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Merry... Culturemas?

M

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
Mattj said:
The one point that I will stand in contention with is that "Christianity stole some pagan holiday". This is not true and cannot be supported by historical fact.
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It's not that Christian's stole the holiday, it's more like they have it the same time as the Jews, Greeks, Romans, Celts, ect. Apparently many many religions all had stuff happen the same time as each other... *shrug*
 
T

TheFightingPikachu

Smashing!
Malanu said:
It's not that Christian's stole the holiday, it's more like they have it the same time as the Jews, Greeks, Romans, Celts, ect. Apparently many many religions all had stuff happen the same time as each other... *shrug*
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I agree with the above in a general way, but I'd just like to point out that, as has been discussed before, there is an important timing issue with that claim. It is not clear that any pagans in that part of the world held a celebration specifically on December 25th before the Christians did. Other than that, I agree that the general time of year was a popular one for some type of celebration.

(Also, to address your previous post, I don't think Yule was celebrated in the Mediterranean, and I think the holiday wasn't celebrated until a number of centuries after Christmas had already gained widespread popularity.)
 
M

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
The specific date isn't the point per se. Nor is the point of origin. Just that many cultures have a winter(Decemberish) holiday in the neighborhood of Christmas. Christians put a pin in the one day they wanted, but they were not the only group celebrating something around that time.

I don't know, the Greek gods came down all the time and begot children, Christians get one demi god and they put him on a Pedestal. Sorry but it how I look at the whole Jesus myth.
 
M

Megaton666

Swampert Trainer
I love a good theological debate.
Now to the point. Christmas is barely christian and any christian who actually believes it is is either lying to themselves or just stupid.
 
M

Megaton666

Swampert Trainer
mattj said:
that's a cool baseless bigoted opinion you've got there

would you mind backing it up with any evidence or










?
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You mean the same way everyone else with the same opinion have? No, they already did it.
 
M

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
Should non-Christians celebrate Christmas?
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If by this the OP means should they celebrate the birth of JC the answer is, no. It is not of their religious belief and to enforce such would be wrong.

If however you mean the 'non religious gift giving holiday' the masses celebrate on December 25th, then sure they can... if they wish to. Santa doesn't mind and is actually non Denominational.
 
S

SlimShady

Kill your heroes
Jesus wasn't even born on Christmas. He was born during the fall harvest, so September or October. Everyone should celebrate Christmas as a cultural celebratory event. That's pretty much all it is these days anyway.
 
M

mattj

.
Megaton666 said:
You mean the same way everyone else with the same opinion ha? No, they already did it.
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Would you mind showing all of us exactly where your baseless bigoted opinion was supported in this thread? This is the debate forum after all.

@SlimShady:

I can't really be bothered to spend much time on it, but I am honestly curious. Could you back up that statement? I've looked at a few different sites that have suggested a few different dates, but not September-October.
 
E

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
mattj said:
Would you mind showing all of us exactly where your baseless bigoted opinion was supported in this thread? This is the debate forum after all.

@SlimShady:

I can't really be bothered to spend much time on it, but I am honestly curious. Could you back up that statement? I've looked at a few different sites that have suggested a few different dates, but not September-October.
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I found this about Jesus being born March 1st 7 bc. This time a group of planets formed the STAR that the wise men followed.
 
E

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Whoops sorry I lost the site. Forget it :)
 
T

TheFightingPikachu

Smashing!
Megaton666 said:
You mean the same way everyone else with the same opinion have? No, they already did it.
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If you think that the previously-mentioned arguments prove that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, then you didn't read them very carefully. I'd suggest you go back and do that.

Malanu said:
If however you mean the 'non religious gift giving holiday' the masses celebrate on December 25th, then sure they can... if they wish to. Santa doesn't mind and is actually non Denominational.
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I like this! In fact, since I'm a non-denominational Christian, I like it a whole lot!


ebilly99 said:
I found this about Jesus being born March 1st 7 bc. This time a group of planets formed the STAR that the wise men followed.
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I seem to recall hearing that Galileo suggested that the mention of a star in the birth/infancy narratives could match a planetary alignment in late December of around 6 B.C. You may want to show a source.
 
F

Fluorosauro

Member
Christmas is very far removed from any religious roots it may have once had. Anyway, Christmas was never really a Christian holiday - it was taken from the Pagan holiday of Saturnalia and re purposed into a Christian holiday to attract more followers and weaken Saturnalia. Besides, Christ wasn't even born anytime near December.

I'm atheist to the max and I still celebrate Christmas. It's my favorite holiday. The atmosphere is beautiful, and it brings so many people happiness. I don't see how it's solely a religious experience at all.
 
M

mattj

.
I realize that not everyone has the time or desire to read every post in this thread,but it will never cease to amaze me how often that baseless fabrication is repeated. Christians stole nothing from Saturnalia. In fact, as has already been discussed, there's evidence that the choice of December 25th to be Christ's birthday may have preceded Saturnalia.
 
F

Fluorosauro

Member
mattj said:
I realize that not everyone has the time or desire to read every post in this thread,but it will never cease to amaze me how often that baseless fabrication is repeated. Christians stole nothing from Saturnalia. In fact, as has already been discussed, there's evidence that the choice of December 25th to be Christ's birthday may have preceded Saturnalia.
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Where's this evidence?
 
M

mattj

.
TFP explains it, but really the conversation takes place two pages back. After that its just quibbling over minutia. Regardless of the nonsense you may have read on the internet or seen on TV, Christians most definitely did not overtake some pagan holiday.
 
F

Fluorosauro

Member
mattj said:
TFP explains it, but really the conversation takes place two pages back. After that its just quibbling over minutia. Regardless of the nonsense you may have read on the internet or seen on TV, Christians most definitely did not overtake some pagan holiday.
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Oh well. I still don't think Christmas as it's practiced right now is particularly Christian though. There's a lot in it for everyone.
 
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