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May 3rd: SM73 - The Rocket Gang's Island Pilgrimage! Get a Z-Ring!!

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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Even though that Team Rocket might get the Z ring they are still going to fail at their job of stealing things

Villains fail, it's a common outcome, it's just the adversity they offer the heroes and HOW they fail. The dynamic, the threat level, the tactics either throw at each other. We don't get a whole lot of ANY OF THAT in many recent TR face-offs so it would be nice to see something alter.

The writer's previous episodes leave me unsure though. They're not bad episodes, but they're an odd selection, only two even feature TR.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Villains fail, it's a common outcome, it's just the adversity they offer the heroes and HOW they fail. The dynamic, the threat level, the tactics either throw at each other. We don't get a whole lot of ANY OF THAT in many recent TR face-offs so it would be nice to see something alter.

The writer's previous episodes leave me unsure though. They're not bad episodes, but they're an odd selection, only two even feature TR.
tbh, at least the celesteela ep had the face-off have some real urgency
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
tbh, at least the celesteela ep had the face-off have some real urgency

Even if that was more connected to them worsening the stakes already at hand (though I'll credit Meowth for holding control of the mech for so long).

Besides cases they were winning until Bewear came along (eg. Mareanie's debut) the Alolan Meowth episode is probably their best SM effort so far, they at least had an elaborate plan that forced the twerps to use a good helping of their Pokemon in a clever way.
 

p96822

Evolve me please
Even if that was more connected to them worsening the stakes already at hand (though I'll credit Meowth for holding control of the mech for so long).

Besides cases they were winning until Bewear came along (eg. Mareanie's debut) the Alolan Meowth episode is probably their best SM effort so far, they at least had an elaborate plan that forced the twerps to use a good helping of their Pokemon in a clever way.

Of the Mareanie episode, Ash didn't considered of using his Z move against Team Rocket. Ash had an ace in the hole and never used it so make that so call win less impactful. While the Alolan Meowth episode since they had Pikachu they could have made to their base and the hero won't know where to look for Pikachu. So Team Rocket success are more base on dumb luck or them not high tailing to their base.

Also compare the episode where Team Rocket Successfully catches Pikachu and Goomy compare to when they caught Pikachu in the Alolan Meowth episode. In the Goomy episode they have no place to take Pikachu to be taken to the boss while in Alolan Meowth they have a base so they could have just made to the base and the main character wouldn't know where Team Rocket where.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
That is the general plothole in all TR face-offs, rather than making a high tail for HQ or some other communication for Giovanni, they stop in some random bit of forest to gloat, some area perfect as a ground for the twerps to find and kick their asses. The one case they avoided this of course was the case they caught Yanma.

The Z Moves I tend to excuse because they usually need to happen when the character has an opening, and Ash's lot were getting bombarded at that point with him having to focus on two of his Pokemon at once at that. I can kinda excuse this as the reason Ash doesn't just bring out all his Pokemon at once against TR every time because focusing on all them would be convoluted and easy to exploit.

The Alolan Meowth episode I put on higher ground because, while some of the standard plot armour cliches and 'enforced stupidity moments' had to occur (similarly Ash and ONLY Ash fought them, when they had TR outnumbered six to two, again happens every series), they were at least downplayed to the point the twerps had to exert some actual effort and wit into stopping them, not winning the same two boring ways of automated curb stomp or dumb luck. It's still kinda barebones compared to some face-offs in previous series though (even their villain decay era days had the odd REALLY good face off like Do I Hear A Ralts and The Stolen Stones where the twerps had to throw nearly everything at them).
 
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p96822

Evolve me please
It not a plothole because they have a base now and plus no one know where it is and they can have their win condition. Plus I think the XY version are better because they don't rely on dumb luck then their inventions in XY.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It not a plothole because they have a base now and plus no one know where it is and they can have their win condition. Plus I think the XY version are better because they don't rely on dumb luck then their inventions in XY.

The problem was in XY after a while their plans and inventions were tight enough that the TWERPS started to rely on dumb luck all the time. Almost any time TR put up a good fight, rather than have the twerps stop them but put up more of a struggle about it, something would interrupt or one of their Pokemon would super boost DEM style. It was even more obvious because, like in SM, half the twerps weren't even battlers but still ALWAYS won easily, just not always just through overpowering them. After a while I think they just dumbed TR down completely because they didn't want the twerps to look incompetent because of this (Ash was supposed to be on the top of his game that series, they couldn't have him continuously having to luck out to the likes of TR).

It's not just a case of making TR challenging, but making them so they force an impressive counter method from the twerps to stop them, which is negated if they just win by plot armour or interruptions instead of proving they can handle a real challenge. I think that is often the road block for the writers. The twerps too often need dumbed down challenges.
 
