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Meloetta
- Thread starter MatchMaster
- Start date
thatjeremykid
.Memento.Mori.
Step Forme gets really high attack and STAB Quick Attack, and with having Serene Grace, the move it uses to change forms (Relic Song) will have a 20% chance of putting the target to sleep. I'm thinking a moveset with Relic Song, Quick Attack, Close Combat and Shadow Claw(to hit Ghosts) would be a pretty decent set, for late-game anyways. maybe Hone Claws over Shadow Claw if you're not worried about Ghosts and want a stronger priority in Quick Attack. UU at worst i think. more likely to be BL though.
AlexandriaTheMixed
You A Stupid Hoe.
If there was a way we could put it automatically into Step Forme, I think Meloetta would be much more effective. Instead of having to waste a moveslot, and a turn.
thatjeremykid
.Memento.Mori.
I definitely agree with that. it does waste a slot, but being able to change forms (and types) in the middle of a battle is pretty nifty imo
tomatohater
Golden Sun 4?
I think it will be in the Ou tier. This is because of the sweeping abilities that the Aria forme has. The piroutte forme is a bit rubbish compared to it.
Isn't Meloetta's usefulness going to be a function of her trainer's prediction skills? Meloetta is always sent out in Aria forme, which has a monstrous Sp. Atk. and would likely make the opponent want to switch to something that can wall special attacks. On that switch, though, Meloetta might use Relic Song and become Pirhouette forme, which is going to have the sort of stats that usually scare out special walls - plus she gets the 38 point boost in base speed to become one of the fastest Pokemon in standard, meaning there's a very good chance she'll get off the first hit. This in addition to her two formes sporting different weaknesses and resistances.
Basically the opponent has to gamble on whether he or she will be dealing with a very strong special sweeper or a very strong physical sweeper. I think a decent/lucky player could put that uncertainty to good use. *shrug*
Basically the opponent has to gamble on whether he or she will be dealing with a very strong special sweeper or a very strong physical sweeper. I think a decent/lucky player could put that uncertainty to good use. *shrug*
Its going to be easy OU. Maybe not top tier, but what the **** actually switches in on it safely? When you see Meloetta what do you do.. guess what it runs? Calm Mind offense, Relic Song offense, Relic Song mixed, CM mixed, Expert Belt offense, Defensive support, Thunder Drizzle abuse etc.
It has SO MANY viable sets.
It has SO MANY viable sets.
Pretty much what Profesco said. My brief experience with Meloetta has shown that you often have to play mind games with it, guessing on whether it's running a physical or special set.
Also, what's all this garbage about Relic Song being a "waste of a moveslot," lol? It's a 75 base power STAB attack coming off a base 128 SpA stat. That's more powerful than well known coverage moves like Mamoswine's Stone Edge, Terrakion's Earthquake, and Latios's Surf. It also has a 20% chance to put the opponent to sleep, which is the same chance of Stone Edge missing (and we all know how often that happens). No, it may not be doing a ton of damage all the time, but other sweepers may have similar problems. For example, Terrakion may have Gliscor switch into Close Combat and do about as much damage as a Skarmory switching into Meloetta's Relic Song. The difference is, Meloetta now has nearly identical power, far more speed, non-crippled defenses, and it might have just put something to sleep.
Also, what's all this garbage about Relic Song being a "waste of a moveslot," lol? It's a 75 base power STAB attack coming off a base 128 SpA stat. That's more powerful than well known coverage moves like Mamoswine's Stone Edge, Terrakion's Earthquake, and Latios's Surf. It also has a 20% chance to put the opponent to sleep, which is the same chance of Stone Edge missing (and we all know how often that happens). No, it may not be doing a ton of damage all the time, but other sweepers may have similar problems. For example, Terrakion may have Gliscor switch into Close Combat and do about as much damage as a Skarmory switching into Meloetta's Relic Song. The difference is, Meloetta now has nearly identical power, far more speed, non-crippled defenses, and it might have just put something to sleep.
chanseychansey77
Elite Trainer
I heard about this one set... It goes something like this...
