May 7th: PM2019 065 - Dragon Battle! Satoshi VS Iris!!

[Kawaii Emolga]

Today I dreamed that Íris's Dragonite lose to Ash's, but then Íris throw a pokeball and Haxorus came out! Sadly I woke up and couldn't see what happens next :/

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Tbh this seems a Korrina vs Satoshi. At least he has female rivals,kinda sad in 20+ years no real main female rivals

 

[AsH KetcHHup]

Tbh this seems a Korrina vs Satoshi. At least he has female rivals,kinda sad in 20+ years no real main female rivals

It doesn't even seem like he is getting a main rival this series which I'm honestly fine with. They'll just recycle old ones and the new rivals seem more like trainers that have pokemon that rival one of Ash's pokemon. I don't think the game rivals will appear as well.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Holy arceus, Iris has TOO MANY similarities with Korrina

>99 wins streak
>Both fought against Ash's Dragonite
>They represents (I'm assuming Ash wins) the final rival to ascend to a new class
>both were Ash companions
>Grandparents were gym leaders once, they fought against them and both have white hair

 

[ChampioN One]

Holy arceus, Iris has TOO MANY similarities with Korrina

>99 wins streak
>Both fought against Ash's Dragonite
>They represents (I'm assuming Ash wins) the final rival to ascend to a new class
>both were Ash companions
>gym leaders

Does that mean Korrina is going to be the Kalos champion in XY remakes?

 

[Almighty Zard]

I hope you don't refer to me and my conclusion on Sirfetch'd

referring more to the long posts made by those who clearly show signs of bias, not you dude.

Why is it so absurd Ash loses here? If he would use his reserves then I understandyour point. But he's using Pokemon we BARELY saw battling on screen. Ok, u can argue that they train off the screen. Ok. But that's all "maybe" . I believe in the sentence: "What u see is what you get".
Thats my opinion atleast.

in the defense of Dragonite we don't know how strong it was already when Ash caught it, but the fact that in it's first on screen battle it managed to solo Korrina by itself, where as you know Pikachu couldn't beat Mega Lucario on it's own(since Fletchlinder got a good hit in with Flame Charge), showed me that not only is it pretty strong after all, but like other dragonites has a high level of endurance, so it can probably match Iris Dragonite in combat like it or not. it depends on who uses their moves better.

now despite me believing that this is going to be a one on one, if it is 2 v 2 and Dracovish gets used, the case has already been made that Iris might not know what Dracovish even is, since it was brought into the anime's existence in it's debut episode, and if so that could easily throw her off since how do you know how to fight something you've never seen or heard of before, and let me point out that it's happened to Ash quite a few times, heck he lost to Gary's Electivire because he didn't know what it could do.

the battle can go either way, it depends on the writers call.

I still think the safest bet would be a draw...but we know the writers don't like playing safe so the anime will likely get a winner, forums get a loser.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

my problem is that I don't know if Grapploct is her ace

Would be rather weird if it wasn't it after all this time. Ash's Lucario already has a vendetta against it. They can't change the octopus for Machamp out of the blue.

 

[Kazuniya]

You're such a kid for taking that bait

Since when do bad takes qualify as bait?

Like, if they did, than half the posts in this thread would be pure bait.

 

[Spyro39]

1. If you actually read my reply, I clearly state that Misty defeated Ash in a special tournament, i.e the Whirl Cup and Iris holds a similar role to Misty. While Misty and Iris are Competent Battlers, not once have they shown to be superior to Ash in terms of battling. If they were better battlers or just as good as Ash, then knowing Ash's character, he would've constantly wanted to battle them to be better than them but that wasn't the case.

The reason why Ash didn't constantly battle Misty, Iris, Kiawe, or any of his companions by his own choice is because not only are they his friends, but they don't share the same goal Ash had of winning a Pokemon League in their respective region. It's not in his character to be battling his own companions just to test their strength or his own and be better than them. Ash only fought them when it was required to, such as competing in the same tournament, or when his companions request a battle.

2. Growth doesn't mean scaling up to be a better trainer than Ash. For instance, we even see Mistry grow once she parted ways with Ash. She got over her fears and got herself a Gyarados. And in Alola, we find out that she even got a Mega Gyarados and put up a respectable fight against Ash. Nobody is saying Iris should get absolutely destroyed by Ash. The key point here is about Iris battling Ash which spoils the narrative.

3. Whether you like it or not, Ash is the main character and not Iris. The main Plot of the PWC is Ash's quest towards being the Pokemon World Champion. Everything we see is simply a stepping stone for Ash towards his final battle with Leon. It isn't Iris who is going to battle Leon but Ash. When Ash eventually reaches Leon and challenges him for battle, from a narrative standpoint, it should be convincing to viewers that Ash has finally reached a certain level of skill that actually makes him a competent enough opponent to fight Leon, or in fact, even someone like Lance in the Master Class.

