Merry... Culturemas?

[Avenger Angel]

Oh well. I still don't think Christmas as it's practiced right now is particularly Christian though. There's a lot in it for everyone.

This is pretty much the case with every Christian holiday, however. Valentine's Day is a Christian holiday also, and I'm sure loads of atheists will still go out and buy their atheist girlfriends and wives flowers and chocolates. And on Saint Patrick's Day, another Christian holiday, I'm sure plenty of atheists will get drunk enough to the point where they can't tell if the clover decorations the pub put up have three leaves or four leaves. And I'm sure on Easter, plenty of atheist kids will go egg hunting and eating chocolate, thinking it's always and only been about the Easter Bunny and the coming of Spring all along.

Right, atheists have the choice to do whatever they like, but they shouldn't feel Christians are "stupid" because we still find religious meaning and origin behind these celebrations, even if atheists have forgotten them or don't regard them. It's like deciding to play baseball while changing the rules to use a tennis ball and five bases instead, still call it baseball, and then accuse the players who stick to using the original rules of being "stupid" because that's how they remember and choose to play it.

 

[DocGoblin]

I am not against nonChristians celebrating Christmas as a family get together and coming closer together, as long as the dont try to take Christ out of it. As in completely erase the word Christmas, taking the nativity out of the picture, etc etc(I know not every nonChristian is doing that)

Maybe one person will hear the story behind Christmas one day and do research and decide Christ is for them.

So I am not against it, but they shouldnt be annoyed or angered if someone brings Jesus Christ into it

But the story behind Christmas revolves around Pagen traditions and the Germanic Yuletide, they were celebrating Christmas long before Christianity.

 

[mattj]

actually you're mistaken

 

[DocGoblin]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

 

[mattj]

cool link bro
each of its points have already been shown to be inaccurate
if you'd care to argue an individual point i'd be happy to show you where you're wrong but
[edit]
just for an example from your link:

Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia

This has been proven false. Christians had suggested the date December 25th before Saturnalia was introduced.
and other parts like:

Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.
...
The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
...
the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.

are just jaw-droppingly baseless fabrications

 

[DocGoblin]

It's ironic that you of all people could call anything posted by someone else a fabrication lol.

prove to me that that page and the countless others are wrong, that the historians who state those points as facts are wrong.

 

[mattj]

i already did
there are these cool things called links
you click them
and follow them
and read what they have to say and

but if you just want to live in your own fantasy world where facts don't have to be checked and whatnot, feel free

now, again, if you want to discuss a single point I'd be happy to
you're original claim is wrong though

 

[DocGoblin]

but if you just want to live in your own fantasy world where facts don't have to be checked and whatnot, feel free

Isn't that exactly what you're doing in the "rights" thread?

As per all you've posted is subjective and bias speculation. None of those links disprove when the Pagans were celebrating, whereas plenty of trusted historians will tell you it was prior to the Christian holiday of Christmas.

 

[mattj]

I'm glad you trust strangers. I looked it up myself. Dec 25th was suggested as Christ's birthday circa 200AD. Saturnalia was instituted after that. Don't believe me? Follow those links. They link to transcripts of the actual ancient documents that record the events themselves, not some random liberal internet site.

 

[DocGoblin]

> Doesn't say what you want it to say
> Must be Liberal then

 

[mattj]

again would you like to discuss any of the individual points or



or what are you doing here

 

[DocGoblin]

Yule is wildly accepted to pre-date Chrismas, as is Saturnalia, there is proof of both been celebrated long before the Christian Christmas and from what the birth story tells us, including the positioning of the stars, Christ was almost certainly born in either early spring or early autumn.

 

[mattj]

cool story bro
I've already proven that December 25th was suggested for Christs' B'day as early as 200AD if not earlier. Can you prove that Yule or Saturnalia predated 200AD?

no?

its cool its cool

[edit]
The earliest reference to Yule that I could find on wikipedia was in the 800s
sorry bro :/

 

[DocGoblin]

Erryone knows wiki is 100% trustworthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule#Pre-Christian_traditions

You're all kinds of special, you. The reference to the 800s was the historian who first translated the original month names, not the holiday. It mentions (in relation to the words the historian of the 8th century translated) the Saxons of the 300s who were descendants of the Germanic tribes, that's 500 years prior to when you're claiming the earliest Yule was.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Yule is wildly accepted to pre-date Chrismas, as is Saturnalia, there is proof of both been celebrated long before the Christian Christmas and from what the birth story tells us, including the positioning of the stars, Christ was almost certainly born in either early spring or early autumn.

Okay, I'm pretty sure Yule wasn't celebrated in that part of the world.


Second, mattj, I never proved that Saturnalia wasn't celebrated before Christmas. I proved that the birthday of Sol Invictus postdated the 200 A.D. date (since the general worship of that God wasn't introduced in Rome until much later).

However, DocGoblin it would still be an exaggeration to state that Christianity certainly borrowed anything from Saturnalia. Sure, it featured gift-giving, but plenty of holidays from around the world feature that. Worship of a child? No, Saturnalia didn't have that, so Christians couldn't have borrowed it from there. And...Saturnalia wasn't even on the 25th.

 

[DocGoblin]

I meant that the date of Christmas was decided to counteract Pagan traditions.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Erryone knows wiki is 100% trustworthy.

Everyone knows sources dedicated to Judaism are 100% trustworthy on Christian stuff.

I meant that the date of Christmas was decided to counteract Pagan traditions.

General time of year? Possibly. Day? Doesn't look like it, since numerous sources indicate that Saturnalia, a multi-day feast, was finished before the 25th.

And counteracting is not the same as borrowing.

 

[DocGoblin]

Saturnalia was celebrated from the 17th iirc.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

So if its first day is the 17th...what is its last day?

 

[mattj]

I meant that the date of Christmas was decided to counteract Pagan traditions.

what historical evidence do you have to support this incredible baseless accusation

And concerning Yule dating to 300AD 1) you provided no historical evidence to support this 2) thats still 100 years after Christians suggested Dec 25 for Christ's Bday.
sorry
Dec 25 came before yule
you and your source are mistaken