Mohn and Lillie: A Reunion on the Tundra! (1200)

[Soniman]

Wano arc one piece is a whole different beast to old one piece and puts even most seasonal shows to shame tho. There’s no shame in not being as great as wano one piece, but it also mean that being a weekly anime isn’t an excuse for having bad animations.

Two years ago comparing it to one piece would’ve been an insult but yeah the Wano arc has been consistently putting out solid to amazing animation which JN has struggled to do its entire run

 

[RafaSceptile]

Pointing out contradictions is literally a valid way of adressing an argument

What is the shape of Italy?

Except is isn't a contradiction because Ash vs Olympia was not your average 7th Gym battle, because it was used as the conclusión of an Arc and the introduction of elements of the Plot of the next one (XYZ).

It is like if I said your standards 5th Gym Battle and then use Ash vs Clemont as "counter argument" when it was clearly not your standard 5th gym battle as this was the conclusión of a MC's Arc

 

[masdog]

Is JN's animation good? Is it bad? Adequate? That all comes down to personal preference. I find it adequate most weeks. There are always things that could be better, and I try not to let it ruin my enjoyment of the show.

Comparing JN to other weekly anime is counterproductive. Every studio has different priorities and constraints, and the shows should be judged on their own merits.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Since you're cherrypicking things to suit your narrative:

The Raihan battle was not your average PWC battle, it was a Promotion Match and the conclusion of the Hyper Class arc as well as an introduction to plot elements regarding the next one (M8 finale), not to mention setting the grand stage for Ash to be one of the Top trainers in the world.

Yes, having better animation would make the battle better, but it won't fix it's main issue, which is the lack of an emotional impact on the viewers for such an important battle. The main problem is not how the battle looks (which is imo not that bad), is how even when they tried to give some backstory to Raihan in the Greninja's episode, they never elaborate a proper history or rivalry between both characters even when both are Leon's rivals (again, this is similar to Paul vs Barry).
Same with Ash vs Iris or Ash vs Drasna, having better animations would make the battles better, but it won't fix their main issues, which was how Ash won those battles.

If people wants to complain about this episode being way better in something than your JN battles, it should be in the story department, because that is when this episode really shines. The good animation was just a welcome addition that reinforced the main strengths of this episode, no the opposite.

 

[RafaSceptile]

It works both ways. Not always do battles need to have emotional stakes behind them, and trying to shoehorn it can be detrimental. Two of the most memorable battles in the entirety of the anime, the semis and finals of the Kalos League, aren't really notably all that emotionally charged or have notable writing, yet are highly regarded for their visual quality and intensity.

Proper visual quality, choreography and presentation would have helped alleviate the issues with the writing, hell, even complement what the writing is going for in the first place without any unnecessary additions/reductions (this is exactly why the Drasna episode failed, it had decent writing that the visual presentation completely botched).

Also, stop strawmaning and making it seem like this episode is a victim and the one under fire. Most people have praised this episode, and only criticized/questioned Tomiyasu's priorities and/or competence at management.

The semis and finals of the Kalos League have this emotional factor as both are conclusions of rivalries. Obviously Ash vs Alain is way too controversial but people still consider it one of the best battles even with the fact that Ash lost.

Compare it to Tierno vs Sawyer, a battle that still looks great, but nobody talks about it because it lacks this emotional factor.

The same happens with XY Gym battles. The battles that are usually talked the most are those than involve some sort of emotional factor, which are basically Korrina, Clemont, Olympia and Wulfric. The other 4 battles are nowhere talked as good.

Also I didn't stop you from anything, so you don't stop me from anything.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Sawyer, a bit yes (but nowhere close to where you're implying). Alain, not really, there's no emotional connection between them in any way.

Probably because it wasn't one of Ash's battles in the first place?

The only one on this that are valid are Clemont, and to a lesser extent, Korrina. The others don't have any deep connection to Ash, most of the emotional factor going for it is on Ash's end, usually with one of his Pokemon (Ash-Frogadier in Olympia's, Ash-Greninja in Wulfric). This is no different than anything else involving Ash and his Pokemon.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Ash's battle against Valerie and Grant are pretty talked about.

That doesn't meant you can strawman blatantly...

Ash vs Alain still has this backstory about Alain and it served as the prelude of the Team Flare arc. So yes, this battle is more than just a visually great battle. Actually it is different because those are two very important parts of the series. It's similar to how people remember Ash vs Volkner because this is finally where Infernape controlled Blaze.

