Minimum Wage: Who needs a comfortable life anyway?

[John Madden]

Working one as I speak and I have seen frayed pants, holes in pants, and old shirts being worn

well then your job's an outlier, because from my experience low-income jobs have cared an inordinate amount about how their employees looked

Care to provide evidence of a significant difference?

frozen dinners are kind of a bad metric if only because it's really difficult to find pricing information for anything other than wal-mart/target (neither of which are near where i've lived in columbus, for instance)

glancing at my local kroger's ad, i'm seeing frozen dinners for $5 or higher, generally of the "not 100% nutritional garbage" variety

glancing at overall grocery cost differences i'm looking at a 15% premium for the city of columbus over dallas, in a city that's actually cheaper to live in overall.

and i really don't think i need to mention that columbus is among the cheapest US cities to live in outside of the dakotas, so if that's a problem here...

 

[BigLutz]

well then your job's an outlier, because from my experience low-income jobs have cared an inordinate amount about how their employees looked

Not when your employees are wearing vests or some other type of uniform over their clothes.

frozen dinners are kind of a bad metric if only because it's really difficult to find pricing information for anything other than wal-mart/target (neither of which are near where i've lived in columbus, for instance)

glancing at my local kroger's ad, i'm seeing frozen dinners for $5 or higher, generally of the "not 100% nutritional garbage" variety

glancing at overall grocery cost differences i'm looking at a 15% premium for the city of columbus over dallas, in a city that's actually cheaper to live in overall.

and i really don't think i need to mention that columbus is among the cheapest US cities to live in outside of the dakotas, so if that's a problem here...

Lets do a one to one comparison shall we?

Stoffers right now at Kroger is 2.00 with a card or 5 for 10 dollars according to the weekly ad for Dallas, Texas
http://krogersouthwest.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-689/006891412/Weekly/1

Stoffers right now at Kroger is 1.88 per entree according to their weekly ad for Columbus, Ohio
http://krogercolumbus.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-569/00569192/Weekly/2

Result? Both are at or below the 2.00 - 2.50 I said that frozen dinners were maintained at, infact Columbus, Ohio was cheaper

Kroger Pop Corn Chicken right now at Kroger is $4.79 per bag with the card according to their weekly ad for Dallas, Texas
http://krogersouthwest.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-689/006891412/Weekly/1/4

Kroger Pop Corn Chicken right now at Kroger is $4.99 per bag with the card according to their weekly ad for Columbus, Ohio
http://krogercolumbus.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-569/00569192/Weekly/2/4

Result? Dallas is cheaper by four cents, but a bag of Popcorn Chicken that can last for multiple days is still at or below 5 dollars

Freschetta Pizza right now at Kroger is $3.99 per Pizaa with the card according to their weekly ad for Dallas, Texas
http://krogersouthwest.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-689/006891412/Weekly/1/4

Freschetta Pizza right now at Kroger is $3.99 per Pizaa with the card according to their weekly ad for Columbus, Ohio
http://krogercolumbus.mywebgrocer.com/Circular/KROGER-569/00569192/Weekly/2/4

Result? No price difference, a Pizza can feed a single person for multiple days, especially if they are used only for dinners

Conclusion: There is no discernible price difference between the prices for a frozen dinner in Columbus, Ohio and a frozen dinner in Dallas, Texas

 

[Baba Yaga]

Didn't say they weren't "working hard enough". That's not my argument.
Poor money management is the reason why many are in the red financially. When you can find an example of someone that has cut all luxury costs (brand new car, eating out every other night, brand new smart phone the minute it comes out, cheaper clothing, etc etc) and is still financially in the red, please do show it.

Sigh.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/15/stories-from-thewaronpoverty.html

http://www.worldhunger.org/us_hunger_pictures.htm

http://halfinten.org/ouramericanstory/

You can find an entire treasure trove worth of stories about Americans struggling with poverty, where there is no discernible evidence that they were being financially reckless or irresponsible. It's simply a matter of opening up your eyes. But those are just stories, right? You know how we can't trust pesky anecdotal evidence. After all, they could just be liars that want to leech off the government, playing the victim card. You look like the kind of guy that needs some statistics! Cold, hard, numbers.

Over 16 million children are going hungry in the U.S.?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21636723

38% of American live from paycheck to paycheck?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-live-paycheck-to-paycheck/

Roughly 46.5 million Americans live in poverty? Gosh. That's a whole lot of people that just aren't managing their money right.

http://www.thenation.com/article/176242/americas-shameful-poverty-stats

 

[The Admiral]

Not when your employees are wearing vests or some other type of uniform over their clothes.

