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Mohn and Lillie: A Reunion on the Tundra! (1200)

RLC

Well-Known Member
No other character return was potentially planned to appear with such a long time like Lillie was (in part because SM was the last series and they already knew she could appear, so this plot was left open). This means they have a longer time to plan how this episode was supposed to be.

Additionally, Tomiyasu is probably more famirialized with this kind of episode. There is a reason why Aya Matsui was part of the staff of this episode as well. And yes, Aya Matsui did it again, similar to SM108.

I’m not sure if I typed this in or not but…we don’t know how it effects Journey’s plot until next week. Technically one might say that this episode might serve as an incentive on why Chloe and Goh come with Ash to Alola since they just met Lillie.

Chloe’s Eevee is technically completing it’s chart by meeting it’s own species with Lana. I don’t think we can accurately judge what essentially seems like a two parter as “favoritism” because we don’t know how this connects to the main story or if Chloe, Ash and Goh actually being there influenced something about them in later episodes
I don't disagree with any of this. I simply just don't think people were turning a blind eye to the XY eps like what was being alluded to. It would have been called out if it had the same problems as this ep. Still easily a 10/10 ep I just wanted to get that point across.
 

Sham

Ice so cold it burns
Additionally, Tomiyasu is probably more famirialized with this kind of episode. There is a reason why Aya Matsui was part of the staff of this episode as well. And yes, Aya Matsui did it again, similar to SM108.
I also don’t think that getting a writer who was a Lillie fan or wrote her most important episodes is favoritism. Tomioka wrote a good portion of Iris’ episodes and was involved in her return. This isn’t a jab at the other poster but other people keep using this as a way of saying Lillie is “favored”. Aya wrote the episodes revolving around the AF family.
 
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Akkipeddi

YAAAHOOO
While it's true we all wish this kind of episode to be the norm instead of an exception, it's weird to me how some people seem to be complaining about this episode being too good. Like it's not important enough to deserve this level of care and animation.

This is just as important as any of Goh's Project Mew and Ash's PWC episodes. It's not filler just because it's not related to one of the only two plot points JN has. It ties to a previous series plot point, a previous MC's goal, it closes an entire storyline.

I get the feeling some complain about them choosing to spend resources to make this episode better than average just because "they didn't spend them where I wanted them to". Well, I'm sure their resources are limited, so they can't please everyone. This episode's plot has been in the making since SM ended, whereas the other character returns were most likely done with much shorter timeframes. It's only natural an episode like this would get a bit more attention.

I agree animation for Ash's battles has been underwhelming, with a few exceptions. But, if anything, this episode looking as good as it did and having above average writing gave me hope that they can deliver higher quality episodes for Journey's climax, including better animation for Ash's final battles. I'm not naive enough to expect it to change drastically, but after this episode I'd be surprised if the quality didn't match this episode's for this series climax moments.

I feel that's better than being bitter that it didn't happen before, in whatever episode your favorite character was in.
I have no issues with this episode being the best looking JN episode. What I do have an issue with is that it basically took them more than 3/4 into JN to actually do it. I know resources don't make it feasible to expect good animation week in week out (it's ridiculous I know) but in 111 episodes so far, how is it that just one episode stands out? There have been bits and pieces of okay-ish stuff like the Volkner battle but I'm sure it's universally agreed that JN is extremely subpar. It's good that you're feeling optimistic for M8 after seeing this episode, but after seeing how battles have been handled in this series, I just don't expect much from M8 (maybe marginally better but nothing great).
 

SatoSereFan224888

Well-Known Member
Honestly this episode would have been better off without Ash, Goh, & Chloe. It should have only featured Lillie trying to find Mohn along with Gladion and Lusamine. Again, it’s not Ash’s job to keep everybody whole.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I have no issues with this episode being the best looking JN episode. What I do have an issue with is that it basically took them more than 3/4 into JN to actually do it. I know resources don't make it feasible to expect good animation week in week out (it's ridiculous I know) but in 111 episodes so far, how is it that just one episode stands out? There have been bits and pieces of okay-ish stuff like the Volkner battle but I'm sure it's universally agreed that JN is extremely subpar. It's good that you're feeling optimistic for M8 after seeing this episode, but after seeing how battles have been handled in this series, I just don't expect much from M8 (maybe marginally better but nothing great).
Well, how many Journeys episodes are conclusions of a main character's story and goal? Let me guess...zero?

Episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan should be better animated, sure, but they are not different to your old 7th and 8th Gym Battle episodes. So where is the "special" part of those episodes? Ash already beated Iris and she is even above those two characters, so using the "they are powerful!" characters is not good enough to make those episodes special in comparison to other battles.

Do you want an actual special battling episode? Create a proper history or rivalry like they made with characters like Paul or Kukui.
 

Akkipeddi

YAAAHOOO
Well, how many Journeys episodes are conclusions of a main character's story and goal? Let me guess...zero?

Episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan should be better animated, sure, but they are not different to your old 7th and 8th Gym Battle episodes. So where is the "special" part of those episodes? Ash already beated Iris and she is even above those two characters, so using the "they are powerful!" characters is not good enough to make those episodes special in comparison to other battles.

Do you want an actual special battling episode? Create a proper history or rivalry like they made with characters like Paul or Kukui.
Lol Kukui, that exhibition match that literally had no stakes. I won't deny it had great animation and was satisfying but it really wasn't a do or die match.

And conclusions of character stories.....this is the freaking Pokémon anime, nobody's story gets concluded here. Hasn't stopped past series from still having good looking episodes cause if we go by your definition that an episode can only look good cause its the conclusion to a character.....then yeah no Pokémon episode should've ever looked good.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Lol Kukui, that exhibition match that literally had no stakes. I won't deny it had great animation and was satisfying but it really wasn't a do or die match.

And conclusions of character stories.....this is the freaking Pokémon anime, nobody's story gets concluded here. Hasn't stopped past series from still having good looking episodes cause if we go by your definition that an episode can only look good cause its the conclusion to a character.....then yeah no Pokémon episode should've ever looked good.
SM was not a series with a "do or die" theme like DP was with Ash vs Paul, so the battle represents well how SM was.
This was the battle where Ash had to fight the strongest trainer in the region (parallelism to the SM games) who is also his father figure of the series, and the battle where Kukui was finally fullfilling its dream, as mentioned by Burnet in the middle of the battle during the Pikachu vs Empoleon segment.

This battle was so special that the writers decided to make it a 4-episodes battle. I can see this not being better than Ash vs Paul SL, but it is certainly its closest competition.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yes let's use one character to prove me wrong over the countless other characters who are in limbo.
So now the discussion is about why of all people, Lillie is the one concluding its story instead of X or Y characters? Because this was potentially something planned since SM's third year knowing that they had an opportunity at finishing this story in the future, something that clearly was not possible with any other previous main character.
 

Evstike

We lost...
Well, how many Journeys episodes are conclusions of a main character's story and goal? Let me guess...zero?
Dawn's returned how many times and nothing's changed sooooo I think it's safe to say there's nothing left for her /s
Episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan should be better animated, sure, but they are not different to your old 7th and 8th Gym Battle episodes. So where is the "special" part of those episodes? Ash already beated Iris and she is even above those two characters, so using the "they are powerful!" characters is not good enough to make those episodes special in comparison to other battles.
To be fair, Drasna was his first victory against an E4 member and Ash vs Raihan was his entry into the M8, with his opponent being "Leon's rival". The Raihan battle was a promotion match and was treated as more than just a regular PWC match in-universe.
Do you want an actual special battling episode? Create a proper history or rivalry like they made with characters like Paul or Kukui.
They had something going with Raihan questioning Ash's motivation for battling Leon... only for the shocking revelation that not only does he want to battle Leon, he wants to beat him too, which would have hit harder if we didn't already establish this after he first battled Leon. From there we could have had a nice back-and-forth discussion between Ash and Raihan throughout the fight as rivals and maybe even proving which one of them deserves to move on but instead they dropped the ball and we got umm Raihan standing still for 30 seconds while Lucario charges his Aura Bomb.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
They had something going with Raihan questioning Ash's motivation for battling Leon... only for the shocking revelation that not only does he want to battle Leon, he wants to beat him too, which would have hit harder if we didn't already establish this after he first battled Leon. From there we could have had a nice back-and-forth discussionbetween Ash and Raihan throughout the fight as rivals and maybe even proving which one of them deserves to move on but instead they dropped the ball and we got umm Raihan standing still for 30 seconds while Lucario charges his Aura Bomb.
I think this was part of the problem. Raihan was Leon's, not Ash's, and the writers really never tried to elaborate an story about Raihan as Ash's indirect rival or giving to Raihan more backstory other than what we got in the Greninja's episode. This reminds me a bit of Paul vs Barry, where both were Ash's rivals but at least for me the battle feels underwhelming, because I didn't see a real connection between both characters even when Barry was Paul's fanboy.

