Meloetta

[Eaglehawk]

I'm just wondering how well of a mindgame can Meloetta play in OU. Just a hypothesis, a Zoroark + Melo offensive core could can seem to work. Zoro can fake a Meloetta for two reasons. First, Zoroark take normal entry hazards damage like Meloetta. Second, with Focus Blast, he can also fake a pure Special Meloetta, luring Meloetta's regular special counters, Jellicent and Jirachi, in. Zoroark can OHKO Jellicent with Night Daze and 2-3HKO Jirachi with Flamethrower. Meloetta can then come in and proceed to sing the crap out of everyone and sweep. This core is far from perfect and has many exploitable holes, but I feel this is the general direction I'm going to be taking Meloetta.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Spoiler: ...

Half the tier is rarely used anyway.

I don't get what you mean here. Half the tier is obviously used enough to be OU.

90 speed is not that great for Meloetta. Sure, its pretty decent on something with bulk and/or good typing but here we have a pokemon that is either A) A psychic sweeper or a fighting sweeper. It's psychic form could be used as a bulky sweeper but again, I ask, why use this thing over Reuniclus or Jirachi? Because it can trick someone into thinking it's going to transform? Jirachi is a swiss army knife and already does that to people.

Tank, not sweeper. It's designed to have strong offense while also taking advantage of strong bulk. It's speed and slightly higher SpA give it a stronger offensive presence than Reuniclus, and it has WAY more power than Jirachi. There's a reason that specially offensive Jirachi is so rare.

Again, it's speed is in fact a problem.

But why? You have yet to explain. You pretty much just said, "Meloetta's speed is not great. Reuniclus and Jirachi give it competition. Therefore, Meloetta's speed is a problem." That tells me nothing. Exactly how much speed does Meloetta need and why? As I explained earlier, there are only three Pokemon in OU that base 100 Pokemon beat that Meloetta doesn't (Haxorus, Hydreigon, and Gliscor), and their + Spe nature variants are much more rare than the others. Heck, you could even throw Kyurem and Darmanitan in there too. They're not too uncommon in OU either, and once again, their + Spe nature variants are more uncommon than neutral Spe nature ones.

75 base power is not useful.

It's obviously useful enough for Breloom, Celebi, Virizion, Conkeldurr, Tangrowth, and every Hidden Power user in existence.

If you are relying on the 20% (after Serene Grace) confuse then maybe you need to get your priorities straight.

Sleep, not confusion. Due to the new 5th Gen sleep mechanics, that 20% can effectively knock out an opponent's Pokemon for the rest of the match. In fact, due to a sleeping Pokemon being absolute setup bait, sleeping Pokemon are arguably worse than knocked-out Pokemon. Besides, no one said you should rely on it.

If you are talking about doing damage to whatever switches in on you, then why not just go with Terrakion or a multitude of other Fighting pokemon that can do the exact same thing but without the crappy 75BP normal special attack?

Because those other Pokemon don't have the speed that Meloetta has (again, there are 8 Pokemon between Terrakion and Meloetta-P in regards to base speed), they don't threaten with the occasional sleep, and they often have problems with Pokemon like Skarmory and Gliscor that Meloetta doesn't have.

1-turn set up isn't a problem if it really sets you up. But it doesn't set up Meloetta, it gets her into the right form to set up. Why not just go SD Lucario if you really want a Physical fighting sweeper? Because he's slower?

Yeah, pretty much. And he's walled by Ghosts without Crunch and Gliscor without Ice Punch.

Well then use Terrakion who has a muc hbetter stab combination and can also juke out opponents by making them think it's a Scarf set or Polish set etc?

Still slower, still issues with Skarmory and Gliscor unless you run SD/CB and those base 110-120 Pokemon unless you run RP/Scarf.

Last I checked a lot of high speed pokemon run Scarfs.

Latios is the fastest Pokemon that commonly uses a Scarf. Pokemon like Starmie, Alakazam, and Dugtrio never run Scarfs because of their high speed, so why should Meloetta-P use it?

Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. You said earlier a lot of low speed mons use scarfs. Why not just say 'a lot of mons use scarfs regardless of speed' instead of making this contradiction?

Find the actual quotes where I contradicted myself. I just searched the word "Scarf" on this page, and before this post, I had only used it once.

Also, who would switch Skarmory into this thing risking it not being a Relic Song user? This is a minor point but it still begs the question. Also, I'd like to point out Jirachi and company blows through Skarmory much better with Thunder. And same scenario with Gliscor.

Meloetta is predictable and a wasted slot on most teams.

But I thought Meloetta was predictable! Why would this be an issue?

Someone might not switch them into Meloetta at first, but they might once they know that it's a RS user. In fact, without Thunder and HP Ice, Skarmory and Gliscor, respectively, do a great job of stopping Meloetta cold.

And how exactly is Jirachi's 100 SpA Thunder blowing past Skarmory easier than Meloetta's 128 SpA Thunder?

Pure Psychic's only big advantage admittingly has been that lovely Fighting Resist. But it is so much better than Normal/Psychic since Fighting moves are so, so much more common. Also, ghost immunity for the psychic form really isn't that big-a-deal considering it sits on top of 100/77/128 which I must admit is good if not great special bulk.

It's mainly useful for turning Gengar from a threat to a laughing stock.

Then why will it be?

Lol, I don't disagree that it's chances of making OU are slim. In fact, it's usage in DW OU isn't too high right now. All I'm arguing is that it is not a crappy Pokemon. It still has redeeming qualities that make it usable, just like lower tier Pokemon like Slowbro and Tangrowth.

My point which I doubt you noticed was that some people were saying that 128 special attack was amazing. When in OU it's only above average I simply said that being able to fire high-powered moved does not make a pokemon OU alone.

