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Lucario & Greninja! The Aura of Fate!! (1197)

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
Anymore than Ash apparently had the entire Froakie line all at once? Or Ash and Greninja breaking up at a shallow pool that never happened in the actual episodes but did during the XYZ opening?
That’s my point. They could’ve just done completely original scenes, like the froakie line evolution, that represents what’s being told instead of presenting a changed existing scene and avoided all the trouble. Have you not been reading what i’m writing?
The thing about memory flashbacks is that it's not exactly how people remember it. There's always a deviation to it. And maybe, instead of complaining about the trees of continuity, look at the forest to see what the absence really signifies.
Give me one example of a flashback that’s incorrect and changed that’s apparently just not the writers making a mistake, when something wrong with the memory isn’t the whole plot of what’s going on.

Look i get that they might be ‘hiding’ it and that the form probably still exist, i didn’t say otherwise, but it doesn’t change the fact that they’ve done it in the most idiotic way possible. Like i don’t even get why anyone would even try to defend such a dumb decision when they could’ve easily done it in a way that doesn’t cause this problem while still achieving the same result.
No seriously, this is exactly the same argument that anti-Serena Twitter user used to push their theory that the Anime team erased and retconned Serena out of existence.
It’s absolutely not. The bonnie and clemont ‘flashback’, that was actually the narrator describing them, was a non specific scene. People who called it a retcon were dumb because it didn’t change any existing scene. At most it was an omission, much like how they didn’t show serena’s ribbon, but never have it gone in a scene where it should’ve existed. Again, something the greninja scene is clearly not because it was an existing scene that was outright changed.
 
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Ragnarok4

Orbtus Champion
I think the reaction to the evolution of Froakie is extremely exaggerated, Froakie was never meant to be one of the main starters like Sobble or Scorbunny, it's just one more pokemon of the bunch that doesn't matter much at the end of the day. In addition, we have already seen many cases of Pokemon that evolve out of nowhere, perhaps because of their experience before being captured. In this anime the battles are important but it has been shown on many occasions that a Pokemon can evolve for any reason or sometimes there is simply no apparent reason.

Also, ''he doesn't deserve Frogadier'' lmao who is Frogadier? It's just any pokemon, I bet even Goh's caterpie would beat it.
 

Kazuniya

アイリス
The more I think about it, the more I can't wrap my head around the Ash-Greninja form just being gone.

There is actually no reason to remove it, and yet they went out of their way now to show it.

This could mean one of these things:

a) they're planning to keep it a surprise for the future, OR
b) someone on the team must hate Ash-Greninja and just wanted that form gone for w/e reason, OR
c) the writing stuff actually forgot about Ash-Greninja's existence
 

AuraChannelerChris

"The fish..."
All things considered, Ash-Greninja is locked away forever in Gen VII, so showing a form that can't be used in the main games anymore is understandable. At least Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves are fair game in the anime because it'd be rather hard to pretend those don't exist in a worldwide(?) tournament.

(What's not understandable is the fact that they had to re-do that specific flashback shot of a bunch of other ones.)
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
Give me one example of a flashback that’s incorrect and changed that’s apparently just not the writers making a mistake, when something wrong with the memory isn’t the whole plot of what’s going on.

Look i get that they might be ‘hiding’ it and that the form probably still exist, i didn’t say otherwise, but it doesn’t change the fact that they’ve done it in the most idiotic way possible. Like i don’t even get why anyone would even try to defend such a dumb decision when they could’ve easily done it in a way that doesn’t cause this problem while still achieving the same result.
Serena had two flashback of Ash saying "Don't give till the end" but the way Ash shows his hand is different.

This is XY006:
fujfuyk2.png


This is XY007:

DP70.jpg


Both are meant to be the exact same moment, but drawn in different ways rather than being reused animation. And back to back no less. This tells us that flashbacks are alterable and may not tell the full story. What we do know that is Journeys doesn't make continuity errors without reason. Given the extreme lengths they went to hide Serena (seriously, they only showed Lisia and Wallace in the opening despite the fact they are not as prominent in the actual episode, didn't show who actually owns Sylveon, and went out of their way to ensure that Serena is not mentioned in Ash's reunion with the Lemon Siblings even though the next episode Wallace mentioning May), it stands to reason that Greninja will be coming back.

All things considered, Ash-Greninja is locked away forever in Gen VII, so showing a form that can't be used in the main games anymore is understandable. At least Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves are fair game in the anime because it'd be rather hard to pretend those don't exist in a worldwide(?) tournament.

(What's not understandable is the fact that they had to re-do that specific flashback shot of a bunch of other ones.)

Hard to pretend? You can't use Mega Evolution at all in Generation VIII. Not even for DP remakes and Legends Arceus. And you can't use Z-Moves either. What Ash is doing right now is fundamentally impossible for a newcomer to do unless they got an old copy of XY or Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. Not to mention that Lisia showed up to promote contests despite the fact Lisia doesn't appear beyond Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire years ago.

But that would be even more bad writing on their part. Greninjas stuck in Kalos for a reason, and the vines were brought back for a reason.

If they could just erase them with a thought when writing it, then it would call into question even more on why Greninja had to stay.

That's not a fact. That's an opinion. The vines only exist to keep Greninja off of Ash's team, and it's always implied to be a temporary problem as a result of Team Flare's actions.

It's no different from Bulbasaur suddenly being Oaked because apparently Bulbasaur is the only Pokémon able to keep the peace amongst the Pokémon there. Or Charizard being left to Charrific Valley to become stronger. Or Goodra left at the Marshlands to protect it. It doesn't matter in the long run because when Ash decides he wants his Pokémon back, they will come back to his team.

