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"Lost Heroes" Challenge/RMT

ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
Sorry for the uncreative title, I was aiming at something that sounded... not horrible.
Simply put, the "Lost Heroes Challenge" thread definitely caught my eye and I think I'd like to give it a shot. Without further adieu, I'll present the team, with Lilligant as my Lost Hero.

Team Building process (if it interests you, otherwise skip right ahead). Fair warning, its big.
;38; ;637;​

Since about the day Serebii.net had a full list of sprites and stats of all the fully evolved Unova mons, Volcarona/Ulgamoth stood out to me above all else. And when further details began coming in (moves, translations, all the stuff we were drooling over back then). And, I have been absolutely in love with Volcarona, as my avvy/sig may indicate. Building a Sunny Day abusing team around this beast was a priority... and then Drought Ninetales was released. Yeah, you can guess I was pretty happy. Ninetales was my support, Volcarona my new baby.

;38; ;637; ;586;​

Next, I thought a Chlorophyll Abuser would be a logical step. After experimenting around with Tangrowth, Shiftry, and Exeggutor, I found them just... too slow. I gave serious thought to Chlorophyll Leafeon, but decided Sawsbuck may be more useful on account of actually having a movepool.

;38; ;637; ;586; ;134;​

Since I had 2 Fire types and a Grass type, with a notable Gyarados issue, I at first thought "Drought and Water type... obviously not going to work". After awhile, it dawned on me that opposites not only attract, they also have an indescribable synergy. Yin and Yang. Vaporeon has always been successful for me, and while she is overall very uncomfortable under the sun destroying Scald, it worked fair enough in my mind that she counters tyranitar, Politoed, Hippowdon, and Gyarados in one bundle, with Wish to boot.

;38; ;637; ;586; ;134; ;237;​

I noticed I had a few issues still unchecked. Volcarona absolutely under any condition needs a Spinner, something to take Rock moves, and swat down Tyranitar (whom really can't stand against Vaporeon and Sawsbuck anyway). The team was, so far, Specially defensive, so Intimidate Hitmontop seemed like a great fit.

;38; ;637; ;586; ;134; ;237; ;381;​

Finally, I noted that Volcarona, Ninetales, and Hitmontop possesed great Steel breaking power, with none left unchecked. I thought "well, plenty of great Dragons to pick from" and eventually stuck to Latios, who made a pretty killer sweeping duo with Volcarona. His great Speed, power, and a few tricks up his sleeve seemed like a match made in heaven.

So what went wrong?​

Sawsbuck was horrible. Too frail to get into the fray, needed Swords Dance and Life Orb to accomplish ANYTHING, and was generally utilized as a very brittle meat shield or speedbump against all who opposed me. Dragons just laughed, Salamence above all else, while Gyarados, of all things, put a dead stop if the dang thing actually got a boost. It had to go. But a Chlorophyll sweeper was a must.

;38; ;637; ;549; ;134; ;237; ;381;​

After quite awhile of lurking and a retry of odd Chlorophyll users, Tangrowth again, and almost giving up on Drought abuse in general I dug up a gem in that abyss we call RU. The moveset was found by a friend of mine, who found it in an old Smogon RMT. My God... Lilligant is absolutely a strange case of supporter or sweeper, but after some tweaking on EVs and dropping a move for Aromatherapy, I had ended up with the perfect blend of supporter, status inducer, cleric, revenge killer, and an extra artillery piece right alongside Latios. Things were much better with that stupid deer gone. But Hitmontop was... sort of the new speedbump/meat shield, and generally was not going well.
A few fighting types, spinners, failures, and liters of soda later... I ended up at Cobalion, and in all irony checked out the Lost Heroes thread, and thought "hell, a third of my team qualifies on complete accident. Cool".​


The team at a glance:​
;38; ;637; ;549; ;121; ;645; ;381;