Except for the fact that base 128 SpA arguably is amazing. It's just 4 points lower at maximum than some of the hardest hitters in the tier, a group beaten only by Volcarona and Alakazam. Sure, it doesn't have a good way to boost its SpA bar Work Up, but that never stopped Heatran or Gengar.

But again, no one said that Meloetta would be OU just because of its SpA stat. You're point was a complete strawman, addressing an argument that wasn't even there.

Once you pop relic song the jig is up. If you don't relic song your first turn the jig is up. Like nearly every pokemon, once the first move is used, it can be dealt with.

And once the jig is up...what happens? Meloetta-P is only really threatened by some bulky Psychic types, Scarfers, and random Mach Punches. A competent Meloetta user will know to remove those before attempting to sweep. That's why Meloetta-P works so well as a late-game sweeper.

The problem here is that Meloetta only has 2 real viable strategies. Scarf Psychic form, or Relic Song-into-Fighting form. Both of which aren't that huge a threat and are generally lesser versions of other pokemon I mentioned.

I'm going to just go ahead and say that Scarf Meloetta-A is not a good set, and it's definitely not the only set the Aria forme is capable of using. The Hone Claws stallbreaker set is pretty much the set to use for that forme. SubCM has a lot of competition from Latias and Jirachi, but it's certainly better than a Scarf set. And you have yet to name another Pokemon that Meloetta is a "lesser version" of.

Did you honestly just say Reuniclus is less bulky? Stat wise sure. But last I checked it gove Recover and had Magic Guard.

Recover and Magic Guard don't make it bulkier. They don't make it take less damage from attacks. They just give it more staying power.

No, Mono typing isn't great, but it's better than P+Normal. Tyranitar won't be coming into Fight Form meloetta. Why would it? Are you going to Relic Song as someone switches in Tyranitar? Then what? No intelligent person would leave tyranitar in on Fighting-Form because it's predictably going to either Close Combat or attempt to over predict you. Sorry but you're simply showing how predictable Meloetta is with your scenario.

0.o

You pretty much just illustrated the mind games associated with Meloetta and you still insist it's predictable? No matter, I'll leave that be. But who said you have to be in P. forme to use Close Combat? At +1, a 0 Atk Expert Belt Meloetta OHKOs 252/4 Tyranitar with ease. Thus, unlike other Psychic types, Tyranitar is never really safe vs. Meloetta unless it's a Scarf set coming in on a revenge kill.

i'm starting to get the feeling you never used Meloetta at all.

Cute. You didn't address my point, just swapped my words around and played "I know you are but what am I." But yes, I peaked at about 1320 on the DW OU ladder with a Meloetta team a few months ago. It's not much, but it at least shows that I'm not inexperienced with it.

Nobody would send Scarf Terrakion on any Meloetta,

You said "scarfed revenge killer." I didn't know you only had specific revenge killers in mind. You should clarify these things.

but it is a better fighting type than Fighting Form meloetta since it can boost and run a multitude of sets.

Oh sure, Terrakion's a better Fighting type overall, I'm not arguing with that. But none of the sets can completely outclass Meloetta like you make it out to be. SD and CB sets are a good deal slower. Scarf sets cannot switch moves and are weaker with the lack of Life Orb. RP sets don't have the damage output to get past Skarmory or Gliscor.

If it gets a free switch like any other scarfed mon, it would kill Fighting form Meloetta.

Or Meloetta just switches out. Whatever.

Again, it's a predictable mon.

Predictable, predictable, predictable.

Just because a Pokemon can be revenge killed does not make it predictable. A predictable Pokemon is one that you can tell its set before it even steps onto the field. Pokemon that usually run similar sets all of the time like Skarmory and the pink blobs are predictable. A Pokemon that can change into virtually an entirely different Pokemon is not predictable.

Reuiniclus has Recover and Magic guard. It is hands down better.

It's probably the more desirable choice more often than not, yes. But that does not mean it outclasses Meloetta, and it certainly does not mean that Meloetta is "crappy."

Latias I don't feel would be played the same as Meloetta, apples to oranges but it does has much better typing and can switch in on a multitude of special moves (grass, fire, electric, water) which Meloetta can't

Just because Meloetta doesn't resist a certain special move doesn't mean it can't switch into it.

Meloetta can't get past tyranitar, only force it to switch out if it plays Relic song. Focus Miss is a bad excuse for obvious reasons.

And we're using Fail Blast over Close Combat why?

 

[RDSchley]

I'm tired of aruging with someone who knows they are wrong and is now trying to confuse the masses, I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.

1. no form of recovery. Slow mons generally get away with being slow because they have some form of recovery. Meloetta does not. No, it's not fast. Stop saying it is. 90 speed is not going to get you to sweep. As for playing defensively, just drop that it's going to be played that way. It cannot recover and it has horrible resistances (Psychic, and an immunity to ghost).

2. Relic Song is bad. If you are relying on a 20% chance to sleep then there is no reasoning with you. I guess I should rely on Ancient Power to give me the 1+ boosts. It's a straight up gimmick. Yeah, its cool when it does sleep but if that is what you are using it for then you're going to lose.

3. Tyranitar is not switching in on Meloetta. Period. Why do you keep trying to insist someone is going to switch tyranitar into this thing? You song like a fool saying that. I guess since you insist on using Relic Song as a reliable sleep inducing move that the 'skill level' of the people you play against would sadly switch tyranitar into this thing. This scenario is like switching Salamence into Mamoswine because you suspect an EQ not an Ice Shard. So I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here.

4. Resistances do in fact matter. Why are steels used to much? Resistances. Stats are great but resistances are almost better in every situation. Latias has much better resists thus making Latias bulkier against those types. But again, this is Apples to Oranges. Latias is played entirely differently do it being, you know, fast.. oh and has recover... and operates in all kinds of Weather... something Meloetta can't say it does.

