I decided to go with Reuniclus this time around, since I wanted my Trick Roomer to be offensive and bulky. Reuniclus also had access to Psyshock, which is an incredible blessing due to Hitmontop being more Specially Defensive since they had Intimidate, and Recover, allowing it to try and survive longer than normal.

    So, one more spot. Steel types are a blessing in this metagame; that Dragon resist is beautiful. Most opt for Metagross, and I almost did. Metagross aren’t often seen Special, so I almost went with that, but I decided in the end that Metagross was much better off Physical. And I didn’t want Physical Metagross. Nor did I want to run Scizor again; everyone knows what to do with Scizor.

    Frost Forme

    So the obvious answer was Bisharp. Takes on Cress fairly easily, can try and dent Hitmontop with Intimidate-boosted-Defiant and Aerial Ace. Iron Head hitting everything fairly hard. What more could I want?

    Actually, just a bit more. Despite every team needing a Steel type, the main reason you want a Steel type isn't the same reason you run Bisharp. Bisharp's defenses are pretty low; meaning, it may resist a Draco Meteor, but it won't survive much more than that. So, one final edit:
    Frost Forme

    Empoleon. While not exactly your premier Steel type, it still resists Dragons fairly well, takes neutral damage from your standard go-to Steel counter, Fire attacks, and can still hit back with a Super Effective Ice attack. Also, works well against Sand, resisting most moves carried by Tyranitar (barring Low Kick).
    I've also been watching the anime lately, and Piplup is adorable!

    Meet the Team
    (And Point Out All Their Flaws, You Monster)

    I need help with the EV spreads; I try to do calcs on my own, but a second opinion is immensely helpful


    Alaric (Reuniclus) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Psychic
    - Recover/Energy Ball/Shadow Ball
    - Trick Room
    - Focus Blast​

    Overview: Obviously the team's spearhead. I'm a big believer in holding only one Trick Room Pokemon, as having a second one oftentimes leaves me quite limited in terms of team selection.

    Anyways, Alaric is named after Alaric from the Vampire Diaries TV series. Alaric has a ring that prevents him from dying due to unnatural forces, much like Reuniclus's ability, preventing him from taking indirect damage.

    The sole reason I'm using the less bulky Reuniclus instead of my old Musharna is because of the power Reuniclus is capable of. That being said, why not increase the damage output with Life Orb?

    Magic Guard allows Alaric to abuse Life Orb, take on Hail and Sand, nullify Burns and Poison, all without taking damage.

    Reuniclusis set up so that it can still OHKO everything it needs to, while adding overall bulk in its HP and survive an unboosted Crunch from Tyranitar. Most Pokemon (barring Scizor, Chandelure, and Hydreigon) need to take 2HKOs in order to take him down.

    Quiet lets him get really slow, while still boostin his Special Attack. Again, he's meant to set up Trick Room and then start dishing out the pain.

    Trick Room is obvious, as it is the main strategy. Originally I ran Psyshock, but after running some calcs, Reuniclus OHKOs more Pokemon with Psychic than he does with Psyshock. Focus Blast allows him to avoid being walled by Steels, as well as hit back at Super Effective Dark type Pokemon, such as T-Tar and Hydreigon (unfortunately, both 2HKOs, but at least I can hit them hard). Now, for the final slot, I was torn between three moves: Energy Ball, Recover, and Shadow Ball. Shadow Ball lets him take on Cress and Chandelure. Energy Ball lets him take on Rain teams more easily, as well as Gastrodon. Recover allows him to survive. I currently am going with Recover, but it's still up to testing. Added bulk lets him stay in longer to Trick Room, but he doesn't always survive in order to do so. So I'm still on the rocks about the final slot.

    Oracle (Togekiss) (F) @ Power Anklet
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Air Slash
    - Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball
    - Fire Blast
    - Follow Me​

    So normal problem with Trick Room; Reuniclus might not be able to set up. Be it through Imprison, Fake Out, Taunt, OHKO, ganging up, etc. Reuniclus is holding a Life Orb, so what happens if it gets Taunted? That's where Togekiss comes in.

    Oracle is the name given to Barbara Gordon when she becomes paralysed from the waist down, and takes over as the support unit for Batman and his sidekicks. Barbara then takes up as Batgirl again when her back is fixed, and kicks butt. How is that relevant to Togekiss? She's a winged creature, like Batman's usual group of sidekicks, she serves as support for her team like the Oracle, and kicks butt like Batgirl. I like Oracle over everything else, so that's what I went with.