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AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I see those XY vs SM arguments ocassionally tbh.

I would like to see TR doing those Z-moves poses, regardless how useful them having a Z-ring can be. These would make my day. :D
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I see those XY vs SM arguments ocassionally tbh.

I would like to see TR doing those Z-moves poses, regardless how useful them having a Z-ring can be. These would made my day. :D

As someone who regularly starts them, I'll admit XY still had a better number of good TR face-offs, just SM doesn't spam as many lame ones as any series before.

It's just a regular occurrence with the anime. I think it's also the reason TR interrupt so many plots throughout it as well. They're pretty much an excuse for the twerps to achieve things with no real effort or skill (Ash ends the plot by commanding 'Dodge!' and then "Thunderbolt!', what an easy as hell way to write an episode climax, why WOULDN'T they?). SM at least tries to have more times the twerps do something clever to drive the plot forward, but actual villain face offs are still lacklustre than ever.
 
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p96822

Evolve me please
The thing I miss about team rocket is more of technology to help them make them stealing thing much less of a hassall like those box smoke bombs or those restane to keep them from moving. I even miss the Pokemon being more invove with their stealing Pokemon like Weezing/Seviper/Frillish to blind their opponent to make a get away
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The problem is that TR's schemes have become more generic, even in their more competent moments in later series, they often still felt very by-the-numbers besides the odd exception. The early OS was good with TR face-offs because there was more character and randomness to them, even the times they failed miserably, it was at least in a way that was amusing.

Their best moments in BW were still never as varied as say The Stolen Stones for example, where they used all sorts of hilarious trickery and genre savvy backup plans to keep ground with the twerps. They still had the usual shock-proof trap and one minute battle, but it wasn't the whole bulk of it.
 
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p96822

Evolve me please
As I said before Team Rocket getting a Z ring isn’t a big deal they will still fail at their missions.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
As I said before Team Rocket getting a Z ring isn’t a big deal they will still fail at their missions.

Oh well, at least giving them other quests like trying to use the Z Moves gives them something to do besides bug the twerps.
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Well it is good if at least Team Rocket gets a quest besides trying to catch Pikachu so that Team Rocket gets to do something that isn't as repetitive and this episode could be another step on their quest, to get the Z-Ring.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Still no sign if it's z-ring plural?
I really hope both Jessie and James can get one, James barely gets to battle as it is!
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Still no sign if it's z-ring plural?
I really hope both Jessie and James can get one, James barely gets to battle as it is!

No even better, give them both a Z Crystal but only one Z Ring, so they can constantly banter over who gets to use it, or have to convolutedly switch it mid-battle (imagines Jessie nearly ripping James' hand off when it's her turn to use the Z-Ring).
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
No even better, give them both a Z Crystal but only one Z Ring, so they can constantly banter over who gets to use it, or have to convolutedly switch it mid-battle (imagines Jessie nearly ripping James' hand off when it's her turn to use the Z-Ring).
How about only James gets the Z-Ring, and Jessie doesn't get one at all? Usually, Jessie gets the more important role (e.g., as a rival to the Pokégirl) while James is shoved into the supporting role, so it would be a nice change if, for once, James is the one who gets the more important role, this time as the bearer of the Z-Ring, while Jessie is shoved into the supporting role.

However, it's more likely that Team Rocket only gets one Z-Ring to share between them.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
How about only James gets the Z-Ring, and Jessie doesn't get one at all? Usually, Jessie gets the more important role (e.g., as a rival to the Pokégirl) while James is shoved into the supporting role, so it would be a nice change if, for once, James is the one who gets the more important role, this time as the bearer of the Z-Ring, while Jessie is shoved into the supporting role.

However, it's more likely that Team Rocket only gets one Z-Ring to share between them.

James getting the Z Ring would be fair, though it would likely be more rounded to give the gimmick to both characters (I don't see them getting a whole lot of Z crystals anyway), and find other ways to even out their roles (I'm still hoping James will get a secondary 'mascot' Pokemon this series since they brought back the glomping gag).

I was always under the assumption that if either of the TRio caught Bewear it will likely be Jessie.
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Still no sign if it's z-ring plural?
I really hope both Jessie and James can get one, James barely gets to battle as it is!
Plurals in Japanese are consistently the same as non-plurals in Japanese so it could mean either. But I believe it will be a single Z-Ring because Team Rocket share only one Darkinium-Z and it will be excessive if Jessie and James both get Z-Rings.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I don't see them getting a Z Ring each unless the writers are genuinely set on making them a threat. Even if they do get Z Crystals for both their teams, one Z Ring having to be shared between the two of them (+ one of them being Jessie) offers way too much humour potential.

Of course we don't know they'll even get one just yet.
 
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