And to paraphrase Stan Lee, everything is at the whim of the writer's wishes. Want Greninja back? Get rid of the vines. Worry that Greninja becomes part of the team? Put him in Oak's Lab.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"The fish..."
Hard to pretend? You can't use Mega Evolution at all in Generation VIII. Not even for DP remakes and Legends Arceus. And you can't use Z-Moves either. What Ash is doing right now is fundamentally impossible for a newcomer to do unless they got an old copy of XY or Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. Not to mention that Lisia showed up to promote contests despite the fact Lisia doesn't appear beyond Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire years ago.
Technically speaking, those two mechanics can still be used in Generation VIII all because they are still very much relevant in Pokemon Masters EX.

Hell, it goes forwards and backwards too. Elesa can use Dynamax for one of her two Emolga, and Marnie can use Mega Mawile.
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
Serena had two flashback of Ash saying "Don't give till the end" but the way Ash shows his hand is different.

This is XY006:
fujfuyk2.png


This is XY007:

DP70.jpg


Both are meant to be the exact same moment, but drawn in different ways rather than being reused animation. And back to back no less. This tells us that flashbacks are alterable and may not tell the full story. What we do know that is Journeys doesn't make continuity errors without reason. Given the extreme lengths they went to hide Serena (seriously, they only showed Lisia and Wallace in the opening despite the fact they are not as prominent in the actual episode, didn't show who actually owns Sylveon, and went out of their way to ensure that Serena is not mentioned in Ash's reunion with the Lemon Siblings even though the next episode Wallace mentioning May), it stands to reason that Greninja will be coming back.

I’m sorry, but trying to paint those two scenes as ‘different’ might just be the biggest reach i’ve ever seen. Like i don’t think i can ever take you seriously anymore after that. Even ignoring that one seems like a first person POV memory and the other is a general third person ‘narrative flashback’, there’s nothing different between those two scene at all. The ‘camera’ is a few degrees off, so different, much wow. Hell, i would’ve even given some acknowledgment if ash had used different hands or different shirts.

And i also don’t understand why you keep bringing up the false equivalence of not showing everything to keep things hidden and blatantly changing things. There wouldn’t even be a conversation if they had actually continued doing the same thing. But never mind, i’m just not going to even bother anymore if this is the logic we’re going with.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
Technically speaking, those two mechanics can still be used in Generation VIII all because they are still very much relevant in Pokemon Masters EX.

Hell, it goes forwards and backwards too. Elesa can use Dynamax for one of her two Emolga, and Marnie can use Mega Mawile.
You mean in games where you can't actually transfer Pokémon to Pokémon Home? Gimme a break.

I’m sorry, but trying to paint those two scenes as ‘different’ might just be the biggest reach i’ve ever seen. Like i don’t think i can ever take you seriously anymore after that. Even ignoring that one seems like a first person POV memory and the other is a general third person ‘narrative flashback’, there’s nothing different between those two scene at all. Hell, i would’ve even given some acknowledgment if ash had used different hands.

And i also don’t understand why you keep bringing up the false equivalence of not showing everything to keep things hidden and blatantly changing things. There wouldn’t even be a conversation if they had actually continued doing the same thing.

Because I've seen a lot of fans melt down when Serena didn't appear with Clemont and Bonnie. Like major meltdown. Then complain about this in Journeys and that in Journeys, nitpicking to the point of ignoring everything else that Journeys has done. Like, Serena appearing as a surprise immediately after the double Kalos episode was the final straw for me on fan hysteria. And this wasn't the first incident with Kalos either. When it was just Korrina, I've heard fans claim that Journeys erased the Kalos Gang and therefore proof they're unpopular. When the Lemon Siblings return, it was Serena being erased. Serena's blue ribbon missing, Amourshipping being erased etc.

What Journeys has shown is that it knows continuity and is very consistent on how it uses continuity even on things fans don't really think much of. When people rant about Ash-Greninja erasure because of flashbacks, they ignore everything else portraying a different picture, instead just solely focusing on those flashbacks. Missing the forest for the trees.

And I'm sorry, but this has to stop.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"The fish..."
You mean in games where you can't actually transfer Pokémon to Pokémon Home? Gimme a break.
Regardless if Masters EX has transfer or not, it's very much part of the mainline games as a spin-off (unlike the Rangers or MD games, which don't get references in the mainline games).

(I mean, it's the only place that continues Giovanni's Rainbow Rocket story line.)
 

satopi

Go’s Scizor needs to Hassam better episodes:/
The more I think about it, the more I can't wrap my head around the Ash-Greninja form just being gone.

There is actually no reason to remove it, and yet they went out of their way now to show it.

This could mean one of these things:

a) they're planning to keep it a surprise for the future, OR
b) someone on the team must hate Ash-Greninja and just wanted that form gone for w/e reason, OR
c) the writing stuff actually forgot about Ash-Greninja's existence
I always believed the flashbacks are Ash’s memories so Ash must’ve forgot he was fighting Mega Charizard X with Ash-Greninja.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

Ash's Lucario is his greatest Pokémon!
This episode was a complete waste if Greninja doesn’t return. Then again I won’t ***** until its set in stone that it won’t.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

Ash's Lucario is his greatest Pokémon!

RLC

Well-Known Member
For real though, this episode aged like milk for me. Like, why not show the AG form sigghhhhhh. At the very least, my boi sceptile was never snapped out of existence, which helps to alleviate the pain.
 
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