038Ninetales.png


Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 64 HP/192 Sp. Atk/ 252 Speed
Nature: Timid
-Fire Blast
-Will-o-Wisp
-Solarbeam
-Hidden Power [Ice]

The obvious lifeblood of the team, Ninetales is there for a few reasons. She sets up Sunlight upon coming in, acts a decent bit of firepower (this poor pun has been dragged to death by now), and as an interesting way of screwing with Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Scizor, and Jellicent at times. Solaris not to be fired off blindly: believe me, I am very aware of what happens to a mispredicted Solarbeam. It is primarily used to slap around Drought weakened Water types and Ground type switchins, and after the initial Solarbeam, Tyranitar would kill to switch into it and eat my poor fox, only to be burned instead. Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon, Ground, and Flying switchins hard, while Fire Blast hits hard and consistent.
EVs are arranged to give a bit of bulk, plenty of power, and enough Speed to smack around non-Scarfed Haxorus.

Volcarona.png


Helios @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 80 HP/176 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
-Fiery Dance
-Quiver Dance
-Hidden Power [Ground]
-Bug Buzz

The cornerstone and primary sweeper the team itself was built around.
Volcarona aims to throw out a Quiver Dance as soon as the opponent is sufficiently battered down by Ninetales, Latios, and everyone else has taken their toll. The bulky spread allows the moth to survive 2 Stealth Rock switchins, if necessary, and allow him to tank hits on the Special side and increase the odds of living Sun weakened Aqua Jets, while retaining maximum Speed and significant offensive power.
Lum Berry prevents Thunder Waves, and most importantly Prankster Stun Spores from a certain ball of troll-err, cotton, and crippling Toxics. It feels... well, wrong to give him a Life Orb, being mauled by hazards of all forms more than basically anything I can imagine.
Hidden Power Ground was chosen to allow a Speed IV of 31, and to smack Heatran. I have doubts of its usefulness at times, maybe HP Electric for Gyarados and Jellicent, or Dark for Air Balloon Chandelure.

latios.jpg


Latios @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
Nature: Timid
-Draco Meteor
-Memento
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Fire]

Really, when you need something to crack a few skulls, revenge kill, and set up a certain moth for the checkmate, this is the way to go.
Draco Meteor, even though its typically unboosted, is very hard to stomach for the majority of OU, and all those Steel types that are normally very happy to come in typically fear a Sun Boosted HP Fire... though the fear is misplaced.
Thunderbolt is used over Surf for obvious reasons, and lets Latios put some hurt into the Water Types that may gain weather control. It also breaks Air Balloon Heatran's only hope of survival, and gives me something to blindly throw around. Gyarados really hates it as well :)
Hidden Power Fire adds coverage against Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Bronzong, and only leaves him walled by Heatran, who can be crushed by Landorus or, if needed, Volcarona.
Memento gives the great Dragon a final, devastating tool to not only evade Pursuit traps at low health, but also put Volcarona into a very dangerous advantage against most anything. After firing off Draco Meteor at low health, it keeps him dangerous.

121Starmie.png


Starmie @ Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
Nature: Timid
-Psyshock
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt

Tentacruel was... meh, but Starmie has so far picked up a lot of slack. The starfish is my Spinner, which is an absolute requirement with Volcarona and Ninetales. EVs are fairly standard for an offensive spinner like Starmie, maxing out damage and Speed to help in revenge killing fast threats like Terrakion, Virizion, Landorus, Tornadus, and Mienshao.
Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are the infamous BoltBeam on perhaps its best known user, and rarely disappoint. Starmie particularly loves it to nail plenty of Water, Grass, and Dragons, and still holding decent power over Ground with the lack of Hydro Pump. Psyshock murders Virizion, Conkeldurr, and Tentacruel, who are bulky enough to take the other attacks and lash out with a super effective attack, and even allows some psuedo-mixed attacking.
And the lovable little thing even handles status for me. Good bye Tentacruel, hello competent spinner/revenge killer/chipper/status sponge.