I think that still counts, though, to be honest with you.

 

[BigLutz]

I think that still counts, though, to be honest with you.

Vests tend to be provided by employers, infact alot of things are freely provided by employers as extras.

 

[Pesky Persian]

Vests tend to be provided by employers, infact alot of things are freely provided by employers as extras.

Not really getting involved in this debate because I don't have the time, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think this is the case as often as you think it is. If this is your experience, you must have had some seriously kind employers because every min. wage job I've worked, expenses for uniform components that were provided by the company (vests, aprons, hats, etc.) were all taken out of the employee's first paycheck.

 

[BigLutz]

Not really getting involved in this debate because I don't have the time, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think this is the case as often as you think it is. If this is your experience, you must have had some seriously kind employers because every min. wage job I've worked, expenses for uniform components that were provided by the company (vests, aprons, hats, etc.) were all taken out of the employee's first paycheck.

Fair enough I do remember now that my first job at Six flags, a decade ago required that.

 

[John Madden]

Conclusion: There is no discernible price difference between the prices for a frozen dinner in Columbus, Ohio and a frozen dinner in Dallas, Texas

there is, however, a discernible price difference for groceries overall between the two cities

like i'm not sure what this fixation on frozen dinners is supposed to indicate - families can live forever buying them and only them? we don't have to raise the minimum wage because frozen dinners?

 

[BigLutz]

there is, however, a discernible price difference for groceries overall between the two cities

It seems mainly it is around fresh fruit and veggies, which is not a requirement, seeing how Applesauce and other replacements for fresh fruits and veggies are available and do not expire as fast.

like i'm not sure what this fixation on frozen dinners is supposed to indicate - families can live forever buying them and only them? we don't have to raise the minimum wage because frozen dinners?

The original discussion point was about how much food would cost for a person living on minimum wage, Blazekickblaziken argued that the cost would be around 100 dollars a week, I countered that the cost would be much lower based on frozen dinners and other cheap foods available.

 

[John Madden]

The original discussion point was about how much food would cost for a person living on minimum wage, Blazekickblaziken argued that the cost would be around 100 dollars a week, I countered that the cost would be much lower based on frozen dinners and other cheap foods available.

let's presume that, like many other people working minimum-wage jobs, this hypothetical person is college-educated and decides to take personal responsibility for their own nutrition.

they would very probably not decide to buy frozen dinners and other cheap foods based on the fact that they're nutritionally garbage - particularly at that price level - in which case BKB's estimate is closer to the real cost.

(i personally made it through college with a $150 food budget per month, but i'm a ludicrous outlier on the low end because my shopping is 100% based around coupons and Sick Deals)

 

[BigLutz]

let's presume that, like many other people working minimum-wage jobs, this hypothetical person is college-educated and decides to take personal responsibility for their own nutrition.

they would very probably not decide to buy frozen dinners and other cheap foods based on the fact that they're nutritionally garbage - particularly at that price level - in which case BKB's estimate is closer to the real cost.

(i personally made it through college with a $150 food budget per month, but i'm a ludicrous outlier on the low end because my shopping is 100% based around coupons and Sick Deals)

I never said it had to be best of the food pyramid nutritious, merely that it was enough for someone to live on while at that point in life.

 

[The Admiral]

Vests tend to be provided by employers, infact alot of things are freely provided by employers as extras.

Discounting testimony to the contrary on this matter, I don't think that's terribly relevant that the employer provides you with a uniform, in this case. After all, they still mean for you to be presentable, according to their definition of presentable. The difference is, they provide you with their uniform. Then again, many employers who provide you with a uniform have a rather specific uniform, so they would have to in some way give you access to it, right?

Anyway, I think I may be sort of losing track of whether or not we're talking about the same matter or not.

 

[The Federation]

If we want to talk technicalities, humans can more or less sustain life on beans and rice. That doesn't mean such a diet would be preferred or even healthy; much like eating fast foods or TV dinners, just because you can live off of them, doesn't mean you should. Increasing minimum wage allows for, at the very least, diets that aren't entirely garbage.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

I feel like if your argument is: You can live off minimum wage, jus eat frozen dinners all day every day!

You're missing the entire point of the argument.

 

[BigLutz]

I feel like if your argument is: You can live off minimum wage, jus eat frozen dinners all day every day!

You're missing the entire point of the argument.