    You're probably thinking "n00b, what are you doing? Power Anklett doesn't do anything!" Let's talk about the Choice Scarf; what does it do? Speed your Pokemon up by multiplying its Speed by 50%, while locking your Pokemon into one move. What does Power Anklet do besides help you EV train? Slow you down by cutting your Speed in half. Togekiss' base 80 Speed drops to base 40. In most cases, this is bad. In Trick Room, this is good. It's like the Trick Room Choice Scarf, without being choiced.

    Serene Grace for that beautiful hax. Togekiss has two moves that have side effects, in Air Slash's flinch and Fire Blast's Burn.

    Full HP to increase survivability. I played around with some EV spreads, but to be honest, besides investing full into another stat (and even then), Togekiss doesn't survive very much more than it would running just full HP. So, to increase damage output, Togekiss' Special Attack was maxed out. Base 125 Special Attack is actually a very nice stat.

    Quiet drops her Speed to about 70, meaning, with Power Anklet, she sits at base 35. Boost to her Special Attack so she can hit as hard as possible, since, again, she really doesn't survive much even with the extra boosts.

    Follow Me allows Reuniclus to set up Trick Room no matter what the opponent throws. Taunt, nothing. I barely use Follow Me more than for set up anyways. Attack, Togekiss will survive most gang ups. Imprison, well. Unless Chandelure is running Fire Blast, it really doesn't matter. Air Slash so that she can have some sort of STAB, plus flinch is nice. Fighting has great coverage, so Aura Sphere definitely has some great utility. Terakkion gets OHKO'd, and it allows me to hit certain Steel types like Heatran, and Empoleon, as well as Dark Types like Tyranitar. Fire Blast rounds it all off so I can hit Metagross and Scizor, as well as some choice Ice types that might survive Aura Sphere. Why not Heat Wave? Spread, Heat Wave does less than Flamethrower, plus the overwhelming power helps me get some choice OHKOs, and specific 2HKOs.

    Lady GaGa (Amoonguss) (M) @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Effect Spore
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Rage Powder
    - Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Protect​

    I'm not running Amoonguss JUST because of Spore. That's only a plus. I'm particularly running Amoonguss because of Rage Powder; sometimes, Togekiss will be slaughtered. Amoonguss helps serve the exact same role for support, but focuses more on being support. Also, Amoonguss allows me to put some pressure on Rain teams. He also resists Fighting type moves, which is amazing.

    I originally went with Pokerface, but I felt that Lady GaGa was funnier. I like it haha.

    Mental Herb allows Amoonguss to take a Taunt, although in many cases, will most likely not be able to use anything besides Giga Drain afterwards.

    I can't get Regenerator for tournaments yet, so I'm making do with Effect Spore until then.

    Amoonguss will most likely be taking hits on the Special side, since most of its common weaknesses are Special Attacks. Beefing up its already great Special Defense stat ensures it survives for a 2-3HKO.

    Relaxed allows her to survive most Physical Attacks for a 2HKO, while the Speed drop allows her to outslow most Amoonguss running Bold or Calm.

    Rage Powder allows its partner to set up or attack unscathed, much like Togekiss. Protects helps stall in case it needs to survive, while Spore helps eliminate one threat for a few turns, helping bide time for its partner to get the job done. Giga Drain allows her to escape being Taunt fodder, while also allowing some utility against Pokemon weak to Grass. Giga Drain also helps survivability.

    LG (Rotom-F) @ Power Lens
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Blizzard
    - Protect
    - Will-o-Wisp/Thunder​

    Now, my original team plan was to spam powerful Blizzards, since many popular Pokemon are so popular in VGC. Rotom-F was the best choice for this, having STAB Ice, utility in Rain, and a great ability in Levitate, giving its partner some space in case I needed to Earthquake. All my Earthquakers are gone now though. But

    LG is a popular fridge brand, and I liked it more than Sears.

    Refer to Togekiss.

    Levitate is really the only ability it can have, so might as well.

    Maximum damage intake, since splitting it doesn't allow it to survive anything too critical, and maximum damage output.

    Quiet brings its Speed down to about base 76, allowing its final base Speed stat to land at 36. Slow enough for Trick Room, I think.

    Thunderbolt is obvious STAB, allowing Rotom to do something else besides Blizzard, should it need to. Blizzard is the reason I chose Rotom-F, so it only makes sense that it's on the team. I'm replacing Thunder with Will-o-wisp to help out Heracross, but Thunder was so that it can hit as hard as possible in Rain. I'm not sure which one will be more handy though. And Protect is obvious.