5. Meloetta is predictable. I'm starting to think you don't know what it means. It'll carry Relic Song if it wants to switch, Psychic-attack, A fighting move and filler. What else is there? Thunder? Energy Ball? Trick Room is done with better mons but I guess it's possible. Just fear psychic stab and it's almost guaranteed to carry a fighting move of some kind since it needs some way of getting through steel types.

What exactly does this thing threaten? Or fully check in the OU metagame that other mons do better? What about it's bulky-ness? Again, specially, it's pretty good but needs wish support and/or heal bell. In which case I ask why even bother and stick to Blissey or Jirachi or Latias or a host of many other specially bulky mons that share it's typings. How does it fair in weather?

I see the potential sure, but honestly, the OU metagame is flooded with bulky psychics and normals already. As for just pure power, I've already listed a host of other mons that do it. You even provided Latias which now that I think about it, can do Meloetta's job better too.

What pray-tell do you want Meloetta to switch in on? Ghost moves? Weak-sauce special moves? Just an example, lets say that yes, Meloetta 99% of the time scares Tyranitar off. A Fireblast from a Tyranitar still does about 30% to a max hp, 0 sp.def investment Meloetta. That is before Rocks, and Sandstorm damage.

I'm sure you'll whine that this is not the right way to use Meloetta then please provide me a stat spread that is logically sound. I guess 252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP? maybe you'll want the best case scenario where Tyranitar uses Ice Beam and a maxed HP, SP Defensive Meloetta? Then I would say that nobody would use such a thing because a close combat from psychic form meloetta with no attack evs doesn't KO standard mixed Tyranitar in this situation.

So, again a standard tyranitar, a pokemon in which Meloetta would love to switch in on, cannot scare standard mixed-attacker Tyranitar out because it cannot 1hKO it with close combat like you suggested. Close combat only does about 65-77%. with the -1 def/sp def on Meloetta, this puts it in danger of being crunched to death.So you cannot come in on tyraniter who Fire Blasts you (brings you down to 70%) then try to scare it out with a close combat. You'll only do 70% then it'll crunch you on the same turn, possibly killing you. I didn't run the calcs on the incoming crunch against a meloetta with -1 def from CC use. I think it's safe to assume it would KO a 64% (Sandstorm damage) Meloetta, but even if it didn't, I don't think your meloetta would be of much use anymore after that hit.

Sorry, Meloetta isn't that great. That calcs proved it against your scenario. I'm sure you'll say something about relic song or Switching into something else but in all honesty, you're not selling Meloetta very well. and you haven't provided a moveset that is plausible or provided any calcs against things that would truly fear Meloetta, I have... and they don't look good for it. Yeah it can 1hko some things but again and again and again.. why use this thing over X? Stop dodging the question and give me a reason to use this thing over Latias, Blissey, Reuniclus, Terrakion, Lucario, Chansey, Jirachi, heck Metagross?

It doesn't form any spectacular combos (like scizor+Rotom-W) as far as I know either. Honestly I'm trying my best here to think of a way to use this thing and I'm not seeing it. Rain team? It gets Thunder but so do a lot of other pokemon.. maybe? How about double or triples? It sets up Trick Room.

It DOES learn Work Up which may be useful to it... So maybe Relic Song, Close Combat, Work up, Psychic(Shock)? Without recovery it'll be hard pressed to really boost but I guess this is plausible. You could even replace Relic Song with Shadow Ball/Hidden Power to get around Reuniclus/other psychics and just go with that. But then what does it threaten with this set? What can it come in on, threaten, then set up without being checked? Tyranitar is a no go as stated above. Lucario I guess. I'm not running calcs on nearly every pokemon in OU but do you really want to switch this thing in on something you don't resist, take a chunk of damage then attempt to boost with only 90 speed? I'm not so sure I would. Maybe some wouldn't mind but I don't like the idea of slowly being chipped away or being punched in the face by a possible Scizor praying I can sweep off of +1 atk/sp atk with only 90 speed. I know some mons get away with it but generally thats because they are really bulky/have recovery of some kind (gliscor)/have resistances/ability that supports the sweep/etc.

So:

Work Up
Psychic/Psyshock
Close Combat
Shadowball/Shadowclaw/Hidden Power whatever/Thunder/Energy ball

Any other decent sets that may possibly work no matter how sub-par Meloetta is?

edit: it doesn't even resist poison. lol

 

[Aurath8]

I'm tired of aruging with someone who knows they are wrong and is now trying to confuse the masses, I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.

If you're tired of arguing with jesusfreak, allow me to show you how Meloetta is, in fact, useful.

1. no form of recovery. Slow mons generally get away with being slow because they have some form of recovery. Meloetta does not. No, it's not fast. Stop saying it is. 90 speed is not going to get you to sweep. As for playing defensively, just drop that it's going to be played that way. It cannot recover and it has horrible resistances (Psychic, and an immunity to ghost).

Meloetta is more of a tank/stallbreaker, the way I see it. And 90 speed is quite fast. Sure, it's no Starmie or Terakion.

2. Relic Song is bad. If you are relying on a 20% chance to sleep then there is no reasoning with you. I guess I should rely on Ancient Power to give me the 1+ boosts. It's a straight up gimmick. Yeah, its cool when it does sleep but if that is what you are using it for then you're going to lose.

The 20% chance is nice when it happens but no-one will use it for that. All its used for is for changing forms. 75 power and 20% sleep are just cool extras.

3. Tyranitar is not switching in on Meloetta. Period. Why do you keep trying to insist someone is going to switch tyranitar into this thing? You song like a fool saying that. I guess since you insist on using Relic Song as a reliable sleep inducing move that the 'skill level' of the people you play against would sadly switch tyranitar into this thing. This scenario is like switching Salamence into Mamoswine because you suspect an EQ not an Ice Shard. So I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here.