landorus_by_xous54-d3920rp.png


Gaia @ Life Orb (maybe Yache Berry)
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
-Earthquake
-Rock Polish
-Stone Edge
-U-Turn

I've tried more than a few physical attackers in this spot to cover weaknesses, smash a few pink eggs, and counter TF Snorlax. Mienshao, Cobalion, Torterra, Metagross, and Scrafty, I believe were most of them. Oh, and Conkeldurr. Believe me, they didn't work in one way or another.
Landorus' role is to troll U-Turn, which is as we all know extremely annoying, spam U-Turn to get matchups into my favor, crush Tyranitar, and act a strong physical attacker to balance out my 5 Special pokes while also checking Sand teams.
He also rolls a few things together from some of the aformentioned physical attackers: Mienshao's high damage output and scouting ability, high Speed, and good coverage, but also adds some useful resistances such as a Bug resist coupled with Defense (Volc and Ninetales don't take Megahorn and U-Turn very well), and an immunity to Electric, Ground, and Sandstorm, and even has his Water weakness patched by Ninetales, Latios, and Starmie.
EdgeQuake is the perfect coverage for Landorus, abusing STAB and Sand Force should I be facing Sandstream. U-Turn allows scouting, and getting better matchups against whatever Tyranitar runs to.
Rock Polish lets me setup if given a free turn, and bulldoze through Heavy Offense, and is faster than just about anything: even Chlorophyll boosted Sawsbuck/Leafeon fall short.
Life Orb is nice for damage, Yache can cover me from sneaky Ice Beams and Hidden Power Ice Mienshaos.

lilligant.jpg


Lilligant @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 32 HP, 248 Sp. atk, 4 Sp. Def, 224 Speed
Nature: Modest
-Leaf Storm
-Sleep Powder
-Solarbeam
-Hidden Power [Rock]

EVs updated.
Behold, my Lost Hero. Though with all respect she's at least equal to Latios in overall success.
My. God. Brace yourself for: more text wall. Sorry.
The EVs and such probably look confusing, so allow me to explain.
32 HP EVs hit 289 HP, rounding down Life Orb damage.
224 Speed hits 271 Speed, outrunning Timid SpecsToed and all Scizor, and hits a jaw-dropping 542 Speed that outruns Scarfed Timid Starmie and anything slower, which is basically 96%+ of OU.
248 Sp. Atk is to maximize damage output, scoring incredible damage with Leaf Storm and Solarbeam, which really gives opposing weather starters one hell of a bad day. The remaining EVs were placed in Sp. Def to take Surfs and Earth Powers better, and to prevent Download from raising Sp. Atk.
Now for moves. Leaf Storm seriously hits harder than my Latios' Draco Meteor, and OHKO's Landorus, Jellicent, 252/0 Gliscor, Politoed, Hippowdon, and Donphan no questions asked. Its a great way to hit and run, revenge kill, and really call down a hammer at a moments notice.
Sleep Powder, behind Chlorophyll's boost allows her to cripple anything I may need, and keeps her dangerous after firing off Leaf Storm and not being forced out.
Solarbeam further abuses Sun and her high Sp. Atk to hit hard without needing Leaf Storm, but is obviously useless outside Sunlight. It also allows a few 2HKO's on bulky DDGyara, Tornadus (50% min on 4/0 Timid), and pushes Naive 4/0 Salamence into Hidden Power Rock's KO range; all without Stealth Rock and Leaf Storm's side effect.
Hidden Power Rock decimates Volcarona and slams Dragonite and Salamence after Multiscale is broken. Generally, I fling Sleep Powder at Dragonite as it will survive Hidden Power even without Multiscale.
Generally, she murders something with Leaf Storm, debilitates something else with Sleep Powder, and causes a massive dent in something else on a bad day. I love it.

