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Mohn and Lillie: A Reunion on the Tundra! (1200)

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
The only thing that would be different is that the story is already written (when kot doing extra stuff) and that the manga can serve as a first draft of the storyboard, because it’s not like manga and animation are 1:1 either. Pokemon for the most part takes from the games and doesn’t start from scratch either. Characters, pokemon, location, are taken from the games. It’s story is nothing special and pretty bare bones and not anything special, nobody expects otherwise and doesn’t really matter when we’re talking about animation here .But then for one piece that’s done by oda alone on a weekly basis (well mostly). I would think a team of writers and story boarder can at least match one person’s work as a first draft for the storyboard when not doing something as complex.

That said, even implying that one piece has the quality it has now is just because oda provides a base to work from feels like a disservice to how much the anime team has lift the source material to even greater heights. Something like one piece 1015 is so highly praised because the team put the effort in making something much more low key and raised it up to an extraordinary degree by adding stuff that makes it resonate much more. This is all on top of the stellar animation that was bonkers on a technical level, and all would’ve had to be made from scratch like any other animation on any other show.

Of course the OP team are doing all that under the same extrernal condition as everyone else. So i don’t think there’s any excuse why pokemon can’t be compared with one piece when they’re made under the same schedule.
It matters because it is One Piece, an anime based on the most selling manga of all time with more viewers than the Pokémon anime, and because the Pokémon Anime has one of the lowest-paid animators, or at least that was said at the start of 2020.

We are not even talking yet about how different both animes are not only by genre, but also in their quality when it comes to episodes and battles, when One Piece wins by a landslide, for nobody's surprise.
 
It matters because it is One Piece, an anime based on the most selling manga of all time with more viewers than the Pokémon anime, and because the Pokémon Anime has one of the lowest-paid animators, or at least that was said at the start of 2020.

We are not even talking yet about how different both animes are not only by genre, but also in their quality when it comes to episodes and battles, when One Piece wins by a landslide, for nobody's surprise.
You're the only one bringing up the narrative aspect of One Piece which shouldn't even be brought up cause it'll be a hilarious slaughter in favor of One Piece. The discussion only started to point out that both are weekly running series and that One Piece has been dishing out some great looking episodes for Wano (when you take into account Toei has been considered a joke in the past especially for Dressrosa).

And OP being the best selling manga has nothing to do with Toei's ability. It's the same argument people use over why is Gamefreak considered such a small studio even if TPC owns the biggest media franchise in the world.

Besides it's common these days for a successful anime adaptation to boost the manga instead. Spy x Family, My Dress up Darling got great anime adaptations which boosted their manga sales immensely and I'm sure even you must be aware of the juggernaut known as Demon Slayer which got its insane popularity boost cause of the Ufotable's amazing anime adaptation.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
You're the only one bringing up the narrative aspect of One Piece which shouldn't even be brought up cause it'll be a hilarious slaughter in favor of One Piece. The discussion only started to point out that both are weekly running series and that One Piece has been dishing out some great looking episodes for Wano (when you take into account Toei has been considered a joke in the past especially for Dressrosa).

And OP being the best selling manga has nothing to do with Toei's ability. It's the same argument people use over why is Gamefreak considered such a small studio even if TPC owns the biggest media franchise in the world.
Well maybe because the complains were about this episode being way too good, and this episode was way too good not just in animation.

Just good animation (which is in what you are focusing) is not enough to make an episode to have this level of universally acclaim, so having better animation in episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan would make those episodes better than they were, but both won't be even remotely close to the acclaimed Pokémon battles like Ash vs Paul, Ash vs Kukui or Ash vs Sawyer.

So I am fine with the staff using their budget to make this episode as good as possible, especially because they show that this level of quality is possible for M8 episodes.
 
Well maybe because the complains were about this episode being way too good, and this episode was way too good not just in animation.

Just good animation (which is in what you are focusing) is not enough to make an episode to have this level of universally acclaim, so having better animation in episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan would make those episodes better than they were, but both won't be even remotely close to the acclaimed Pokémon battles like Ash vs Paul, Ash vs Kukui or Ash vs Sawyer.