If you've already switched in and the opponent knows you aren't running Relic Song, ScarfTyranitar can come in on anything bar CC/Focus Blast.

4. Resistances do in fact matter. Why are steels used to much? Resistances. Stats are great but resistances are almost better in every situation. Latias has much better resists thus making Latias bulkier against those types. But again, this is Apples to Oranges. Latias is played entirely differently do it being, you know, fast.. oh and has recover... and operates in all kinds of Weather... something Meloetta can't say it does.

For an offensive pokemon, resistances won't matter as much to it than Latias. And as you said, Latias and Meloetta play very differently, so I'm not exactly sure what you're point was there.

5. Meloetta is predictable. I'm starting to think you don't know what it means. It'll carry Relic Song if it wants to switch, Psychic-attack, A fighting move and filler. What else is there? Thunder? Energy Ball? Trick Room is done with better mons but I guess it's possible. Just fear psychic stab and it's almost guaranteed to carry a fighting move of some kind since it needs some way of getting through steel types.

We've been over this:
1. Meloetta is not predictable. Either you face a reasonably fast and bulky Special tank, or you face a lightning quick physical sweeper giving it completely different counters. Meloetta can run more than one set you know.
2. Predictable pokemon are still seen in every tier.
It doesn't matter whether Meloetta is predictable or not, as it can still easily be viable.

What exactly does this thing threaten? Or fully check in the OU metagame that other mons do better? What about it's bulky-ness? Again, specially, it's pretty good but needs wish support and/or heal bell. In which case I ask why even bother and stick to Blissey or Jirachi or Latias or a host of many other specially bulky mons that share it's typings. How does it fair in weather?

I'm not saying Meloetta will shake OU to it's core or anything, but its not as if Meloetta will simply fall to UU or BL upon its release.

I see the potential sure, but honestly, the OU metagame is flooded with bulky psychics and normals already. As for just pure power, I've already listed a host of other mons that do it. You even provided Latias which now that I think about it, can do Meloetta's job better too.

What pray-tell do you want Meloetta to switch in on? Ghost moves? Weak-sauce special moves? Just an example, lets say that yes, Meloetta 99% of the time scares Tyranitar off. A Fireblast from a Tyranitar still does about 30% to a max hp, 0 sp.def investment Meloetta. That is before Rocks, and Sandstorm damage.

That calc you just did used a 252 spatk LO Tyranitar. All I can say is, I've never had to switch in on that before.

I'm sure you'll whine that this is not the right way to use Meloetta then please provide me a stat spread that is logically sound. I guess 252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP? maybe you'll want the best case scenario where Tyranitar uses Ice Beam and a maxed HP, SP Defensive Meloetta? Then I would say that nobody would use such a thing because a close combat from psychic form meloetta with no attack evs doesn't KO standard mixed Tyranitar in this situation.

If my memory is correct, jesusfreak was talking about using Hone Claws beforehand. A +1 Close Combat OHKOes 252/0 T-tar with no investment.

Unless you use Relic Song, in which case you just began your sweep.

Yeah it can 1hko some things but again and again and again.. why use this thing over X? Stop dodging the question and give me a reason to use this thing over Latias, Blissey, Reuniclus, Terrakion, Lucario, Chansey, Jirachi, heck Metagross?

Because Meloetta plays slightly different to all those listed. It sounds cheesy, I know but Meloetta is quite a unique Pokemon with a weird stat distribution and Relic Song. Its better than some of its peers in some respects and worse in others and on the face of it, it doesn't really stand out among them But it can stand equal to them.

 

[Blue Harvest]

I'm tired of aruging with someone who knows they are wrong and is now trying to confuse the masses, I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.

You should really try to be nicer.

1. no form of recovery. Slow mons generally get away with being slow because they have some form of recovery. Meloetta does not. No, it's not fast. Stop saying it is. 90 speed is not going to get you to sweep. As for playing defensively, just drop that it's going to be played that way. It cannot recover and it has horrible resistances (Psychic, and an immunity to ghost).

How hard is it to understand that you only use Close Combat to get a KO. The reason Close Combat is such a good move is because if you play well you will never have to worry about the -1 defenses as you either hit first and KO, or hit second and not take a -1 defense hit. 90 base speed is more than enough to blaze through defensive teams meaning mixed sets can wreck havok. 90 base speed isn't sweeper material but it is still very fast. A boosting nature outruns a TON of legit threats like Gyarados, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Adamant Lucario etc.

2. Relic Song is bad. If you are relying on a 20% chance to sleep then there is no reasoning with you. I guess I should rely on Ancient Power to give me the 1+ boosts. It's a straight up gimmick. Yeah, its cool when it does sleep but if that is what you are using it for then you're going to lose.

No, it's not that great but Relic Song is far from useless. Relic Song plays more like Dragon Dance that does damage and has a 20% chance to OHKO. You also seem to assume every set will use Relic Song. Why?

4. Resistances do in fact matter. Why are steels used to much? Resistances. Stats are great but resistances are almost better in every situation. Latias has much better resists thus making Latias bulkier against those types. But again, this is Apples to Oranges. Latias is played entirely differently do it being, you know, fast.. oh and has recover... and operates in all kinds of Weather... something Meloetta can't say it does.

This is true, Meloetta has crappy typing. It isn't an inferior Latias though. Besides being Psychic type and having good Special Defense they have very little in common.

5. Meloetta is predictable. I'm starting to think you don't know what it means. It'll carry Relic Song if it wants to switch, Psychic-attack, A fighting move and filler. What else is there? Thunder? Energy Ball? Trick Room is done with better mons but I guess it's possible. Just fear psychic stab and it's almost guaranteed to carry a fighting move of some kind since it needs some way of getting through steel types.

Meloetta is probably one of the least predictable Pokemon since Mew. Probably the only thing you can be sure of is it running Close Combat and even then you can't be 100% certain.