"Ash should win because he's the main character and winning the PWC is his goal" is not a good excuse to invalidate Iris' accomplishments and call the narrative spoiled if he loses to her. Remember that he failed to accomplish his goal many times before by losing six leagues. Who's to say the writers might deny him this one as well.

Every trainer he battles is a stepping stone to towards his final battle with Leon, but it doesn't mean he should be winning battles left and right all the time. You are aware of how some people in fandom have criticized the series for Ash progressing so fast in the ranks in offscreen land?

I never said Iris was going to be the one to battle Leon. Iris could defeat Ash in this episode, and they can a rematch in the future where Ash defeats her, and goes on to challenge Leon. It's not going to impact his character's growth in a negative way.

Considering the fact that they decided to up Ash's rank at such a rapid rate, that gives a lot less time to sort of establish Ash's strength and make it convincing from a narrative standpoint that he belongs in the master class.
Even right now, other than Ash Greninja (Which Ash released), none of Ash's Pokemon have convincing feats that indicate they are elite four tier and even Ash has a trainer hasn't displayed this level of skill. I mean, Ash at the very least needs to reach this level if he wants to face Leon who is obviously much stronger.

The writers may have decided to progress Ash's rank at rapid rate, but they also decided to put Iris in the same class as him, which means to them, have also decided that she is on the same level as him (or least close to). With just a 1 year and half left in this series (or 2 years if this is a 4 year series), there's is a lot more time to establish Ash's strength and make it convincing from a narrative standpoint that he belongs in the Master Class. But given how fast the writers are progressing with this arc, I'm not holding my breath out for it.

If none of Ash's Pokemon are considered Elite 4 tier, maybe he should've used them and trained with them to get to that level instead of just leaving them at Oak's lab and starting over again with a brand new team. At least Iris didn't change her team and start over again.

Losing to Iris this late in the game, someone who is always inferior to him (While he was incompetent), invalidates all of Ash's achievements so far and ruins the narrative. The same guy who just lost to Iris is now going to get to Elite four tier and battle Leon and the Regional Champions?

And even if Iris has grown stronger, it is important to note that Ash has grown much stronger as well. Iris being stronger than Ash would be poor writing period.

The main problem here is that you keep assigning Iris a similar level of important to that of Ash. But the reality is, Iris is simply a side character who is part of Ash's story.

There's nothing wrong with Ash losing a battle, especially in the Super, Hyper, and Master class where trainers are supposed to be one of the world's best. Losing can be as much of a development for him as winning is, and it's not going to invalidate Ash's achievements so far or be considered bad writing just because the trainer he loses to is someone who used to travel with him.

Iris may not be the main character, but is she always supposed to be considered "inferior" to Ash just because she was a traveling companion and not a rival who opposed him in every way? I don't think so. Iris has defeated trainers whose name isn't Ash. Like I said earlier, Journeys has been known to break traditions; who's to say this one may be broken as well.

Bea was introduced like Paul, a strong trainer just as good if not better than Ash. Her being stronger than Ash doesn't demean or discredit Ash's progress so far.

Iris was someone who an Inferior version of Ash was much stronger than. And ever since Unova, Ash has exponentially made a lot of progress. Him losing to Iris simply discredits that. Personally, I'm not even that thrilled or convinced about Gary being stronger than Ash and being the one to beat him.

But out of Iris and Gary, the latter fits the narrative a lot better because he was always considered to be a superior trainer to Ash and even in their last match, dominated most of the battle until Ash used his out of the box thinking to win. He then defeats a much stronger version of Ash after retiring. Also, considering his newly acquired research experience, maybe he takes Ash by surprise by using high level strategies and very technical skills and a complete switch in battle style compared to his traditional style.

How is Bea like Paul and better than Ash? Because the episode she debuted in featured a battle where she defeated Ash? Because she was a "jerk" to him (delivering tough criticism is not exactly the same as to how Paul treated Ash)? Because Ash didn't defeat her in their rematch? You're determining her skill as a trainer based on the fact that Ash has yet to defeat her.

Gary is not really considered a superior trainer to Ash anymore if Ash already defeated him in the Johto League. Their rivalry had ended, and so was Gary's decision to pursue the same career as Ash. You really think that Gary took the time as a researcher developing battle strategies and tactics? Also, the only reason why Gary defeated Ash at the end of AG was to show him the Sinnoh region and set up the DP series. Their rematch was nowhere near as compelling or strategic than in the Johto League. How could a Pikachu who defeated a legendary Regice soon lose to an ordinary Electivire? So you say that Gary could come back potentially smarter and more strategic because of the research experience he gained in offscreen land to defeat Ash, but you disregard any potential growth and strength Iris could've gained after parting ways with Ash that might just give her the push to defeat him in a way that still makes sense for both the narrative and their character arcs?