So I am fine with the staff using their budget to make this episode as good as possible, especially because they show that this level of quality is possible for M8 episodes.
I'm gonna stop you right there cause that's hilarious. People all acknowledge this being JN's best looking episode but let's not get ahead of ourselves by making such claims. The standards of JN have been so low that this episode looks extremely impressive but it's nowhere as good as some of the best XY and even SM episodes.

Your argument is so flawed cause you're basically saying since those battles weren't finale battles, why bother trying. It's like asking why was Ash vs Olympia the best gym battle in XY. Nobody expected peak animation reserved for finale battles but atleast better than the below standard we've been getting.

Going by your logic, anime shouldn't have good animation unless it's for arc finales or some major stuff. OP 1015 was actually about Luffy's dreams beyond a pirate king. Important but not Kaido tier fight but was amazing.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
The standards of JN have been so low that this episode looks extremely impressive but it's nowhere as good as some of the best XY and even SM episodes.
Yeah, I completely disagree with this, and based on the overwhelmingly good reaction of a lot of people around all places, I don't think it is a hot take to say this episode is as good, if not better than the best XY or SM episodes.
Not even with episodes like Memories in the Mist (Mallow's mother) I saw people claiming that the episode may be the best episode in the history of the Pokémon Anime. It's very impressive that this episode was able to do it.

It's like asking why was Ash vs Olympia the best gym battle in XY. Nobody expected peak animation reserved for finale battles but atleast better than the below standard we've been getting.
Except Ash vs Olympia was the final battle of the XY arc of the XY series, the one that give us the introduction to the XYZ arc and to Ash-Greninja, so that was a very important battle that deserved to have such a good animation.

Also it is not an "only final battles deserves good animation". It is an "animation don't save battles". No matter if we got better animation with Ash vs Iris/Drasna/Raihan, those battles will still be underwhelming because the animation was not even the main reason why those battles were not great, is the way how Ash won or how the battles didn't have an emotional part, aka the story.
 
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Episodes like Ash vs Drasna or Ash vs Raihan should be better animated, sure, but they are not different to your old 7th and 8th Gym Battle episodes. So where is the "special" part of those episodes?

Except Ash vs Olympia was the final battle of the XY arc of the XY series, the one that give us the introduction to the XYZ arc and to Ash-Greninja, so that was a very important battle that deserved to have such a good animation.
You're literally contradicting yourself here
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
You're literally contradicting yourself here
Except Olympia was not your standard 7th gym battle (which is also why it was one of the best Gym Battles ever). It was the conclusion of a 92 episodes arc and the episode 0 of XYZ as it serves as the introduction of several parts of its plot, including Ash-Greninja.

I like the "I'm gonna stop you" but then inmediately try to find "contradictions"
 

Evstike

We lost...
Tho tbh that and ep 2 were definitely outliers. Even back then most ones were just ok, not as good on average as XY/SM's animation. I hope we get some insight on what happened to production between SM and JN. Tho SM's also went downhill year 2,but went back up year 3
There were a few other pre-pandemic episodes that stood out like #1 and #9, and #13 had some good cuts but even then the animation took a hit outside of those few moments. Giving all these resources to #9, a hypebait filler, still makes no sense to me.

I think it's only fair to compare Iwane episodes to his own since it's just him working on them and doesn't involve assembling an entire team which is something that would be impacted by the pandemic and scheduling issues.

We also don't know to what extent the pandemic impacted production. The worst looking episodes aired after the break in my opinion were 27-28 which were both shown in the preview at the end of #20, an episode released before the pandemic so their production shouldn't have been affected. Everything else looked virtually the same aside from the lack of top tier animators.
 