Additionally, I get that those battles deserved better animation but imo we have to wait until M8 is over before fully complaining about this episode getting better animation than those battles.
This is not the first part were important battle get relatively poor animation in order to have better animation is the next battle. For example, SM138 and SM139 didn't have the best animation (that Melmetal animation was way too long and overused and a lot of S T O N E E D G Y) and those were literally the final of the Alola League, and then the next episode had like 10 minutes of reused Z-move animation. But this was completely worth because Ash vs Kukui and especially its last episode was one of the better animated episodes in the story of the Pokémon Anime.
 

masdog

What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
I have no issues with this episode being the best looking JN episode. What I do have an issue with is that it basically took them more than 3/4 into JN to actually do it. I know resources don't make it feasible to expect good animation week in week out (it's ridiculous I know) but in 111 episodes so far, how is it that just one episode stands out? There have been bits and pieces of okay-ish stuff like the Volkner battle but I'm sure it's universally agreed that JN is extremely subpar. It's good that you're feeling optimistic for M8 after seeing this episode, but after seeing how battles have been handled in this series, I just don't expect much from M8 (maybe marginally better but nothing great).
I understand where you're coming from. But I think it's also important to remember that JN is happening in a weird time where the entire world is being disrupted. There is an animator shortage. We're just coming out of a global pandemic (or are still in the middle of depending on who you talk to) that shut everything down for months and forced everyone into a remote work or work-from-home model (no...its not as simple as the animators just taking their computer home either).

Pokemon continuing to put out an episode on a weekly basis is pretty impressive in the first place. I'm assuming that quality is being sacrificed here to keep the production on schedule.

It was probably easier to use higher quality animation in JN111 because there were no battles, so they could focus their budget on the other scenes.
Yes let's use one character to prove me wrong over the countless other characters who are in limbo.
Limbo is kind of a strong word to use here. While they haven't completed their goals, JN has shown a number of other character making significant progress on or nearly completing their goals, including:
  • Brock almost completing his studies to become a Pokemon Doctor
  • Serena becoming someone who can give others strength and becoming "more like Ash," which is one of the interpretation of her parting words at the end of XY (and the interpretation that the dub went with when she said "you're the kind of person I want to be")
  • Iris traveling the world to train and learn from other dragon-type trainers, which enabled her to become the Unova Champion (which isn't her goal of becoming a Dragon Master, but its progress towards it)
  • Sophocles working on projects at Mossdeep Space Center
Dawn is kind of the odd one out here since she is still traveling and doing contests with no apparent updates on her progress towards being a top coordinator. We also haven't seen Misty or Cilan, so we don't know how their goals are coming. And we probably won't see May again, but JN105 implied that she became a famous Coordinator in Hoenn.

I think this was part of the problem. Raihan was Leon's, not Ash's, and the writers really never tried to elaborate Raihan as Ash's indirect rival. This reminds me a bit of Paul vs Barry, where both were Ash's rivals but at least for me the battle feels underwhelming, because I didn't see a real connection betwee both characters even when Barry was Paul's fanboy.
I think part of the issue with Ash and Raihan is that Raihan just ignored Ash in the few times they interacted. Or at least that's how I recall it. He didn't see Ash as a threat or an up-and-comer that could challenge him at some point. And this makes the Ash/Raihan battle seem underwhelming from an emotional level.
 

Evstike

We lost...
I think this was part of the problem. Raihan was Leon's, not Ash's, and the writers really never tried to elaborate an story about Raihan as Ash's indirect rival or giving to Raihan more backstory other than what we got in the Greninja's episode.
Yeah, this is exactly it. There wasn't much tension between the two because they never got the chance to properly interact. Raihan only knew Ash as the excitable kid and cake baker.