So even if Iris has grown stronger after parting ways with Ash, being stronger than him and defeating him is considered bad writing because she was a traveling companion, but for Gary, it's not bad writing because he was a rival? I think the one thing you need to realize is this: Iris is not a traveling companion of Ash anymore. She is a potential rival for Ash because they're now competing for the same goal. And like I said, it doesn't mean Iris is going to be the one to challenge Leon, but she presents an opportunity to not only show the audience what's she's capable of after not being in the show for over 2 series, but as another potential rival for Ash. And to be honest, I'd rather they do that than treat her as a throwaway character that Ash simply defeats and move on, especially in a battle of Dragon-type Pokemon that Iris specializes in, because wouldn't that be disrespectful to her character and her goal? And what was the point of her return?

But I'm not going continue any further in this discussion, because we may be at this forever. Let's just see how the episode unfolds okay?

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Kinda sad that we didnt get such a battle at the end of BW. How can Satoshi win from Iris, without making her look weak?

 

[ShadowForce720]

Kinda sad that we didnt get such a battle at the end of BW. How can Satoshi win from Iris, without making her look weak?

Correct me if I’m wrong but Ash has never properly beat Iris in a battle before. Also before Krookodile beating Dragonite gets brought up that one of the reasons Krookodile won that battle was because Dragonite wasn’t thinking clearly and was going on a rampage, had it not gone on a rampage and if it actually listened to Iris at the time then it’s possible that it might have won.

Also I keep seeing people trying to bring up Pikachu vs Excadrill as proof of Iris being strong, however that is a horrible example to use.

Because a important detail that people conveniently leave out is the fact that do to it’s typing Excadrill was immune to two of Pikachu’s move and resist it’s two other moves, so of course Pikachu was going to lose when it can’t really do that much to it’s opponent.

I mean heck Pikachu has always had problems trying to battle Pokémon with the a same or similar typing to Excadrill.

I mean heck Hapu’s Mudsdale was winning against Pikachu until it lost it’s immunity to Electric type moves, and once it lost it’s immunity to Electric type moves do to the sea water having a Soak like effect it wound up causing Mudsdale to lose.

At the end of both Pikachu vs Excadrill, and Krookodile vs Dragonite are horrible examples to use when trying to argue that either Ash or Iris are stronger then each other.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Iris's character is a mess and has somehow backed into a corner where no amount of fixing can help her. The extensive damage has been done.

 

[Serzooka]

I am excited to see Iris again and interested see how she's matured in their words (though after Mewtwo, I officially barring my expectations), and Goh and hopefully Koharu have interesting interactions with her. I am slightly more optimistic for the XY companions returning down the road than I have ever been before.

Iris better have Haxorous.

 

[charinija]

I do not know whether Ash will be beaten or not.

But the result will not be very important. It will be an enjoyable and exciting game.

If the game will be between Dragon types, it would be more logical for Iris to win.

Ash's Dracovish has never played a match. And Ash's Dragonite beat mega evolution in his first match.

His Dragonite is definitely too strong. But Axew, introduced in the BW series, was strong. And it gradually improved. And it evolved thi series .

Oh but I would have preferred the match between Iris's Drgonite and Ash's Dragonite.

The two are opposite characters.

Ash's Dragonite is cute, humane, smiling İris's is cool, angry, not very humane.

Two dragonite matches would have been great.

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

Would be rather weird if it wasn't it after all this time. Ash's Lucario already has a vendetta against it. They can't change the octopus for Machamp out of the blue.

Of course they can, they changed Wulfrics ace completely between batfles. They went from having Abomasnow fall quickly and Avalugg being the ace, to having Abomasnow mega evolve and becoming the ace..

 

[dman_dustin]

Would be rather weird if it wasn't it after all this time. Ash's Lucario already has a vendetta against it. They can't change the octopus for Machamp out of the blue.

They absolutely can if they do not want Lucario vs Grapploct to be the main show, the main battle.

 

[Shego]

So, Iris has returned. It’s been a very long time since the last episode of Black and White anime series.

 

[mehmeh1]

Tbh all I'm hoping is that the battle looks good

 

[Almighty Zard]

Tbh all I'm hoping is that the battle looks good

me too since this is the first time in the anime we'll ever see two dragonites fight each other.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

At the speed Ash is rising in ranks, this series feels like a 2-year deal, though.

Though I won't be surprised if the PWC is a 2-year deal but then whatever remains is a filler saga.

Orrrrr there could be 2 seasons of PWC.....

Have you met Captain Jigglypuff sir

..........of course they are a serebii moderator everything makes sense now

Today I dreamed that Íris's Dragonite lose to Ash's, but then Íris throw a pokeball and Haxorus came out! Sadly I woke up and couldn't see what happens next :/

Finally! Someone in these forums who has sane dreams lmao