    Minion (Heracross) (M) @ Iron Ball
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spd
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Protect​

    Fighting types are, in my opinion, almost as useful as having a Dragon on your team. While I could go the Dragon route, I decided that I was more worried about Cresselia than I was about having a Dragon to a.)overpower everyone and b.)counter Dragons with. That's my other Pokemon's job.

    Minion is something I took from Megamind. I don't know why I felt it was an appropriate name, but I'm going for it regardless.

    Iron Ball allows Heracross to slow down, much like Togekiss and Rotom-F, but at the same time, can help deal with Trick Pokemon. The most common user of Trick is Rotom, and having the Iron Ball drag it to the ground leaves it susceptible to Earthquake. Unfortunately, no one on my team carries Earthquake, but I maybe get lucky and its partner will try it out.

    When people see Heracross, they automatically try to figure out its ability. If Heracross Protects turn 1, it's most likely going to be a Guts user, and thus, burning it, or paralyzing it, is counterproductive. But if it doesn't, or it doesn't get the Toxic/Flame Orb infliction, the automatic assumption is that it's Moxie. So they can proceed to Will-o-Wisp it, or paralyze it. Little did they know, that Heracross really is just waiting for that opportunity. Guts allows Heracross to pretty much stand firm when he comes out, as he'll no longer worry about status problems.

    Standard as bulky as possible while dishing out as much damage as possible. Again, as it seems to be a theme amongst my team, EVs in other stats don't really let it survive anything it would or wouldn't already.

    Brave lets it slow down to a base stat of 75, which halved is about 37, 38. Again, Trick Room material!

    Megahorn is for Cresselia and Latios. Cress is pretty much KO'd, especially if Heracross has status. Close Combat is just to dish out as much damage as possible, hitting T-Tar, Terrakion, etc. Both, when under status, OHKO pretty much everything. Without status, they still have great chances of OHKOing everything (81.25% specifically). Stone Edge is for Zapdos, as Rock Slide is severely underpowered, and Protect is a just in case thing.

    Darach (Empoleon) (M) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Sp.Attk / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature (+Sp.Atk, -Spd)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Grass Knot
    - Protect​

    The final member of the team, as well as what I feel may be the weakest link, simply because I feel his set is so simple. He takes hits while still being as offensive as possible.

    Darach, as many know, is the name of Caitlin's Butler from the DPPtHGSS Battle Frontier. Empoleon reminds me of a butler, so rather than going the easy way with Alfred, or Pennyworth, I went with Darach.

    Chople Berry lets Empoleon cope with his fatal Fighting weakness, which is a huge pain with Hitmontop running around like crazy.

    Torrent is the only ability currently viable, otherwise, I'd be running a Physical variant with Defiant.

    Once again, Empoleon doesn't survive very much more than he wouldn't if he ran more defensive EVs, but he gets closer to KOing other Pokemon with full investment.

    Quiet allows him to hit harder, since 111 Sp.Attk stat is only decent at best.

    Hydro Pump for powerful STAB. Blizzard to counter Dragons, which is his main calling. Now, why am I running Blizzard over Ice Beam? Well. I honestly am a big risk taker; I'll hit something if I use Blizzard. The raw power of Blizzard is just more enticing than the safe Ice Beam for me. I'm testing it though. I'm running Flash Cannon for now because I don't have time/the capability of breeding in HP Fire. I'm honestly more worried about being able to take on an Ice type than Gastrodon. HP Fire would be so much more convenient though. And Protect, once again, for survivability.

    Closing Remarks
    (I've Rambled On Long Enough)

    So that's the team! Let me know what you all think! I'll probably edit in later some lead strategies and such, once I get a bit more practice in. Thanks for reading!
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  2. SkyDriver

    SkyDriver Hiding in the grass

    Seems like a great team, but here are my comments:

    You seem to not have enough spread moves, beside Blizzard, therefore I recommend Rock Slide > SE on herracross, also has nice flinching chance, as well as better accuracy and is safer, due to the omnipresent Protect.

    On Reuniclus, use Shadow Ball for unresisted coverage. In doubles you more often than not lose more Hp than you can recover, meaning it is useless.

    Great team and good luck in the tournament.

    [size=-2]P.S. I like your sense of humor xD[/size]
  3. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hontoni

    Thanks! Glad to see some feedback. :)

    On the note about spread, I personally do not like spread quite as much. A lot of times, it leaves you doing less damage than it would have had you just directly attacked. However, Blizzard is my exception, as most Pokemon that are hit by Blizzard are Pokemon that need to go down, and Ice Beam doesn't have that power. Rock Slide, on the other hand, actually is much weaker (75%) and while the accuracy is a bit lower, at least it hits harder.