Meloetta@Leftovers (I think)
Nature: Lonely, I think
Ability: Serene Grace
Moves:
Hone Claws
Thunder (Though it also may have been Charge Beam)
Psychic
Maybe Brick Break, Maybe Close Combat
Okay, clearly I got it a bit confused, but the principle is the same. Use Hone Claws in Aria Form, they'll expect a switch to Pirouette Form, so they switch to a Physical Wall and get slammed upside the head by Thunder or Psychic. And when they switch to a Dark Type, hit them on the switch w/Probably Close Combat Now That I Think About It.
I thought it was cool. But, I'm sure a bunch of people who know better than I are all too happy to point out my inevitable mistake, or if I'm lucky get it better than I did.
Wouldn't be too hard.
Meloetta@Leftovers (I think)
Nature: Lonely, I think
Ability: Serene Grace
Moves:
Hone Claws
Thunder (Though it also may have been Charge Beam)
Psychic
Maybe Brick Break, Maybe Close Combat
Okay, clearly I got it a bit confused, but the principle is the same. Use Hone Claws in Aria Form, they'll expect a switch to Pirouette Form, so they switch to a Physical Wall and get slammed upside the head by Thunder or Psychic. And when they switch to a Dark Type, hit them on the switch w/Probably Close Combat Now That I Think About It.
I thought it was cool. But, I'm sure a bunch of people who know better than I are all too happy to point out my inevitable mistake, or if I'm lucky get it better than I did.
Wouldn't be too hard.
AlexandriaTheMixed
You A Stupid Hoe.
Ubstabbed CC from 77 attack won't do much. Since, Relic song isn't there.
Sorry, but Psychic/Normal loses it's Fighting Resist, and for what? Immunity to Ghost: A typing that isn't seen as much as it use to.
Meloetta will not be OU. And a single move coming off of high damage IS crappy. Sorry but pure psychic STAB with shitty speed is still shitty. Reuniclus can get away with it due to it's amazing ability and natural bulk. What does Meloetta have besides some crappy gimmick?
The Fighting/Normal is a much better typing. Normal is crappy. But fighting is nice. Too bad it's 100% out classed by Terakion. I guess if you were doing some double-fighting strat it could be useful. Too bad Meloetta starts off as a crappy psychic/normal that requires a turn to become useful.
To sum of this pokemon: Crappy.
A lot of people get really powerful moves with decent attack stats, that doesn't mean they are OU quality. Case in point: Typhlosion.
I'm sorry, but this entire paragraph doesn't make any sense. A move coming off high damage is crappy? By what standard? And what does "pure Psychic STAB" even mean? Do you think people are going to run a mono-attacker Meloetta with just its Psychic STAB in a metagame where Tyranitar and Scizor on so many teams? And its speed isn't crappy, just unfortunate for an offensive Pokemon, though good for a special tank like Meloetta. You know what a base 100 Pokemon is beating that Meloetta isn't? Positive Spe natured Gliscor, Hydreigon, and Haxorus, which are all less common than the neutral Spe natured varaints. As for your Reuniclus comparison, Meloetta's 100/77/128 bulk is actually better than Reuniclus's 110/75/85 bulk, and it also has an awesome ability in Serene Grace. And no one runs mono-attacking Reuniclus with just Psychic STAB anyways.
100% outclassed? Heck no. Terrakion has twice the weaknesses Melotta has, and two of Meloetta's weaknesses are hardly common. Meloetta also has the advantage of a much higher speed stat, letting it outspeed Pokemon like Latios, Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Dugtrio, and Alakazam, all of which can be threats to Terrakion. And I really think you're underestimating a Pokemon with better bulk than Reuniclus, decent speed for a tank, a special attack stat close to that of Latios, and a nifty ability in Serene Grace.
AlexandriaTheMixed
You A Stupid Hoe.
