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May 7th: PM2019 065 - Dragon Battle! Satoshi VS Iris!!

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Ragnarok4

カイリュー Kairyuu Master
Yes, because winning a big tournament is what makes a character good.

*looks at PM Ash*

Yeah, he still kinda fucking sucks? :confused:
Don't try to defend BW Ash
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I had no issues with Ash during.

Only time I really had some sort of an issue with the portrayal was the 5x5 against Trip but since they addressed and improved on it in later episodes, I don't mind anymore.

Hot take, but I like Ash in BW more than I did in SM. Not not say, SM was bad - it was decent and better than I originally think it'd be - but I still like BW more.
 

Ragnarok4

カイリュー Kairyuu Master
Hot take, but I like Ash in BW more than I did in SM. Not not say, SM was bad - it was decent and better than I originally think it'd be - but I still like BW more.
Me too

I'm really critical of Ash's battle skills up to the middle of BW, but as a character I liked him more than SM, JN and AG Ash
 

AuraChannelerChris

Shooting bugs dead and pretending to be helpless.
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Dragalge

Custom title: If specified, this will replace the
Is it because BW Ash traveled but SM did not.
Yeah for like only a bit over half of Unova. Once Ash beat Trip, the rest of his travels became completely pointless.
 

Ragnarok4

カイリュー Kairyuu Master
I dislike BW and SM Ash the same. He died once DP ended and the Ash from BW onwards is a different Ash imo.
My emotions say not to pay attention to you because XY is in my heart but reason tells me that you are right
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
I dislike BW and SM Ash the same. He died once DP ended and the Ash from BW onwards is a different Ash imo.
Bw satoshi is him take break from the sinnoh journey to me sm and nj Satoshi feel different character due to the look too cartoonish
 

LucasMV

Well-Known Member
I dislike BW and SM Ash the same. He died once DP ended and the Ash from BW onwards is a different Ash imo.
To be honest, the more natural progression would've been from DP Ash, to XY Ash (but winning the League instead) and then to JN Ash.

We can all agree BW Ash was an out of place regression and the SM series felt like a spin off. And I'm saying this as someone who actually really liked SM.
 

Ragnarok4

カイリュー Kairyuu Master
To be honest, the more natural progression would've been from DP Ash, to XY Ash (but winning the League instead) and then to JN Ash.

We can all agree BW Ash was an out of place regression and the SM series felt like a spin off. And I'm saying this as someone who actually really liked SM.
Tbh I only agree 50%. When people say that Ash in XYZ was a vegetable, seems they never watch AG or the last 60 episodes of DP where any tree was more entertaining than Ash, only Paul made see Ash very interesting for the mere rivalry, but already from AG the formula began to be exasperating and Ash boring, That's why May sometimes seemed like the real protagonist

But I don't agree that DP -> XY is a natural progression, as there were some notable differences in Ash's personality.
 

Remix2

Well-Known Member
Well, it wasn't just the fact he was an overall loser. We all saw how dumber (that someone thrice the dumbness took him down without a full team even) and cockier he got (which directly caused Iris to criticize him more) when mistakes like those would've been impossible to make when he was in DP.
That what happens when the writers try to reboot the series and making it kanto lite( and failing miserably at it).
 

Kcanimegod12345

New Member
Tbh I only agree 50%. When people say that Ash in XYZ was a vegetable, seems they never watch AG or the last 60 episodes of DP where any tree was more entertaining than Ash, only Paul made see Ash very interesting for the mere rivalry, but already from AG the formula began to be exasperating and Ash boring, That's why May sometimes seemed like the real protagonist

But I don't agree that DP -> XY is a natural progression, as there were some notable differences in Ash's personality.
I'm sorry but may was just boring.
 

Master Pikachu 11

Well-Known Member
Not gonna get into the debate about whether Iris can beat Ash or not, but the battle you chose is a bad example. Pikachu was in a terribly massive type disadvantage against Excadrill. 2 of his attacks did nothing, and the other 2 were not very effective. While Excadrill had super effective moves against Pikachu. If anything, Iris NOT winning that battle would've been weird.


It'll probably be similar to the Korrina episode. So not that bad, but not ideal either.
I am not expecting Goh to catch as many as he did in that episode, I think that he will at least get one capture but no more then two, so I say 3-4 minutes top
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
That doesn't make any sense at all. I don't see how his dragons associate with Gary for one thing, if anyone should face gary it should be Pikachu since you know it's never gotten a win against him despite being Ash's starter.

Besides know how Ash is when it comes to losses, very rarely does he not use the same pokemon against someone who beat him previously when going at them again for a rematch, so if he loses here, you can expect him to go after Iris with at least Dragonite again later on.

His dragons don't associate with Gary all that much. It's just losing to Iris that should be the catalyst to provide Dragonite and Dracovish with some development (like how Bea and Rinto were for Lucario and Sirfetch'd).