Issues


-Snorlax. Especially with Choice Band. Landorus is 2HKO'd by Sun Boosted Fire Punch, and is my only check. Oh well.
-Starmie. Ice Beam destroys Lilligant and Latios, Thunderbolt for Tentacruel, Hydro Pump for everything else. Lilligant outspeeds all versions, but can't directly switch into anything but Surf. My Starmie doesn't run HP Fire, thus can revenge non Scarf HP Fire versions.
-Tentacruel? Not no more.
-Mixed Ttar can crush Landorus via Ice Beam, may throw a Yache Berry on it for the funny.
-No hazards, no Magic Bounce. Its not a terrible loss overall.
-Trick Room. I have no Taunt, and my slowest poke is Lilligant out of sun, or Volcarona in sun. Reuniclus has no trouble getting it up either.

Thanks for withstanding the text wall and reading along :)
I am open for suggestions.
 
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SilentOmen

Shadow of Prophecy
You seem to have a good team. If you aren't set on running 2 lost heroes, you could decide on Scrafty to handle 2 of your problems. Starmie won't like DD boosted Crunch and Snorlax will cringe at Drain Punch (boosted or not). Ice Punch would also give you more to deal with some of the Dragons and Shed Skin can help deal with status abuse.

To help with Tentacruel, you could opt for a Starmie spinner instead. Instead of relying on a water attack, you could play with a Psychic / Surf / Scald, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin. STAB Psychic would brutalize tentacruel, Thunderbolt / Thunder to destroy any toeds who think rain was the best counter, Ice Beam adds coverage (of course). Rapid spin no brainer. Surf or scald are there if you HATE using a Psychic attack and feel recommending it was bad advice (but water attacks on sun teams aren't recommended either).
 

Vandslaux

Well-Known Member
Make Lilligant a bulky sweeper or use Venusaur.
 

ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
You seem to have a good team. If you aren't set on running 2 lost heroes, you could decide on Scrafty to handle 2 of your problems. Starmie won't like DD boosted Crunch and Snorlax will cringe at Drain Punch (boosted or not). Ice Punch would also give you more to deal with some of the Dragons and Shed Skin can help deal with status abuse.

To help with Tentacruel, you could opt for a Starmie spinner instead. Instead of relying on a water attack, you could play with a Psychic / Surf / Scald, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin. STAB Psychic would brutalize tentacruel, Thunderbolt / Thunder to destroy any toeds who think rain was the best counter, Ice Beam adds coverage (of course). Rapid spin no brainer. Surf or scald are there if you HATE using a Psychic attack and feel recommending it was bad advice (but water attacks on sun teams aren't recommended either).

I'm not entirely hell-bent on two heroes; Cobalion is replacable.
Scrafty... I like, as it keeps good physical bulk, still handles Tyranitar, and can keep opposing Lati@s from coming in easily. Drain Punch keeps him healthy while he goes and defo solves Snorlax. So simplistically, a set like Drain Punch/Crunch/Ice Punch/filler, with max HP/Atk and Adamant and maybe CB it? Or perhaps Dragon Dance as you said, one has inital power and one can set up and sweep if possible. Plus I already have a good Fighting resist on Latios and Volcarona, and Flying... well, nothings perfect.

Starmie, maybe Psyshock/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin, as that hurts even max HP/Def Tentacruel more than Psychic and allows some psuedo-mixed attacking, without worry of the current weather. I'm thinking Timid with Life Orb, or maybe some bluffing with Expert Belt and give Latios a Life Orb. Starmie also adds some Gyarados insurance, I think max Speed Starmie outruns a +1 max Speed Adamant Gyarados correct?

I'll work out a Scrafty setup, and definitely Starmie as Tentacruel seems to be most of my issues, especially mine. Makes a decent speedbump at least.

Make Lilligant a bulky sweeper or use Venusaur.