It's faster than Terrakion. By twenty base speed stats. It'll be the second fastest thing in OU. So I don't see how it'd be bad in that form. The only real negative about Meloetta if that you can't run a full Physially offensive set. That's about it. And it's kind of limited movepool.
umm. no it's not. Only in it's normal/fighting form is it fast.
I'm tired of seeing people take the best of both worlds and completely ignore the issues with this mon. It's slow in it's psychic form, and fast in it's fighting form. If there was a way to only use the fighting form, yes, it might make it into OU. But as of now, Since you are required to use a move to transform first, can't use a choice item while in fighting form and have a sub-par typing in normal, its simply going to be border-line and a gimmick.
Again, yes, a high powered move off of a high attack/special stat doesn't make an OU pokemon alone, if it did, Typhlosion would be OU immediately as well as Sceptile with leaf storm. But they aren't know why? Because they are predictable. Meloetta is predictable and a wasted slot on most teams. Reuniclus does what the Psychic form does so much better and with better typing, and the fighting form can't do what scarf terakion does or well, what any fighting pokemon can do due to the fact you have to waste a turn just to get this thing into the fighting form.
Use this thing, you'll fail when someone predicts your relic song to turn into the fighting form to sweep then kill you off with a scarfed revenge killer.
Unless you can sell me on the Psychic/Normal form doing something productive, this thing will not be that useful with Alakazam, Lati@s, Reuniclus, Metagross, Jirachi and a host of other psychic mon's doing what this thing does better.
Crappy gimmick is crappy on a crappy pokemon.
I'm tired of seeing people take the best of both worlds and completely ignore the issues with this mon. It's slow in it's psychic form, and fast in it's fighting form. If there was a way to only use the fighting form, yes, it might make it into OU. But as of now, Since you are required to use a move to transform first, can't use a choice item while in fighting form and have a sub-par typing in normal, its simply going to be border-line and a gimmick.
Again, yes, a high powered move off of a high attack/special stat doesn't make an OU pokemon alone, if it did, Typhlosion would be OU immediately as well as Sceptile with leaf storm. But they aren't know why? Because they are predictable. Meloetta is predictable and a wasted slot on most teams. Reuniclus does what the Psychic form does so much better and with better typing, and the fighting form can't do what scarf terakion does or well, what any fighting pokemon can do due to the fact you have to waste a turn just to get this thing into the fighting form.
Use this thing, you'll fail when someone predicts your relic song to turn into the fighting form to sweep then kill you off with a scarfed revenge killer.
Unless you can sell me on the Psychic/Normal form doing something productive, this thing will not be that useful with Alakazam, Lati@s, Reuniclus, Metagross, Jirachi and a host of other psychic mon's doing what this thing does better.
Crappy gimmick is crappy on a crappy pokemon.
Gyarados Fan
Well-Known Member
Personally I think it'll be UU.
I don't really think its OU material/.
I don't really think its OU material/.
I think that while we're sitting here complaining about OU/UU status, lets come up with some movesets that will help it stand out from it's peers. As of right now, it's simply outclassed by both Fighting types and Psychics of a similar nature. It's gimmick could be useful in a mixed set but I highly doubt it'll ever be viable due to turns wasted to get into the correct form. Life Orb would only be really useful by the Psychic form since using Relic Song would do damage, then reduce Meloetta's life to 9/10th. Choice items only work for Psychic Meloetta.
The biggest issue I think with Meloetta's movepool is lack of alternative to Close Combat. Since Fighting form requires Relic Song to be used, aka waste a turn, Meloetta may already be damaged from switching in and/or during the turn it used Relic Song. Worse yet, a Ghost type can stop Meloetta from changing forms at all since Relic Song is lol-normal type.