If there were to be a rematch, yeah, I'd expect Ash to use the same team.

To be honest Iris' Dragonite was already a powerhouse when she caught him. But then he got recked by both Ash's Charizard and Claire's Druddigon. That's why I said that Haxorus being the one to fight Ash's Dragonite would make a bit more sense, since it's her first partner at his full potential. While Iris' Dragonite has already kinda lost it's OP aura after those two battles I mentioned.

But yeah, in a perfect world, I agree with those match ups you said. Except that I'd prefer Ash to win, unless there's a second battle later on between them.

You're also forgetting Ash's Krookodile.

At this point, it isn't about 'sense' anymore, since Dragonite v. Dragonite is already confirmed.

Bring Naganadel back and destroy all the Iris team with just it

What can Naganadel do to Excadrill that Pikachu can't?

I'm calling Ash's Dragonite a girl cause that's what I want it to be. At the same time I am acknowledging it's not confirmed yet. So I don't see what's the big deal.

Dragonite beat both Mienshao and Mega-Lucario. Why can't the Abomination(TM) do some serious damage to Haxorus but still lose to it. Dragonite can OHKO and not take damage when it goes up and then the Dragonite brawl can happen. Isn't Haxorus still getting a "good win" in this scenario?

That doesn't make much sense. If the jump to Ultra Class depends on this match, it will likely be where Ash wins. We don't even know if Gary is even a part of the WCS. If he is, he'd be a great first opponent. I don't want him to be as he would be a great catalyst for development regarding Ash and Goh's Abominations and Goh's Aerodactyl as he is a Fossil Researcher for the most part.

It's like this hypothetical. I don't know if you are a boy or a girl. I'm acknowledging that your gender is unconfirmed (to me), but I'm going to address you as a girl anyway as that's what I think you are (or 'want you to be', which is even weirder, but I digress).

I kinda think it's better if Ash loses. The scenario you propose would be:
- Dracovish vs. Haxorus: Haxorus
- Happynite vs. Haxorus: Happynite
- Happynite vs. Angrynite: ?

I honestly don't see Haxorus beating Dracovish as a 'good' win. Dracovish as far as we know has none to little battle experience at most. I assume it has some strength, but it's basically the same as Charmeleon vs. Paras in my eyes where the outcome was obvious from the start.

If Ash loses here, the jump to Ultra Class can literally be done when (and if) Ash fights Gary (since he's showing up soon). It doesn't depend on this match at all, but it is a possibility if Ash wins. It's like in tennis where you have a matchpoint. If you lose that matchpoint, you don't necessarily lose the match, but you'll need to get in that same position again.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

People who take Pokemon too seriously frighten me
so people don't count his win over her in the final mini tournament as a win?
I don't consider it a proper win coz it felt cheap in the sense dragonite disobeying, so it wasn't really a proper iris Vs ash battle for me. It was more ash Vs a disobedient dragonite.
Yeah but Iris could believably take down Ash with Excadrill or Dragonite. I don’t think it’s fair to say Iris got an “off screen” level up when we don’t even know if Axew evolved for sure and we definitely don’t know if he’s battling. I’m not sure how that’s any more favoritism than May coming back with a Venasuar, Glaceon and Warturtle. Was it favoritism when Dawn’s Piplup used Ice Beam and Drill peck? Along with Mamowsine using Ice Fang? Dragonite was already obeying her but slightly stopped in the special episode, Gible goes back to my point about May and we don’t know if she’ll get a sixth member. Most of the post is just assumptions.
I mean, she did get an off screen level. I admit these are assumptions but they have logical basis with the recent summaries and all
Dawn just learned new moves. As for may yea her mons evolved (I do think it was kinda overkill for her part too btw) but AG had a consistent may storyline with her improving so it feels warranted. BW didn't handle iris's character well at all, her storyline was all over the place and proper care and focus wasn't given to her character at all. Assuming she does get a Haxorus and is the Opelucid gym leader, I say that's more of a level up then may and dawn considering her status and arc handling in BW Vs now. And also, again I agree that iris can beat ash or it can be vice versa, I just don't see how ash doesn't "deserve" a win over Iris same way I don't see how she doesn't "deserve" a win over Ash. The extremities of both side is what I kinda find troubling.
 

Sham

Brilliant Dawn
I don't consider it a proper win coz it felt cheap in the sense dragonite disobeying, so it wasn't really a proper iris Vs ash battle for me. It was more ash Vs a disobedient dragonite.