    I'll test out the Reuniclus Shadow Ball. I've been playing Doubles for a little over a year, and I used to have a Recover Jellicent that worked wonders. Survivability is really nice when I'm worried about a timed strategy timing out. But maybe I won't need it if I can hit hard, so I'll see. :)

    Thanks again for the rate! I'm glad it was enjoyable as well. :D

    Also, I noticed that Eaglehawk said I needed to go back and rethink my team building. Why do you say that? What is it that you don't like? I mean, what am I supposed to do with "It's not good." I'm not trying to scope him out, I just want to clarify that it would always be better to actually say why you think something is bad, so that you can help. That is what these threads are for right?
  4. jeffdavid102

    jeffdavid102 TSS Forever

    Use Discharge>Tbolt on Rotom.

    You spoke about no one having EQ many times, but you need to fix this. You have two Pokemon immune to it, 2 neutral, 1 resist, and only one Pokemon takes super effective damage. So most of your team can take EQs.

    Also, try using spread moves. You said that they don't hit as hard. However, if you use Helping Hand, their power will be boosted to 112.5%, hitting slightly harder than usual. Think about adding that to Togekiss along with EQ to another Pokemon. Heracross can also learn Helping Hand.

    I would run Air Balloon on Empoleon, though Shuca berry works too.

    Heracross is your only physical attacker. This is a big problem, especially considering that you aren't running Psyshock on Reuniclus. I know you said Psychic KOs more, but the rest of your team can handle those Pokemon. Psyshock kills the Pokemon that Psychic doesn't hit as hard. A great Pokemon to use would be Rhyperior to replace one of your special attackers. It's slow and powerful along with getting STAB on two common spread moves: Rock Slide and Earthquake.

    Run Surf on Empoleon for spread.

    You need another Trick Room user. Victini could work, because it runs a good phsical set and the speed drop from V-Create favors Trick Room.

    Hope this helps, and sorry, but I'm not good at suggesting which Pokemon to replace.
  5. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hontoni

    I don't have anything that'll resist/be immune to it, plus I don't like Discharge. The power deficit is too noticeable, as I'll be unable to get a few needed KOs. Plus, as I said, I don't like spread.
    True, but I don't really need it. The only notable Pokemon I'd be hitting is Metagross, and Togekiss' Fire Blast is more than capable of OHKOing Metagross than an Earthquake.

    While I do like Helping Hand, Helping Hand takes away from coverage that I need. My team as a whole would benefit so much more if they could have a 5th move, so taking away something from one of them would be too much. And again, I don't like Spread. 75% of the original power really doesn't fly with me, especially when I'm working under a time limit that is easily stalled, and I need to net KOs as quick as I can.

    My original thoughts too, but while it would seem that everyone would just run Earthquake, virtually no one actually does. Earthquake is too powerful to let one of your teammates eat, even if they resist it. And Protect wastes a turn, and EQ would only even do 75 base damage anyways. There's no need to worry about Ground attacks.

    Still testing Psyshock vs. Psychic, but Psychic seems to net more kills than Psyshock would. The reason for the lack of physical Pokemon is that I do not want to eat an Intimidate. Intimitop is stupid common, and getting a -1 or -2 is not something fun for my physical attackers.

    No one really resists it, so I'd really only be hurting my partners.

    Victini is illegal. :( And I also mentioned that I do not appreciate Legendary Pokemon on my team. :(

    Hahah no problem. Thank you for trying though! I'll definitely come back and take a look if I find anything specifically problematic. :) I appreciate the effort!

    Sorry if it seems as if I'm just shooting your suggestions down. I really did think about your suggestions (barring spread; as I said before, I have specific reasons for not using Spread).
  6. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hontoni

    Any other takers? Obviously, there were flaws spotted, as there are two people telling me that I should go back and reevaluate my team building.

    Why should I do that? What did you see that was so terribly wrong that I should go back and fix it? What should I fix? Thank you for answering the poll, but it's a bit useless if I don't know what's wrong. What should I be looking for? What should I even be looking at? I believe that is the point of these forums, is it not?
  7. drizzleboy12

    drizzleboy12 2nd VGC MA regional

    lol you posted this on nugget bridge and serebii. Did you post on smogon? anyway I gave my advise on nugget bridge but I thought of something else.

    I think over your Heracross you should have scizor he is slow and he is a bug type

    Scizor @ occa berry/Lum berry
    EVs: 252 HP 252 Att 4 SpD
    Adamant nature
    -Bug Bite
    -Bullet punch

    Not much to say about this set.... other than you get two stabs bug bite and bullet punch. Also you get a fighting attack.

    And on togekiss give him a sitrus berry and over fire blast give him heat wave.

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