Another issue is faces is that Relic Song isn't even a good attack. 75 base power is atrocious. 128 SP.Atk is above average in OU, but it cannot make up for the 102 base power attack that doesn't have anything it's super effective against. It's movepool is decent special-wise, but it's physical movepool is limited to Stone Edge, Quick Attack, Close Combat and U-turn I guess. Shadow Claw is viable too, the problem is that if a Ghost is out then Relic song cannot be used anyway to turn into fighting form.
Serene Grace Psychic form is the only way this thing will probably ever be used. Thunder, Psychic, Shadowball, Focus Blast as a movepool maybe /w Scarf? Coming in on nasty ghost moves and special moves alike? But then again, Jirachi does this so much better due to typing and better speed.
It's typing and movepool are just average and that's the problem. It's gimmick is just that, a gimmick. If they release a way to make it start off in it's Fighting form, then it has more potential but even then it's still predictable, and has bad typing and a limited movepool and useless ability. Serene Grace literally does nothing for it's Physical form... bar RAWK SMASH, but lol at rock smash.
Meh, BL for sure. UU can't handle the special bulk it brings while OU simply has pokemon that do it's job soooooo much better.
The biggest issue I think with Meloetta's movepool is lack of alternative to Close Combat. Since Fighting form requires Relic Song to be used, aka waste a turn, Meloetta may already be damaged from switching in and/or during the turn it used Relic Song. Worse yet, a Ghost type can stop Meloetta from changing forms at all since Relic Song is lol-normal type.
Another issue is faces is that Relic Song isn't even a good attack. 75 base power is atrocious. 128 SP.Atk is above average in OU, but it cannot make up for the 102 base power attack that doesn't have anything it's super effective against. It's movepool is decent special-wise, but it's physical movepool is limited to Stone Edge, Quick Attack, Close Combat and U-turn I guess. Shadow Claw is viable too, the problem is that if a Ghost is out then Relic song cannot be used anyway to turn into fighting form.
Serene Grace Psychic form is the only way this thing will probably ever be used. Thunder, Psychic, Shadowball, Focus Blast as a movepool maybe /w Scarf? Coming in on nasty ghost moves and special moves alike? But then again, Jirachi does this so much better due to typing and better speed.
It's typing and movepool are just average and that's the problem. It's gimmick is just that, a gimmick. If they release a way to make it start off in it's Fighting form, then it has more potential but even then it's still predictable, and has bad typing and a limited movepool and useless ability. Serene Grace literally does nothing for it's Physical form... bar RAWK SMASH, but lol at rock smash.
Meh, BL for sure. UU can't handle the special bulk it brings while OU simply has pokemon that do it's job soooooo much better.
Base 90 speed is not slow. It ties with Lucario and beats Rotom-W, and no one calls either of them slow. In fact, it's slightly above average, seeing as how the average base speed of OU is about 83 and it outspeeds over half of the tier.
And SD Virizion really needs to use SD to become dangerous, but no one complains about him. Besides, I've already explained how Relic Song can be a useful move in and of itself, even aside from the fact that it transforms Meloetta.
And? Choice Specs is not a good idea on a Pokemon with only 77 base SpA and Choice Scarf is a waste on a Pokemon that already has an incredible base 128 speed stat. All it's really missing out on is the Choice Band, and even then Meloetta is far better off throwing around Close Combats and blowing past Skarmory with Thunder, Gliscor with HP Ice, etc.
Normal/Psychic isn't a great typing, but then again, since when has pure Psychic been a coveted typing? Sure, you lose the Fighting resistance, but the Ghost immunity means you have one less weakness than pure Psychic types.
That was never the argument. No one said that Meloetta will be OU just because it has powerful attacks and powerful offensive stats.
No, Typhlosion isn't OU because it has a SR weakness, a shallow movepool, and fairly average stats. It also doesn't have much to distinguish itself from Infernape besides access to Eruption. Sceptile isn't OU because of its frailty, average power, and the fact that other offensive Grass types like Breloom and Virizion have qualities that make them more desirable in OU. In fact, Sceptile's ability to run a special sweeper and physical SD sweeper sets makes it rather unpredictable.