She has little hope of ever being bulky, honestly. I know the set seems odd, but she usually cripples something, murders something, and seriously dents something even on a bad day. Its not that Venusaur is bad, I just absolutely love that Lilligant :3


Also, I have no Stealth Rock on a 1v1 team.
 

SilentOmen

Shadow of Prophecy
Meh, add to the fact Cobalion wasn't exactly resistent to fighting attacks either and you're no worse for wear lol and you do lose an annoying ground and fire weakness.
 
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ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
Meh, add to the fact Cobalion wasn't exactly resistent to fighting attacks either and you're no worse for wear lol and you do lose an annoying ground and fire weakness.

True, but I've been honestly impressed with the number of things that thing has endured. Might try it more somewhere else, another team. Latios handled Ground, with plenty of Fire resists to go around :3

In terms of resistances, I lose a Poison immunity, for all that's worth, but looks like I have a solid Ghost resist to play with Bug still covered by the Fire types.
Also, here's what I've thrown into PO, for the suggested Scrafty and Starmie.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 32 HP/220 Sp. Atk/4 Sp. Def/252 Speed
Nature: Timid
-Psyshock
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt

*HP EVs to hit a LO number (269), 4 Sp. Def to prevent Download from boosting Sp. Atk. Remaining EVs for Speed and power.

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 200 HP/72 Atk/232 Speed
Nature: Jolly
-Drain Punch
-Dragon Dance
-Crunch
-Ice Punch

Hits 348 Speed after DD; outpaces Jolly Terrakion.
HP hits 321, Leftovers number +1, and remaining EVs to Atk.
I don't intend it as a setup sweeper, mostly to tank hits and boost up whenever he can, perhaps getting multiple boosts.

Its late for me, so I'll run PO tomorrow and see how it goes.
 
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ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
Alright, got some PO testing in. Most of them were ragequits (they were screwed anyway), but I must say I absolutely love this Starmie. Scrafty has been ok, but daaamn Starmie is leaps and bounds over the jellyfish. Thanks Omen, even your siggy brightens the day :p

So far, points have climbed from an abysmal... 640ish... to 1059. I know that's not really all that great, especially as you start at 1000, but its climbing steadily. I'm having a lot of trouble with VoltTurn, especially as I have no way to setup or even Bounce hazards. Last one I only won because Scizor burnt itself U-Turning my Volcarona switchin, and Jolteon never saw Latios' HP Ground coming. Which is hax+shaky prediction. Pretty funny though.

Think there's anyway to slot in Stealth Rock? Maybe Metagross or something similar; I definitely need a strong Physical attacker for Snorlax.
 

SilentOmen

Shadow of Prophecy
Alright, got some PO testing in. Most of them were ragequits (they were screwed anyway), but I must say I absolutely love this Starmie. Scrafty has been ok, but daaamn Starmie is leaps and bounds over the jellyfish. Thanks Omen, even your siggy brightens the day :p

So far, points have climbed from an abysmal... 640ish... to 1059. I know that's not really all that great, especially as you start at 1000, but its climbing steadily. I'm having a lot of trouble with VoltTurn, especially as I have no way to setup or even Bounce hazards. Last one I only won because Scizor burnt itself U-Turning my Volcarona switchin, and Jolteon never saw Latios' HP Ground coming. Which is hax+shaky prediction. Pretty funny though.

Think there's anyway to slot in Stealth Rock? Maybe Metagross or something similar; I definitely need a strong Physical attacker for Snorlax.

The only issue with running a stealth rocks counter is that you'd also want a spin blocker. A Landorus could help in place of Scrafty. With a Hammer arm it can still smack down on Snorlax and Tyranitar. Earthquake and Stone Edge will hammer away Volt Turn abusers and Swords Dance or Rock Polish respectively for whichever stat you want to boost. Add Sand Force into the equation and you have a pretty solid sand team check too. Because of Landorus' typing, it's immune to volt switch and resistant to u-turn. It does have the misfoturne of adding an ice weakness to your team. However, considering most Ice attacks are coming from water types or Mamoswine.... I think you have your counters already in mind. Of course, you can opt for a scarf landorus with HP Ice if set up with a landorus isn't your cup of tea.
 