They are nowhere talked as much as those 4 battles, neither rated as high.

Except I'm not. The point of this discussion is that neither Tomiyasu of the staff has any sort of Lillie/SM favoritism, you can go and read the last pages, agree or disagree and explain why, but I already explained my points as well as other people did, and that is unbelievable that some people genuinelly complain about this episode being way too good, like if it doesn't deserve to be this good.

 

[RafaSceptile]

So, just as much as Ash vs. Raihan had. Their connection was based off something external, rather than an internal struggle or connection like Ash had with Paul and Kukui. Also, by your logic, Ash-Lucairo, Ash-Sirfetch'd, Ash-Dracovish etc. for their respective matches are more than enough factors to keep the 'emotional factor'.

Even so, none of the points you brought up are justifications for those episodes having 3rd rate visual quality. If it's not favoritism, it's incompetence and mismanagement. It can't be neither of the two, there's literally no other reasoning or excuse available.

Yes, but there was still opportunities to create an indirect rivalry between both characters. This is what I mean, the main problem with those battles is not that they have poorly animation, is that they don't have any sort of emotional involvement with the user or are heavily important to the plot as, for example, Ash vs Alain was for the Team Flare arc (especially with this "Ash as the moral winner" argument).

People already explained about how this story was most likely left deliberately ofter during SM's third year knowing that Lillie had an opportunity to return with Journey's premise. This means she was the only MC to be planned to return way earlier than any other of the character returns.
And again, this episode is not comparable to any other JN episode because this is the only episode that address the conclusion of a MC's story/arc.

 

[LazySpy]

Except is isn't a contradiction because Ash vs Olympia was not your average 7th Gym battle, because it was used as the conclusión of an Arc and the introduction of elements of the Plot of the next one (XYZ).

It is like if I said your standards 5th Gym Battle and then use Ash vs Clemont as "counter argument" when it was clearly not your standard 5th gym battle as this was the conclusión of a MC's Arc

Cry and piss

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I'm not sure this series does the "emotional factor" right because Ash is extremely static, and any other attempt usually has a very silly explanation as to why the drama happens at all or how the drama was...really never there but was a fake out.

Remember, Alain was an extremely normal lab assistant going on a(n aimless) journey until some lion-maned adult beat him in the woods and utterly manipulated the hell out of him with the least amount of effort. Then his obsession with Ash was mostly justified because Ash was just too interesting during XY.

Whatever beef or tension Ash had with Bea was anti-climatically resolved as soon as they tied, and his little "depression" episode was far more comical than serious that Goh was suddenly given so much competence during it. Afterwards, it was sunshine and rainbows (more so when it turned out Korrina was actually a fan of Bea for getting majorly screwed).

I can't say anything about Raihan's story because it's more barebones than in the games.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I'm not sure this series does the "emotional factor" right because Ash is extremely static, and any other attempt usually has a very silly explanation as to why the drama happens at all or how the drama was...really never there but was a fake out.

Remember, Alain was an extremely normal lab assistant going on a(n aimless) journey until some lion-maned adult beat him in the woods and utterly manipulated the hell out of him with the least effort.

Whatever beef or tension Ash had with Bea was anti-climatically resolved as soon as they tied. Afterwards, it was sunshine and rainbows (more so when it turned out Korrina was actually a fan of Bea for getting majorly screwed).

I can't say anything about Raihan's story because it's more barebones than in the games.

This is exactly the main problem with Journeys, there is little to no connection in most of Ash's battles, and the very few with some sort of emotional connection of development, are controversial battles.

Ash vs Iris has obviously their meeting again and Dragonite learning Draco Meteor, but the way Ash won is very controversial and doesn't help to make this battle memorable.
Ash vs Bea is the only "good" rivalry of the series...and their last battle was not that great either, and imo it was way too early in the series.
Ash vs Raihan where both are Leon's rivals lacked some sort of proper story about Raihan or proper interactions between both characters.

And we can continue. The main problem of those battles was not exactly how visually good or bad they were, is the lack of a proper story that makes those battles to be remembered in comparison to your average visually good battles.

What-could-have been is not an argument, since Ash's relationship with Alain was superficial at best prior to TF, in a similar sense to what his relation to Raihan was during their battle. There was no deep connection there, but the former was still presented in a manner that was visually appealing. THAT was a factor as to why it was so popular, along with the fact that it was Ash's first League final (and the hypebait about him winning). Not because of his connection to Alain.