How, pray tell, is a Pokemon that can go from a special tank to a lightning-quick physical sweeper with a virtual flip of a switch predictable? Now, you want to know who's predictable? Skarmory. It literally runs the same set almost every time, with the only major difference being physically or specially defensive. Guess what tier he's been in since Gen 2.
I don't see how, to be honest. Not only is Reuniclus slower than Christmas, it's less bulky and less powerful. It also somewhat struggles to get past Tyranitar since it has low speed and relies on a shaky Focus Blast, while Meloetta breezes by with Close Combat. "Better typing" is also debatable, since adding Normal to Psychic typing trades a resistance for an immunity and loses a weakness at the same time. Not that mono-Psychic is a great typing to begin with.
I'm starting to get the feeling that you've been using Meloetta wrong. Scarf Terrakion is a revenge killer. Meloetta's P. forme is built to sweep mid to late game. They're two different Pokemon with two different roles. Not only that, but Scarf Terrakion lacks the power that Meloetta with a Life Orb has, cannot switch moves, and struggles to sweep teams when it's trapped into one move.
Or they send in, say, Scarf Terrakion, only to meet a STAB Psychic coming off a huge SpA stat.
What exactly do you think Meloetta does that those things can do better? Meloetta-A is a special tank unlike any other OU Pokemon right now. The only other OU Psychic types that even come close as special tanks are Reuniclus and Latias. Neither of them has quite the power or special bulk that Meloetta has, and each has other problems that keep it from outclassing Meloetta. That's what Meloetta does. It's a Psychic type special tank, and one that can get past Tyranitar without leaning on an unreliable Focus Blast or a puny HP Fighting.
So now Meloetta needs an alternative to the best physical Fighting attack in the game?
Drain Punch and Giga Drain are both seen as useful moves on a variety of Pokemon, the main STAB move of some, and they also have base 75 power. Hidden Power only gets up to 70 and it's used on a large variety of Pokemon for coverage. Base 75 is fairly low, but definitely not "atrocious."
Yeah, and Mt. Everest is a pretty big hill.
But what Ghosts are eager to switch into Meloetta? Gengar is scared to death of a STAB Psychic move, and Jellicent hates Thunder to death.
A P. forme mixed sweeper set works just fine. All it really needs is Close Combat and a couple of utility moves to get past Pokemon that can take said Close Combat.
Then don't use it as a Scarfer. The Hone Claws stallbreaker set is probably the best that Meloetta has to offer, and Sub CM lets it perform like no other Psychic type in OU can. I think the main reason these discussions about a Pokemon outclassing Meloetta come up is because people have this misconception that it has to perform exactly like the other Psychic types. People think that it has to run a moveset like Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/filler just like Alakazam and Reuniclus, or that the P. forme has to run a full physical set just because it has high Atk. When you actually take advantage of Meloetta's niches, then you quickly find that it is capable of things that no other Psychic type can overshadow it in.
...did you just call Serene Grace a useless ability?
Half the tier is rarely used anyway. 90 speed is not that great for Meloetta. Sure, its pretty decent on something with bulk and/or good typing but here we have a pokemon that is either A) A psychic sweeper or a fighting sweeper. It's psychic form could be used as a bulky sweeper but again, I ask, why use this thing over Reuniclus or Jirachi? Because it can trick someone into thinking it's going to transform? Jirachi is a swiss army knife and already does that to people. Again, it's speed is in fact a problem.
75 base power is not useful. If you are relying on the 20% (after Serene Grace) confuse then maybe you need to get your priorities straight. If you are talking about doing damage to whatever switches in on you, then why not just go with Terrakion or a multitude of other Fighting pokemon that can do the exact same thing but without the crappy 75BP normal special attack? 1-turn set up isn't a problem if it really sets you up. But it doesn't set up Meloetta, it gets her into the right form to set up. Why not just go SD Lucario if you really want a Physical fighting sweeper? Because he's slower? Well then use Terrakion who has a muc hbetter stab combination and can also juke out opponents by making them think it's a Scarf set or Polish set etc?