And you think a $3.00 raise will change that? It would still be far more economical for the person to buy 4 frozen dinners and get 4 nights of food out of it than spend 10 dollars on 2.2 pounds of Ground Beef followed by another 4 to 7 dollars to prepare the rest of the meal to get the same amount of food over 4 nights. Especially if they wish to use the rest of their money on an entertainment budget.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

1) a $3 raise is nearly a 50% raise which would translate to about a $400 a month (assuming 40 hours a week) after taxes.
2) Are you still on the whole food budget thing, especially considering that $500 a month for an apt that includes utilities is a very conservative estimate in someparts of the country, and that $80 a month on gas is assuming you leave near your work, if you have a long commute that could easily double. I believe that what you're doing is called "pettifogging".
3) Dear poor people, you don't deserve an entertainment budget. No matter how hard you work, no matter how modest it is. The only acceptable entertainment budget for the poor is $0. (Which is kind of a moot point since minimum wage employees don't make enough to have an entertainment butdge OR save)

 

[BigLutz]

1) a $3 raise is nearly a 50% raise which would translate to about a $400 a month (assuming 40 hours a week) after taxes.

And how many people would be losing their jobs to make that?

2) Are you still on the whole food budget thing, especially considering that $500 a month for an apt that includes utilities is a very conservative estimate in someparts of the country, and that $80 a month on gas is assuming you leave near your work, if you have a long commute that could easily double. I believe that what you're doing is called "pettifogging".

You realize that a car is rather unreasonable on that budget as you are dismissing insurance

3) Dear poor people, you don't deserve an entertainment budget. No matter how hard you work, no matter how modest it is. The only acceptable entertainment budget for the poor is $0. (Which is kind of a moot point since minimum wage employees don't make enough to have an entertainment butdge OR save)

It's called being an adult and prioritizing what is important so that they do not end up in overwhelming debt when they do get better jobs

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html

1) Diferent studies say different things because minimum wage is so politicized. But accordng to this article, minimum wage hikes have negligible to no effects on employment.

It is argued that the majority of minimum wage employees are 20 year old second or third wage earners in non-poor families. Although to me that description seems suspiciously similar to that of college graduates who moved back home with their parents because the only jobs there are, are the minimum wage kind and they can't afford to move out.

2) You're right, I forgot to budget in car insurance, but car insurance works a little bit differently here. However, that is NOT a point in your favor, so I'm not entirely sure what the point of bringing that up was.

3) It's called a big fat middle finger to poor people. Oh, your job barely pays your bills? And there are no better jobs to get? Well, sucks to be you.

 

[BigLutz]

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html

1) Diferent studies say different things because minimum wage is so politicized. But accordng to this article, minimum wage hikes have negligible to no effects on employment.

It is argued that the majority of minimum wage employees are 20 year old second or third wage earners in non-poor families. Although to me that description seems suspiciously similar to that of college graduates who moved back home with their parents because the only jobs there are, are the minimum wage kind and they can't afford to move out.

The CBO the one agency largely above politicization places the number at 500,000 lost by just 2016


http://hotair.com/archives/2014/02/...-an-hour-could-eliminate-500000-jobs-by-2016/

2) You're right, I forgot to budget in car insurance, but car insurance works a little bit differently here. However, that is NOT a point in your favor, so I'm not entirely sure what the point of bringing that up was.

Actually it says those with minimum wage would more than likely rely on public transit or walking this defeating the gas cost all together

3) It's called a big fat middle finger to poor people. Oh, your job barely pays your bills? And there are no better jobs to get? Well, sucks to be you.

Yeah that is called life I am sure a lot of people would like to go to Disney world each year but you have to live within your budget for the time being

 

[ellie]

a car is pretty much a necessity to get a job in most parts of the country, unless you live in a major metropolitan area (which costs a lot more to rent a room in). most people do not live in places that have plentiful jobs within walking distance, and public transportation is terrible in the majority of the country, if it even exists at all. given a choice between two applicants that are equal except one has a car and one doesnt, the employer will almost always pick the one with the car, so that is a huge point against you for getting jobs. and even if you are lucky enough to get a job, you won't get promoted because they can't rely on you to come in and help with things and you may even get fired if your ride situation is unstable enough that you miss work. that exact thing pretty much happened with one of my coworkers who didnt have a car; he almost got fired for missing work too much and has since fixed that part, but he expressed interest in a full time position and my boss flat out said he wouldnt even be considered until he could get a more stable ride situation.

so that's yet another expense on bkb's hypothetical budget that is already stretched extremely thin.




as for your comments about life sucks and whatever, you do realize our point is that it's pretty much impossible to EVER climb out of that hole if you are stuck on minimum wage. it's not "for the time being," it's for their entire life unless something changes and makes it possible for them to get out.