Again, how does that justify and excuse the bad production and mismanagement for other important episodes? Unless you slipped up and ironically implied that there was a higher priority for this one? Are you saying this episode is far more important (regardless of a setup in the past series) than the episodes pertaining to the current main cast?

First, as other people and I said, this episode was potentially planned since SM's last year knowing Journeys premise, this makes it way different in how much time you have to plan something in comparison to any other character return.
And second, this episode is the conclusion of a Main Character's story and arc. It is not comparable to any other Journeys episode.

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

Fully expected this to disappoint me, but man was it a beautiful episode. Honestly, if we got more episodes like this then I wouldn’t even mind the gaps between PWC battles..

Amazing, bravo, 10/10.

 

[Kazuniya]

First, as other people and I said, this episode was potentially planned since SM's last year knowing Journeys premise, this makes it way different in how much time you have to plan something in comparison to any other character return.
And second, this episode is the conclusion of a Main Character's story and arc. It is not comparable to any other Journeys episode.

Completely true.

I am actually baffled there's people salty and bitter over this episode, acting so juvenile to the point they will make conspiracy theories about favoritism even though their arguments make approximately zero sense.

 

[Kamised]

The animation in the Raihan battle was fine. Obviously the final Gigantamax fight has Raihan's pokemon barely move but all those fights are like that. Animation wise the Bea fight looked really good too and Iwane did some nice shots.

Drasna definitely had the worst animation of them all, but the ep was also written poorly, so I guess it doesn't matter. They took a loss on that one.

 

[Evstike]

The animation in the Raihan battle was fine. Obviously the final Gigantamax fight has Raihan's pokemon barely move but all those fights are like that. Animation wise the Bea fight looked really good too and Iwane did some nice shots.

Drasna definitely had the worst animation of them all, but the ep was also written poorly, so I guess it doesn't matter. They took a loss on that one.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Completely true.

I am actually baffled there's people salty and bitter over this episode, acting so juvenile to the point they will make conspiracy theories about favoritism even though their arguments make approximately zero sense.

Lillie is best girl though, she should be favorited

 

[Sham]

At some random point in time when are people just going to admit “this is favoritism” is just code for this is happening to a character I do not like and thus I’m upset because I feel like they don’t deserve it

It’s no an oddity that some of these people posting here have been active about their dislike of Lillie.

 

[Jibanyan]

At some random point in time when are people just going to admit “this is favoritism” is just code for this is happening to a character I do not like and thus I’m upset because I feel like they don’t deserve it

It’s no an oddity that some of these people posting here have been active about their dislike of Lillie.

It's favoritism lol but it doesn't matter. If this is the only Journeys episode that looks like this then I'm fine with it

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

Is JN's animation good? Is it bad? Adequate? That all comes down to personal preference. I find it adequate most weeks. There are always things that could be better, and I try not to let it ruin my enjoyment of the show.

Comparing JN to other weekly anime is counterproductive. Every studio has different priorities and constraints, and the shows should be judged on their own merits.

It’s not about comparing it with other series, because actually comparing JN to wano piece every week would be depressing as hell. But i also think you can still judge a show by it’s own standard while still acknowledging the kind of standards that exist in the wider scope of shows.

People often use ‘it’s a weekly series and made during covid’ as an excuse to deflect any sort of criticism, when we know for a fact that there are other series out there facing the same hurdles and yet still thriving. It’s a disservice to the herculean effort that the people behind those other series put, if pokemon is treated as some sort of exception.

 

[RafaSceptile]

It’s not about comparing it with other series, because actually comparing JN to wano piece every week would be depressing as hell. But i also think you can still judge a show by it’s own standard while still acknowledging the kind of standards that exist in the wider scope of shows.

People often use ‘it’s a weekly series and made during covid’ as an excuse to deflect any sort of criticism, when we know for a fact that there are other series out there facing the same hurdles and yet still thriving. It’s a disservice to the herculean effort that the people behind those other series put, if pokemon is treated as some sort of exception.

You missed the point where the only thing both series have in common is to be aired on a weekly basis, and that's where the similarities ends. Both series are outside of that so different in so many ways that it is not very productive to compare Pokémon with another anime like One Piece, as masdog said.

 

[Aryash Bajaj]

I'd rather better animation be saved for a Gladion episode rather than some third rate M8 episode with Cynthia.