Last I checked a lot of high speed pokemon run Scarfs. Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. You said earlier a lot of low speed mons use scarfs. Why not just say 'a lot of mons use scarfs regardless of speed' instead of making this contradiction? Also, who would switch Skarmory into this thing risking it not being a Relic Song user? This is a minor point but it still begs the question. Also, I'd like to point out Jirachi and company blows through Skarmory much better with Thunder. And same scenario with Gliscor.
Pure Psychic's only big advantage admittingly has been that lovely Fighting Resist. But it is so much better than Normal/Psychic since Fighting moves are so, so much more common. Also, ghost immunity for the psychic form really isn't that big-a-deal considering it sits on top of 100/77/128 which I must admit is good if not great special bulk.
Then why will it be?
My point which I doubt you noticed was that some people were saying that 128 special attack was amazing. When in OU it's only above average I simply said that being able to fire high-powered moved does not make a pokemon OU alone.
Once you pop relic song the jig is up. If you don't relic song your first turn the jig is up. Like nearly every pokemon, once the first move is used, it can be dealt with. The problem here is that Meloetta only has 2 real viable strategies. Scarf Psychic form, or Relic Song-into-Fighting form. Both of which aren't that huge a threat and are generally lesser versions of other pokemon I mentioned.
Did you honestly just say Reuniclus is less bulky? Stat wise sure. But last I checked it gove Recover and had Magic Guard.
No, Mono typing isn't great, but it's better than P+Normal. Tyranitar won't be coming into Fight Form meloetta. Why would it? Are you going to Relic Song as someone switches in Tyranitar? Then what? No intelligent person would leave tyranitar in on Fighting-Form because it's predictably going to either Close Combat or attempt to over predict you. Sorry but you're simply showing how predictable Meloetta is with your scenario.
No, Mono typing isn't great, but it's better than P+Normal. Tyranitar won't be coming into Fight Form meloetta. Why would it? Are you going to Relic Song as someone switches in Tyranitar? Then what? No intelligent person would leave tyranitar in on Fighting-Form because it's predictably going to either Close Combat or attempt to over predict you. Sorry but you're simply showing how predictable Meloetta is with your scenario.
i'm starting to get the feeling you never used Meloetta at all.
Nobody would send Scarf Terrakion on any Meloetta, but it is a better fighting type than Fighting Form meloetta since it can boost and run a multitude of sets. If it gets a free switch like any other scarfed mon, it would kill Fighting form Meloetta. Again, it's a predictable mon.
Reuiniclus has Recover and Magic guard. It is hands down better.
Latias I don't feel would be played the same as Meloetta, apples to oranges but it does has much better typing and can switch in on a multitude of special moves (grass, fire, electric, water) which Meloetta can't
Meloetta can't get past tyranitar, only force it to switch out if it plays Relic song. Focus Miss is a bad excuse for obvious reasons.
Reuiniclus has Recover and Magic guard. It is hands down better.
Latias I don't feel would be played the same as Meloetta, apples to oranges but it does has much better typing and can switch in on a multitude of special moves (grass, fire, electric, water) which Meloetta can't
Meloetta can't get past tyranitar, only force it to switch out if it plays Relic song. Focus Miss is a bad excuse for obvious reasons.
AlexandriaTheMixed
You A Stupid Hoe.
How is Psychic/Normal Subpar? It gives it two weaknesses to Bug and Ghost. I don't see how that's gimmicky in any way.
Well then, I guess Landorus, Espeon, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Blissey, etc shouldn't be OU because they usually run just one set. Meloetta has two/three viable sets. And even if a Pokémon only has one set, does not mean it won't be OU.
These are all viable sets.
Meloetta @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / HP Ice
Meloetta @ Life Orb
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
- Substitute
A special defensive set could be used as well.