What exactly does this thing threaten? Or fully check in the OU metagame that other mons do better? What about it's bulky-ness? Again, specially, it's pretty good but needs wish support and/or heal bell. In which case I ask why even bother and stick to Blissey or Jirachi or Latias or a host of many other specially bulky mons that share it's typings. How does it fair in weather?

I doubt this will be high OU. To be honest it's true Meloetta isn't perfect. It isn't like Latios or Terrakion that can get KOs by clicking on or two attacks or like defensive behemoths like Blissey but Meloetta has a unique set of moves, typing and stats that nothing else can brag about. It has such a massive movepool and offensive power due to its ability to Transform, not to mention Relic Song (if it runs it) having a chance of "OHKOing" (sorta).

I see the potential sure, but honestly, the OU metagame is flooded with bulky psychics and normals already. As for just pure power, I've already listed a host of other mons that do it. You even provided Latias which now that I think about it, can do Meloetta's job better too.

The only normal types in OU are the pink blobs which Meloetta is nothing like. There are 9 Psychics in OU all of which are completely different. You don't seem to understand Meloetta isn't about power or bulk it's about unpredictability. It can run SO MANY sets all of which have completely different counters.

What pray-tell do you want Meloetta to switch in on? Ghost moves? Weak-sauce special moves? Just an example, lets say that yes, Meloetta 99% of the time scares Tyranitar off. A Fireblast from a Tyranitar still does about 30% to a max hp, 0 sp.def investment Meloetta. That is before Rocks, and Sandstorm damage.

Uhh, no. It does 21% - 25% from MAX Special Attack Tyranitar. Virtually no Tyranitar run Special Attack. Fire Blast will do 16.8% - 19.8% to max HP Meloetta. It's true Meloetta has few switch in opportunities. It has great bulk though so don't act like it dies to a neutral hit.

I'm sure you'll whine that this is not the right way to use Meloetta then please provide me a stat spread that is logically sound. I guess 252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP? maybe you'll want the best case scenario where Tyranitar uses Ice Beam and a maxed HP, SP Defensive Meloetta? Then I would say that nobody would use such a thing because a close combat from psychic form meloetta with no attack evs doesn't KO standard mixed Tyranitar in this situation.

252 SA / 252 HP? Of course you think Meloetta is bad.


I'll add some set examples later, but I have to go do stuff now.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Spoiler: ...

I'm tired of aruging with someone who knows they are wrong and is now trying to confuse the masses,

I just read this and laughed. So now you're going to open up by saying, "I'm right, admit you're wrong!" Lol, learn how to have a rational argument or just stop.

I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.

Oh goodie, and I'll correct every mistake you make along the way.

1. no form of recovery.

If you need recovery that badly, just use ChestoRest or Wish support. Like I said earlier (which you probably ignored, go figure), stop assuming that Meloetta must be played like other Psychic types. Meloetta is not Reuniclus. It does not play like Reuniclus. Stop trying to equate it to Reuniclus.

Slow mons generally get away with being slow because they have some form of recovery. Meloetta does not. No, it's not fast. Stop saying it is. 90 speed is not going to get you to sweep.

Lol, let's recap this, shall we?

You: Meloetta is slow.
Me: It's not slow. Base 90 speed is decent, above average even.
You: Meloetta is not fast. Stop saying it is.

I never said Meloetta was fast, just plenty fast enough. And let me ask you something. Any competent player will tell you that Pokemon like Mamoswine, Rotom-W, and Heatran are capable of sweeping teams, so what makes you think that an even faster Pokemon like Meloetta isn't?

As for playing defensively, just drop that it's going to be played that way. It cannot recover and it has horrible resistances (Psychic, and an immunity to ghost).

Oh, another strawman! Quote where I said that you should play it defensively. You know which sets I've mentioned? Hone Claws stallbreaker (offensive), SubCM (offensive), and for the P. forme, mixed attacker (offensive). I'll I've said about Meloetta defensively is that it has insane special bulk to compliment its decent speed and high SpA.

Quit putting words in my mouth. They taste terrible.

2. Relic Song is bad. If you are relying on a 20% chance to sleep then there is no reasoning with you. I guess I should rely on Ancient Power to give me the 1+ boosts. It's a straight up gimmick. Yeah, its cool when it does sleep but if that is what you are using it for then you're going to lose.

Again, it would really help to read my posts instead of assuming what I said. I said specifically that no one said you should be relying on that 20% sleep chance. That sleep ratio is not the reason to use Meloetta and does not make Relic Song a great move, but it makes it dangerous for any Pokemon to switch into that isn't a Ghost type or immune to sleep.

3. Tyranitar is not switching in on Meloetta. Period. Why do you keep trying to insist someone is going to switch tyranitar into this thing? You song like a fool saying that.

You do realize that you were the one to suggest Tyranitar would switch into Meloetta, right? I think that makes you the "fool." All I said is that with Close Combat, Meloetta has a much easier time getting past Tyranitar, which is usually the bane of most Psychic types. That's all.

Ow, that must hurt, shooting yourself in the foot like that.

I guess since you insist on using Relic Song as a reliable sleep inducing move that the 'skill level' of the people you play against would sadly switch tyranitar into this thing.

Two problems here. First, another strawman. I specifically have said that Relic Song should not be relied on as a sleep move, but you insist I said it should anyways. Not even surpised at this point, to be honest. Next you just throw ad hominem at tme and try to say that I just fight low skilled people. Amongst all this, you have yet to make a solid point.

This scenario is like switching Salamence into Mamoswine because you suspect an EQ not an Ice Shard. So I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here.

Again, your idea, not mine. As a matter of fact...

Thus, unlike other Psychic types, Tyranitar is never really safe vs. Meloetta unless it's a Scarf set coming in on a revenge kill.

Funny how you insulted zerofield on his reading skills in that other thread and then fail miserably to actually read my last post.