I think I explained it poorly but what I was trying to get at is that Ash and Raihan could both discuss their views on Leon and relationships with him, trying to convince each other that they should be the one to take him on. An indirect rivalry based on their common goal would create a compelling narrative for the battle even if it was only made up on the spot.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yeah, this is exactly it. There wasn't much tension between the two because they never got the chance to properly interact. Raihan only knew Ash as the excitable kid and cake baker.

I think I explained it poorly but what I was trying to get at is that Ash and Raihan could both discuss their views on Leon and relationships with him, trying to convince each other that they should be the one to take him on. An indirect rivalry based on their common goal would create a compelling narrative for the battle even if it was only made up on the spot.
Yes, in order to make this battle better in an emotional level they needed an episode dedicated to them. Something similar to JN100 where Ash and Leon interacted and we were able to see the similarities between both, but instead of looking at that, focusing on the reasons about why both Ash and Raihan wants to defeat Raihan and making them to put all their efforts at winning their last chance to have an opportunity to defeat Leon in the Master Class.

Also lol, talking about Leon and he decides to appear out of nowhere
Screenshot_20220521_235545_com.dena.a12026418.jpg
 

Akkipeddi

YAAAHOOO
I understand where you're coming from. But I think it's also important to remember that JN is happening in a weird time where the entire world is being disrupted. There is an animator shortage. We're just coming out of a global pandemic (or are still in the middle of depending on who you talk to) that shut everything down for months and forced everyone into a remote work or work-from-home model (no...its not as simple as the animators just taking their computer home either).

Pokemon continuing to put out an episode on a weekly basis is pretty impressive in the first place. I'm assuming that quality is being sacrificed here to keep the production on schedule.

It was probably easier to use higher quality animation in JN111 because there were no battles, so they could focus their budget on the other scenes.
I'm not taking away the fact that it's been difficult for animators but the first few episodes of JN even before the pandemic were not great so that was already a sign that production issues were present. Lance vs Leon happened sometime in January 2020 and that was not really some of Iwane's best either. And the closest example to a weekly running anime would be One Piece where episodes 1015 and 1017 were incredible. And OP has been mocked in the past for substandard stuff too (Dressrosa....) but really picked up its animation for Wano. Overall JN's issues seem internal and just a lack of good staff on top of the obviously unfortunate circumstances of the pandemic.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I'm not taking away the fact that it's been difficult for animators but the first few episodes of JN even before the pandemic were not great so that was already a sign that production issues were present. Lance vs Leon happened sometime in January 2020 and that was not really some of Iwane's best either. And the closest example to a weekly running anime would be One Piece where episodes 1015 and 1017 were incredible. And OP has been mocked in the past for substandard stuff too (Dressrosa....) but really picked up its animation for Wano. Overall JN's issues seem internal and just a lack of good staff on top of the obviously unfortunate circumstances of the pandemic.
Fair, but the only thing that Pokémon and One Piece have in common is to be aired on a weekly basis. Pokémon is a kodomo that takes some elements of the games and try to adapt that (Pokémon is a very big franchise but the anime is still a separate product) and One Piece is a shonen based on the most selling manga of all time.
Also prepandemic we still had some good segments. Ash vs Visquez is probably to this date the best animated battle of Journeys.
 

Akkipeddi

YAAAHOOO
Fair, but the only thing that Pokémon and One Piece have in common is to be aired on a weekly basis. Pokémon is a kodomo that takes some elements of the games and try to adapt that (Pokémon is a very big franchise but the anime is still a separate product) and One Piece is a shonen based on the most selling manga of all time.
Also prepandemic we still had some good segments. Ash vs Visquez is probably to this date the best animated battle of Journeys.
How the heck does kodomo vs shounen matter here? I wasn't even making that comparison. I was only talking about the animation of two weekly running series. And if you're trying to imply that being a kodomo anime the Pokemon anime should have inferior animation, just know that XY and Dressrosa were airing at the same time and XY looked far better than Dressrosa.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
How the heck does kodomo vs shounen matter here? I wasn't even making that comparison. I was only talking about the animation of two weekly running series. And if you're trying to imply that being a kodomo anime the Pokemon anime should have inferior animation, just know that XY and Dressrosa were airing at the same time and XY looked far better than Dressrosa.
It matters because the production of a kodomo anime that only takes some elements of the games (and Journeys not even that most of the time) vs a shounen anime that is mostly based on an ongoing manga are different.
 
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