I mean, she did get an off screen level. I admit these are assumptions but they have logical basis with the recent summaries and all
Dawn just learned new moves. As for may yea her mons evolved (I do think it was kinda overkill for her part too btw) but AG had a consistent may storyline with her improving so it feels warranted. BW didn't handle iris's character well at all, her storyline was all over the place and proper care and focus wasn't given to her character at all. Assuming she does get a Haxorus and is the Opelucid gym leader, I say that's more of a level up then may and dawn considering her status and arc handling in BW Vs now. And also, again I agree that iris can beat ash or it can be vice versa, I just don't see how ash doesn't "deserve" a win over Iris same way I don't see how she doesn't "deserve" a win over Ash. The extremities of both side is what I kinda find troubling.
So basically you admit that May received the same thing you’re accusing Iris of but giving her a pass because you preferred May’s storyline. Also contrary to popular belief May was never “steadily” improving. Majority of her Contest she entered she actually won. She wasn’t constantly losing like Dawn was. Not to mention you disliking Iris’ development in BW is subjective. She did receive focus and actually has the same exact focus episodes as Serena. Her becoming Gym leader isn’t a “power up” either considering she could of became one in BW but declined Drayden’s offer almost immediately.
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
His dragons don't associate with Gary all that much. It's just losing to Iris that should be the catalyst to provide Dragonite and Dracovish with some development (like how Bea and Rinto were for Lucario and Sirfetch'd).

If there were to be a rematch, yeah, I'd expect Ash to use the same team.



You're also forgetting Ash's Krookodile.

At this point, it isn't about 'sense' anymore, since Dragonite v. Dragonite is already confirmed.



What can Naganadel do to Excadrill that Pikachu can't?



It's like this hypothetical. I don't know if you are a boy or a girl. I'm acknowledging that your gender is unconfirmed (to me), but I'm going to address you as a girl anyway as that's what I think you are (or 'want you to be', which is even weirder, but I digress).

I kinda think it's better if Ash loses. The scenario you propose would be:
- Dracovish vs. Haxorus: Haxorus
- Happynite vs. Haxorus: Happynite
- Happynite vs. Angrynite: ?

I honestly don't see Haxorus beating Dracovish as a 'good' win. Dracovish as far as we know has none to little battle experience at most. I assume it has some strength, but it's basically the same as Charmeleon vs. Paras in my eyes where the outcome was obvious from the start.

If Ash loses here, the jump to Ultra Class can literally be done when (and if) Ash fights Gary (since he's showing up soon). It doesn't depend on this match at all, but it is a possibility if Ash wins. It's like in tennis where you have a matchpoint. If you lose that matchpoint, you don't necessarily lose the match, but you'll need to get in that same position again.

Well Dragonite is not an actual person and doesn't have the ability to care what pronoun I use for it. If we're talking about an irl person, then you're right, it's best to use they to be safe.

I do see Haxorus beating Dracovish as a good win. Considering how useless Axew was in BW and how easy evolutions seem to happen in JN, with Drizzile as a recent example, Haxorus may not be as strong as one might hope. For a Pokémon that was solely kept cute and useless for marketing purposes, beating Dracovish now that it was finally allowed to evolve is more than what it deserves tbh.

Ash's Dragonite can OHKO it and then have a full HP battle against Iris' Dragonite and win. (Or even tie if they want Gary to be the Ultra Class jump).

Well the summary we got said that Ash's entry in the Ultra Class depends on this match so if he wins, he's definitely getting in. He can tie with Iris and no ranking change happens. That would delay it enough for Gary to matter if he's in this thing in the first place.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
I don't consider it a proper win coz it felt cheap in the sense dragonite disobeying, so it wasn't really a proper iris Vs ash battle for me. It was more ash Vs a disobedient dragonite.

It's not the disobedience its the outrage and the intentional missing of attacks, am I supposed to believe Ash "won" against a Pokemon that lost its mind?

At least if it was like Georgia/Dawn it would've been better than Dragonite firing a flamethrower in the crowd. How about you aim it at the Krookodile over there?
 

LucasMV

Well-Known Member
If this is anything like Korrina, and Lt. Surge's surrogate Gym Leader, then they're probably bringing important battle-oriented characters back only once to act as milestones for Ash to defeat on his way to the top.

Only totally new characters like Bea or Rinto seem to be getting more than one appearence.

If that was the case, I'd totally expect Ash to defeat Iris, and for Gary to be his first opponent in the Ultra Class.

But, like some of you, I would also prefer it if this was not the only time Iris showed up. And in that case, Ash could lose here and defeat her later. We do have Korrina in the OP again, which could mean she might return once more. So maybe past characters aren't limited to only one appearence. But so far, the first option seems more likely.

You're also forgetting Ash's Krookodile.

At this point, it isn't about 'sense' anymore, since Dragonite v. Dragonite is already confirmed.
Yeah, I deliberately left it out because I feel that battle was unconventional. Dragonite wasn't listening to Iris at all. It's like when Ash's Charizard lost to that Poliwrath on the Orange Islands cause it wasn't listening to Ash, but then defeated it when he was listening.
We don't know if Krookodile would've defeated Dragonite if he listened to Iris and battled properly. While Dragonite was doing that vs Charizard and Druddigon.

And I know the mirror match is confirmed, but I think having it be a 2 vs 2 isn't ruled out yet, right?
 
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