4. Resistances do in fact matter. Why are steels used to much? Resistances. Stats are great but resistances are almost better in every situation. Latias has much better resists thus making Latias bulkier against those types. But again, this is Apples to Oranges. Latias is played entirely differently do it being, you know, fast.. oh and has recover... and operates in all kinds of Weather... something Meloetta can't say it does.

Yes, resistances do matter. I never said they didn't, just that the Normal/Psychic typing isn't the end of the world for Meloetta. If lack of resistances are that much of an issue, why is Reuniclus OU? Or Blissey and Chansey? Or Snorlax last Gen? Sometimes raw stats and a niche is all you need, but again, you are going to blow up every weakness you see to such an extent that you make a Pokemon sound like crap when it isn't. And how exactly is Latias operating in weather more easily than Meloetta? The only real advantage it has is using Surf in the Rain. Yay.

5. Meloetta is predictable. I'm starting to think you don't know what it means. It'll carry Relic Song if it wants to switch, Psychic-attack, A fighting move and filler. What else is there? Thunder? Energy Ball? Trick Room is done with better mons but I guess it's possible. Just fear psychic stab and it's almost guaranteed to carry a fighting move of some kind since it needs some way of getting through steel types.

So just by looking at it on team preview, you can pretty much tell what set it's running? Because when you say "predictable," that's what you imply. Let's look at your example a while ago.

Are you going to Relic Song as someone switches in Tyranitar? Then what? No intelligent person would leave tyranitar in on Fighting-Form because it's predictably going to either Close Combat or attempt to over predict you.

So according to your example, a player might switch Tyranitar into Meloetta only to find themselves face to face with the P. forme. Now they have to switch out, waste momentum, and send something in to take a Close Combat or hope the opponent doesn't "over predict" and kill the switch in. Sounds like a big misprediction and possible misprediction to follow. But if Meloetta were predictable, that kind of thing wouldn't happen.

Honestly, just look at it. If it runs Relic Song, it becomes a fast physical sweeper with Normal/Fighting typing. When it's not, it's a special tank with Normal/Psychic typing. But until you see it, you have no idea which one it will turn out to be. It doesn't get much more unpredictable than that. So really, stop using the predictablility argument. It's terrible.

What exactly does this thing threaten?

I thought the term "stallbreaker" would have clued you in. And the P. forme has the greatest combination of speed and offense of any Pokemon in OU. Put the pieces together.

Or fully check in the OU metagame that other mons do better?

It's probably the greatest Gengar counter in the world, which is kinda cool.

What about it's bulky-ness? Again, specially, it's pretty good but needs wish support and/or heal bell. In which case I ask why even bother and stick to Blissey or Jirachi or Latias or a host of many other specially bulky mons that share it's typings.

Jirachi and Latias are weaker. Jirachi is considerably less bulky on the special side. Latias doesn't get past Tyranitar without HP Fighting. Blissey for offense...lol.

How does it fair in weather?

Lol, Rain support is great for it. It lets it run a 120 bp Thunder with a 60% to paralyze whatever it hits.

I see the potential sure, but honestly, the OU metagame is flooded with bulky psychics and normals already.

5 Psychic types that could even be somewhat considered bulky, and 2 Normal types. Flooded, you say?

As for just pure power, I've already listed a host of other mons that do it. You even provided Latias which now that I think about it, can do Meloetta's job better too.

I must have missed that, seeing as how you have yet to name one Psychic type as powerful as Meloetta. Reuniclus is close, but I've already mentioned the issues with that.

What pray-tell do you want Meloetta to switch in on? Ghost moves? Weak-sauce special moves? Just an example, lets say that yes, Meloetta 99% of the time scares Tyranitar off. A Fireblast from a Tyranitar still does about 30% to a max hp, 0 sp.def investment Meloetta. That is before Rocks, and Sandstorm damage.

Hmm, good question. What could the Pokemon with greatest special bulk of any OU Pokemon bar the pink blobs possibly switch into?

I'm sure you'll whine that this is not the right way to use Meloetta then please provide me a stat spread that is logically sound. I guess 252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP?

252 SA / 252 HP? Of course you think Meloetta is bad.

Quoting for truth.

So, again a standard tyranitar, a pokemon in which Meloetta would love to switch in on, cannot scare standard mixed-attacker Tyranitar out because it cannot 1hKO it with close combat like you suggested. Close combat only does about 65-77%. with the -1 def/sp def on Meloetta, this puts it in danger of being crunched to death.So you cannot come in on tyraniter who Fire Blasts you (brings you down to 70%) then try to scare it out with a close combat. You'll only do 70% then it'll crunch you on the same turn, possibly killing you. I didn't run the calcs on the incoming crunch against a meloetta with -1 def from CC use. I think it's safe to assume it would KO a 64% (Sandstorm damage) Meloetta, but even if it didn't, I don't think your meloetta would be of much use anymore after that hit.

Lol, now I know you haven't played with Meloetta. You don't switch Meloetta into Tyranitar, silly. You use Close Combat to beat Tyranitar if it tries to come in and stop you. If you know what you're doing, you should hopefully have at least one Hone Claws up, which ensures the OHKO. And what item are you running exaclty? A 4 Atk +0 LO Close Combat does 82.18% - 97.03% to 252/4 Tyrnaitar, an 58% chance to OHKO after SR.

Sorry, Meloetta isn't that great. That calcs proved it against your scenario.

No offense, but your calc was terrible. You pretty much gave yourself the best scenario without actually researching what items and strategies Meloetta actually runs, or how to use it.

I'm sure you'll say something about relic song or Switching into something else but in all honesty, you're not selling Meloetta very well. and you haven't provided a moveset that is plausible or provided any calcs against things that would truly fear Meloetta, I have... and they don't look good for it. Yeah it can 1hko some things but again and again and again.. why use this thing over X? Stop dodging the question and give me a reason to use this thing over Latias, Blissey, Reuniclus, Terrakion, Lucario, Chansey, Jirachi, heck Metagross?