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ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
The only issue with running a stealth rocks counter is that you'd also want a spin blocker. A Landorus could help in place of Scrafty. With a Hammer arm it can still smack down on Snorlax and Tyranitar. Earthquake and Stone Edge will hammer away Volt Turn abusers and Swords Dance or Rock Polish respectively for whichever stat you want to boost. Add Sand Force into the equation and you have a pretty solid sand team check too. Because of Landorus' typing, it's immune to volt switch and resistant to u-turn. It does have the misfoturne of adding an ice weakness to your team. However, considering most Ice attacks are coming from water types or Mamoswine.... I think you have your counters already in mind. Of course, you can opt for a scarf landorus with HP Ice if set up with a landorus isn't your cup of tea.

Hmm probably Rock Polish, I don't seem to have trouble muscling through stuff, but do have trouble getting revenged by Scarf users (except Lilligant). Landorus over Scrafty adds... 3 Ice weaknesses (Landorus, Latios, Lilligant) but is balanced by 3 resists (Ninetales, Volcarona, Starmie).
Setting up with Landorus is fine, in all honestly I'd rather avoid Choice items. Never been comfortable with them. I was thinking of abusing U-Turn myself, maybe EQ/Pock Polish/Stone Edge/U-Turn with max Atk/Speed. Just to really stick it to VoltTurn and maybe get Starmie and such in a little easier. Starmie, Latios, and Lilligant can all easily OHKO Gliscor, while Ninetales and Volcarona have no trouble at all against Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Skarmory, so if they do try to stop a Rock Polish sweep I can U-Turn out and cause a little pain.
I also think EQ *should* keep the obese teddy bear at bay, so I may not need Hammer Arm.

Although, I do believe its about time I revamp the OP, as Lilligant has been reEV'd and such. Then, moar PO.

EDIT: Original post updated, including Landorus and Lilligant's tweaked EV spread, and Latios traded HP Ground for Fire to hammer certain Steels.
 
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SilentOmen

Shadow of Prophecy
I'm feeling sad. I'm doing the biggest thing I dislike doing. I'm sucking the originality out of your team with "generic OU threats" :(

Still, your team is really shaping up nicely. I hope Landorus proves more effective than Scrafty did.
 

ProjectTitan313

Fire breathing moth
I'm feeling sad. I'm doing the biggest thing I dislike doing. I'm sucking the originality out of your team with "generic OU threats" :(

Still, your team is really shaping up nicely. I hope Landorus proves more effective than Scrafty did.

Oh, don't worry about it. May not have that ugly deer... thing anymore, but I've got to try out a few pokes I've haven't used much before (Starmie, Scrafty, and Landorus) so it feels new to me xD

And yes, I love the Landorus. The shiny sprite goes with Fire nicely, and U-Turn is so much nicer when I'm not being trolled to death by it, plus I don't have to worry about Magnezone trapping Cobalion anymore. Decided to throw a Yache Berry on it just to heartlessly murder Mixed TTar and enjoy the Sand Force boost, he also recently came in very useful against a Sand team running Magnezone+Landorus for VoltTurn, which was utter chaos before. Sitting at 1066 points atm, up from 600ish from the original team. Haven't lost much, so just I'm gonna keep the train rolling.
The Yache Berry also seems to lead people into thinking I'm Choiced until I fire off Rock Polish, which has been a useful mindf*ck. And I can't wait to crush a Ice Shard Mamoswine.

Oddly enough I haven't ran into another Snorlax yet. Guess I'll have to run some calcs for Earthquake, just to be safe. Or maybe 3 trainers straight running Snorlax was dumb luck, its currently UU I believe.
 
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