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British Soul

Top Hat Regulator
Not an essay time:
I remember back when Sun & Moon were brand new that people pointed out a resemblance between Nihilego and Lillie, therefore the fact that the writers used that as a plot thread is rather interesting tying it with Mohn's character having amnesia, similar to how in USUM, Mohn seemed to have forgotten about his past life when he goes to Aether Paradise in the postgame.
In fairness, before watching the episode I thought if this episode would have Calyrex seeing as it's in the Crown Tundra, instead the episode features an Ultra Beast as the focus, but that in itself isn't out of the ordinary as players can catch the Ultra Beasts during Dynamax Adventures, and it makes more sense to do this given it's a Lillie-focused episode, Calyrex appearing here would be out of place.
Another thing that interested me was the fact that they portrayed the shiny Nihilego (which I liked so it differentiates from the other Nihilego that appeared) differently from others of its species, having it be non-malicious and integrating itself as a part of Mohn's life under the guise of Lillie and going so far as hiding mirrors, Mohn's old clothes to preserve that relationship.
One other thing I will say is that it's rather convenient that Lusamine/Gladion/Lillie had a Beast Ball in their possession. I mean yes, they knew that Mohn disappeared in an Ultra Wormhole way back when, but to use that information to suspect that they may encounter an Ultra Beast whilst on their search, it's just too convenient imo.
 

Evstike

We lost...
Also it is not an "only final battles deserves good animation". It is an "animation don't save battles". No matter if we got better animation with Ash vs Iris/Drasna/Raihan, those battles will still be underwhelming because the animation was not even the main reason why those battles were not great, is the way how Ash won or how the battles didn't have an emotional part, aka the story.
You're seriously underestimating the power of visuals here. Anime is a visual medium so most of the story is told through animation. They wouldn't have been so underwhelming if the visual presentation was better. The conclusion of Ash vs Raihan would have been stronger if Lucario's Aura Bomb finisher had more weight to it or if the overall fight was more dynamic and thrilling. Drasna wouldn't have been so boring if the intensity conveyed by the visuals kept you on the edge of your seat and allowed you to look past the asspulls and comedy that brought it down. Imagine if Ash vs. Kukui looked like Ash vs Drasna. The impact and emotions would be lost by the poor presentation even if the writing was the same. Ash vs Sawyer is still remembered to this day as one of the best battles in the entire anime for it's visuals while the storytelling and personal moments between the characters are rarely talked about.
 

UltimateNinja

~Anya-chan~
When people start comparing the Pokemon animation to One Piece, then there's something wrong.

Like the animation is the only thing Pokemon mostly does right. It's not peak stuff like in other animes, but still good enough. The animation of One Piece otherwise gets significantly worse and worse.

Episode was honestly boring to me since that whole Mohn stuff felt just so added on and out of place. Never cared once for it after the whole Aether stuff ended. For a neutral viewer, it was fine enough, but far of being called one of the best Journey episodes. I mean Journeys is pretty bad but there are definitely better episodes.
 
Like the animation is the only thing Pokemon mostly does right. It's not peak stuff like in other animes, but still good enough. The animation of One Piece otherwise gets significantly worse and worse.
Knock knock this isn't Dressrosa era (unless you genuinely think JN looks better than Wano....)
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
When people start comparing the Pokemon animation to One Piece, then there's something wrong.

Like the animation is the only thing Pokemon mostly does right. It's not peak stuff like in other animes, but still good enough. The animation of One Piece otherwise gets significantly worse and worse.

Wano arc one piece is a whole different beast to old one piece and puts even most seasonal shows to shame tho. There’s no shame in not being as great as wano one piece, but it also mean that being a weekly anime isn’t an excuse for having bad animations.
 
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AARTX

Can Pikachu kill servants?
When people start comparing the Pokemon animation to One Piece, then there's something wrong.

Like the animation is the only thing Pokemon mostly does right. It's not peak stuff like in other animes, but still good enough. The animation of One Piece otherwise gets significantly worse and worse.

Episode was honestly boring to me since that whole Mohn stuff felt just so added on and out of place. Never cared once for it after the whole Aether stuff ended. For a neutral viewer, it was fine enough, but far of being called one of the best Journey episodes. I mean Journeys is pretty bad but there are definitely better episodes.
Wano arc says hi
 

santiagus

Im Prison Santiagus
A fan theory made into a plot?

A good written episode that closes a plot of 3 years ago in a sensical way?

Good long term storytelling?

Dark and emotional at the same time?


Congratulations Journeys you just had a really good episode. Kudos to all off you.


See when you get out of the Goh and cameos shenanigans you can do good?

I hope this is the way of Gen 9 anime.

Congrats.
 
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