Here's a collection of quotes by yours truly.

As for your Reuniclus comparison, Meloetta's 100/77/128 bulk is actually better than Reuniclus's 110/75/85 bulk, and it also has an awesome ability in Serene Grace.

Terrakion has twice the weaknesses Melotta has, and two of Meloetta's weaknesses are hardly common. Meloetta also has the advantage of a much higher speed stat, letting it outspeed Pokemon like Latios, Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Dugtrio, and Alakazam, all of which can be threats to Terrakion.

Not only is Reuniclus slower than Christmas, it's less bulky and less powerful. It also somewhat struggles to get past Tyranitar since it has low speed and relies on a shaky Focus Blast, while Meloetta breezes by with Close Combat.

Scarf Terrakion is a revenge killer. Meloetta's P. forme is built to sweep mid to late game. They're two different Pokemon with two different roles. Not only that, but Scarf Terrakion lacks the power that Meloetta with a Life Orb has, cannot switch moves, and struggles to sweep teams when it's trapped into one move.

The only other OU Psychic types that even come close as special tanks are Reuniclus and Latias. Neither of them has quite the power or special bulk that Meloetta has, and each has other problems that keep it from outclassing Meloetta. That's what Meloetta does. It's a Psychic type special tank, and one that can get past Tyranitar without leaning on an unreliable Focus Blast or a puny HP Fighting.

It's designed to have strong offense while also taking advantage of strong bulk. It's speed and slightly higher SpA give it a stronger offensive presence than Reuniclus, and it has WAY more power than Jirachi. There's a reason that specially offensive Jirachi is so rare.

Because those other Pokemon don't have the speed that Meloetta has (again, there are 8 Pokemon between Terrakion and Meloetta-P in regards to base speed), they don't threaten with the occasional sleep, and they often have problems with Pokemon like Skarmory and Gliscor that Meloetta doesn't have.

Yeah, pretty much. And [Lucario's] walled by Ghosts without Crunch and Gliscor without Ice Punch.

[Terrakion is] still slower, still issues with Skarmory and Gliscor unless you run SD/CB and those base 110-120 Pokemon unless you run RP/Scarf.

These are all reason I've given, plus you might find some others in this post if you would just read it. I never dodged the question. You've just been dodging the answers.

It doesn't form any spectacular combos (like scizor+Rotom-W) as far as I know either. Honestly I'm trying my best here to think of a way to use this thing and I'm not seeing it. Rain team? It gets Thunder but so do a lot of other pokemon.. maybe? How about double or triples? It sets up Trick Room.

I'm tired of naming the sets that myself and many DW players have actually found to work. If you keep ignoring the tried and true sets that I keep mentioning, then what point is there in even bringing this up again?

It DOES learn Work Up which may be useful to it... So maybe Relic Song, Close Combat, Work up, Psychic(Shock)? Without recovery it'll be hard pressed to really boost but I guess this is plausible. You could even replace Relic Song with Shadow Ball/Hidden Power to get around Reuniclus/other psychics and just go with that. But then what does it threaten with this set? What can it come in on, threaten, then set up without being checked? Tyranitar is a no go as stated above. Lucario I guess. I'm not running calcs on nearly every pokemon in OU but do you really want to switch this thing in on something you don't resist, take a chunk of damage then attempt to boost with only 90 speed? I'm not so sure I would. Maybe some wouldn't mind but I don't like the idea of slowly being chipped away or being punched in the face by a possible Scizor praying I can sweep off of +1 atk/sp atk with only 90 speed. I know some mons get away with it but generally thats because they are really bulky/have recovery of some kind (gliscor)/have resistances/ability that supports the sweep/etc.

Relic Song pretty much is a setup move that does a little damage and might put something to sleep. Why would you run Work Up and Relic Song? No wonder you think Meloetta sucks! You don't have the foggiest clue how to use it! As far as switch ins, many Pokemon like Tentacruel, Jellicent, Gengar, and Blissey might use special attacks that are ineffective against Meloetta that it wouldn't mind switching in on. But just because Meloetta has great bulk doesn't mean you should switch it in every chance you get. That bulk is great for letting it survive some attacks from would-be revenge killers, something that frailer Pokemon like Lucario cannot do. If you waste its valuable health trying to switch in every now and then, you're just using it wrong.

So:

Work Up
Psychic/Psyshock
Close Combat
Shadowball/Shadowclaw/Hidden Power whatever/Thunder/Energy ball

Any other decent sets that may possibly work no matter how sub-par Meloetta is?

For once, you almost come up with a decent set, but no.

Meloetta@Life Orb
Naive/Hasty
Serene Grace
252 SpA, 4 Atk, 252 Spe
-Hone Claws
-Close Combat
-Thunder
-Psychic

This is one of the Meloetta-A sets that myself and many DW players, people who actually know what they're doing, have found tried and true. It breaks key members of stall teams down the middle, which is great for balanced offensive teams.

Meloetta@Life Orb
Naive
Serene Grace
232 Atk, 84 SpA, 192 Spe
-Relic Song
-Close Combat
-Thunder/Thunderbolt
-HP Ice/Psychic

And this is one of the best ways to use Meloetta-P. Throw around Close Combats, kill Skarm and Jellicent with Thunder (or TBolt outside of Rain) and Gliscor with HP Ice. They're also useful if you want to remain in Aria forme, in which case Psychic is just a great STAB to have. It also nails Gengar in P. forme, who is also immune to Close Combat.

edit: it doesn't even resist poison. lol

This was either a joke, a bad trolling attempt, or really dumb. I'm having a hard time deciding which.

 

[Mudkipzroks]

I would agree with what profesco said and i might just use meleotta in battle

 

[Klaus™]

honestly, i cant wait to try out meloetta. serene grace is always a good boon to a poke, even on dunsparce XD. add that to iits ability to switch formes, and it can be almost uncounterable, as it seems to have different counters to each form, i.e. jesus's example of tyranitar. doesnt want to switch in on it at all for fear of a relic song. alas, an item to change it, like gracidea on skymin, would help.

and rdschley....just stop. you have been counter-argued by 3 very contributing members of SPPF. 2 of them mods. honestly, i cannot even add to jesus's comments, as i have never played dw ou, and he has already said everything.

 

[Zachmac]

and rdschley....just stop. you have been counter-argued by 3 very contributing members of SPPF. 2 of them mods. honestly, i cannot even add to jesus's comments, as i have never played dw ou, and he has already said everything.

Would be four members, if I wasn't tired and lazy.

I agree that this thing can be used without being outclassed, I'm just not up to arguing right now....

But really? Asking for a good reason to use it over Blissy and Metagross? As if it isn't obvious just by looking at the stats...

I guess since you insist on using Relic Song as a reliable sleep inducing move that the 'skill level' of the people you play against would sadly switch tyranitar into this thing.

Oh my gosh! Everyone look at this! Someone is implying that Jesusfreak is bad!

 

[Ilan]

I can't see how changing forms is a bad thing... it is one of 3 pokemons who can switch types mid battle (not including camoflage) the the other two are terrible (kecleon and castform) while meloetta is actually really good it can change all her weakness for neutral or resistance

weakness in aria form: dark,bug
resistances in piroette form: dark,bug,rock

weaknesses in piroette form: flying,psychic,fighting
resistances in aria form:psychic

immunity to ghost

STAB on 3 types!

Actually I tried the piroette form but I had problems pulling it off.. I used a sub CM set with 252HP/252defense bold spread with relic song to change weaknesses and psychic as main STAB.
and BTW relic song is a base 112 attack after STAB and is resisted by 2 types and doesn't affect ghost I don't see how it is "useless" the 20% sleep chance is a BONUS not something to relay on but an extra.


Also there could be a way to change the form in which meloetta enters the battle in B2W2 it would make it more interesting.

 

[ParaChomp]

Anyone here play DW OU? If so, mind sharing your results?

 

[Klaus™]

looking through its movepool, two moves really stood out to me: thunder(duh) and teeter dance. with its high speed, im just asking the more experienced people, would a hax set be viable. im not going to touch the evs/nature, but just a draft: teeter dance/ thunder(wave)/ relic song(shadow ball)/ psychic(psyshock) work? an all special set, relying on sheer bulk and confusion/paralysis work? i hope it gets extrasensory/body slam/iron head via move tutor, to allow it more hax.

 

[AlexandriaTheMixed]

I'm tired of aruging with someone who knows they are wrong and is now trying to confuse the masses, I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.

edit: it doesn't even resist poison. lol

I feel Jesusfreak should be saying this. Suck up your pride and admit you are wrong. You're making a larger fool of yourself by staying with the argument.

looking through its movepool, two moves really stood out to me: thunder(duh) and teeter dance. with its high speed, im just asking the more experienced people, would a hax set be viable. im not going to touch the evs/nature, but just a draft: teeter dance/ thunder(wave)/ relic song(shadow ball)/ psychic(psyshock) work? an all special set, relying on sheer bulk and confusion/paralysis work? i hope it gets extrasensory/body slam/iron head via move tutor, to allow it more hax.

Teeterdance? Parafuse! :3 Sub / Wish / Thunder / Teeterdance. More of a gimmick. Needs to be used in rain. But, looks like it'd be fun.

 

[ParaChomp]

I feel Jesusfreak should be saying this. Suck up your pride and admit you are wrong. You're making a larger fool of yourself by staying with the argument.


Teeterdance? Parafuse! :3 Sub / Wish / Thunder / Teeterdance. More of a gimmick. Needs to be used in rain. But, looks like it'd be fun.

Then there's Jirachi...

 

[Zachmac]

Teeterdance? Parafuse! :3 Sub / Wish / Thunder / Teeterdance. More of a gimmick. Needs to be used in rain. But, looks like it'd be fun.

I've used a similar Bellosom set for trolling, and I've got to say it's not that bad. Even though it still is gimmicky, it's workable.

Then there's Jirachi...

Yeah, SubJirachi probably is better, though Teeterdance would be more helpful then flinches in some cases, Jirachi has the typing to do it better.

 

[Klaus™]

you could always try hax team with both of those. include hazards a bit in there, and force switches. flinch them to death while they are confused. a right pain in the ***,, imo.

 

[MatchMaster]

With Relic Song being the only move that can be used to have a chance, but not a 100% chance, to put the target to sleep if it hits, I guess you can't use it if sleep clause is activated, due to the chance of putting the target to sleep.

 

[Klaus™]

do you know how sleep clause works? it wont put it to sleep, at all, if another poke is asleep. doesnt mean you cant use it. you can use it, just its affect wont happen, and if it does, it'll say something like, "sleep clause in effect"

 

[MatchMaster]

do you know how sleep clause works? it wont put it to sleep, at all, if another poke is asleep. doesnt mean you cant use it. you can use it, just its affect wont happen, and if it does, it'll say something like, "sleep clause in effect"

Right. I'm still getting used to the rules of that.

 

[Yellow De Viridian Grove]

Jirachi can already run a parafusion set with Thunder/Water Pulse/CM(or Wish)/Sub. You're already abusing THunder on Molota, so you need rain. Plus, using an 8 pp attack in a mono-attacking set is not good unless you are boosting, Arceus, or have no immunities. Ground types completely Wall you, and frankly, Jirachi just does it better imo. Better typing, bulkier, and can set-up easier.