Morality and Immigration

[Dragoon952]

Immigration has been a hot button issue of recent, most recently with the famous/infamous Stephen Colbert testimony in a Congressional committee (depending on your opinion). On one of the few serious moments, Colbert alluded to how we should help the least among us, and migrant farm workers are the least and have no rights.

Perhaps it's just my personal opinion, but I'm starting to get a little flummoxed by the constant one sided presentation of the immigration debate because it is leaving out one important piece of the puzzle to get a more holistic view of the issue. The morality is usually placed squarely on America's shoulders for taking advantage of migrant workers. That is definitely an issue, but the question is this: what about Mexico?

I think it gets overlooked quite often that the life of the migrant worker is so bad in their home country that coming to America as a migrant worker is often preferable or a better situation (not that you would label it as a good situation, just better). So, isn't there just as much of a moral duty on Mexico's part to reform and change so that this is no longer the situation?

I guess this argument can flow over to other issues like sweat shops and other similar situations. Isn't there just as much of a moral duty on the part of the home country to try and make sure that $1 a day sweat shops aren't the best possibility for work? Or is it our fault for buying too many Nike shoes?

Discuss.

 

[The_Boss_Giygas]

I think there is already an immigration debate thread.

But I'll give you my answer.
Yes Mexico is not the most perfect country on earth. Here are some reasons why many decide to come to the U.S from there.

There are way too many Farm jobs in Mexico that already have people working on them, that means those who want to be farmers in Mexico cannot be since there is no Farm work openings. There are many non farming jobs in Mexico, but those require somewhat a higher level of education which many Mexicans don't have. So they come to the U.S for the farm work they know how to do.
Solution: Better education, more schools, more teachers, etc. My Aunt is a teacher in Mexico and she along with many other teachers always get mistreatment from the government and such, she's been to many protests and such, because of this, not too many want to be teachers as it pays little, almost no benefits, and school budgets/supplies suck, however this is changing little by little for the better.

Mexico's Government isn't the best either, like the U.S our congress in Mexico takes ages to pass laws and the political parties always go at each other never agreeing on anything. And our president is not smartest guy around either. But the state governors do some good things, but some people still feel mistreated and thus they leave. The solution would be to make our politicians smarter and ethical (never gonna happen), many still believe President Calderon was unfairly voted in.

There are a couple social culture issues as well, like racism and such, and some feel leaving the country is the best way to avoid discrimination, though every country on earth has this issue.

The Mexican drug cartels are the biggest problem, many of those who live in cartel filled cities (mostly close to the border) flee in fear of the violence. The Mexican Military is now taking on the cartels and they've arrested many strong figures, but to prevent cartels from being born again the demand for drugs as well as other illegal desires needs to stop.

Yes Mexico does have its responsibility and we are taking care of it. The U.S employers looking for cheap labor that's not our problem.

 

[BigLutz]

The US essentually has 3 jobs to do when it comes to Immigration.

A: Fine and Prosecute any employer breaking our immigration laws by hiring a illegal.

B: Seek out and deport all illegals.

C: Protect the border by any and all means, including lethal means.

In a perfect world the U.S. would live up to all 3, they do not have a duty to reform Mexico, that is Mexico's duty.

The problem is that Mexico really will not reform itself any time soon when it comes to illegal immigration, and why would they? They have a pretty sweet deal going on. They can take all their poor, and essentially point them to the rich country and say "Go get it". So not only are they getting rid of a sizable amount of their poor population. That population in turn is sending money BACK to Mexico and reinvigorating its economy. And if the U.S. tries anything to stop them, they stomp their feet, cry racism, and run to the U.N. Again, a pretty sweet deal, one they are not likely to give up any time soon.

The best thing we can do to Mexico, the best thing to bring about reform in that country is to give it some tough love. Enforce our laws, send back the 10 to 15 million Mexican citizens here, and let Mexico find a way to run a country that doesn't involve throwing its trash into the next door neighbor's yard.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

The solution would be to make our politicians smarter and ethical (never gonna happen), many still believe President Calderon was unfairly voted in.

Politicians smart and/or ethical? I almost died laughing!

So, isn't there just as much of a moral duty on Mexico's part to reform and change so that this is no longer the situation?

I'd say that's true. That really does sum it up. Multiple sides are doing wrong, and most people make excuses. People here who seem to advocate illegal immigration (oh--my mistake--undocumented citizens), always seem to make it out like since Mexico is so bad, we must allow them to stay here illegally. Your point shows why this is clearly wrong. Very good!

 

[Dragoon952]

I think there is already an immigration debate thread.

But I'll give you my answer.
Yes Mexico is not the most perfect country on earth. Here are some reasons why many decide to come to the U.S from there.

There are way too many Farm jobs in Mexico that already have people working on them, that means those who want to be farmers in Mexico cannot be since there is no Farm work openings. There are many non farming jobs in Mexico, but those require somewhat a higher level of education which many Mexicans don't have. So they come to the U.S for the farm work they know how to do.
Solution: Better education, more schools, more teachers, etc. My Aunt is a teacher in Mexico and she along with many other teachers always get mistreatment from the government and such, she's been to many protests and such, because of this, not too many want to be teachers as it pays little, almost no benefits, and school budgets/supplies suck, however this is changing little by little for the better.

I didn't see an active thread, my fault.

I'm glad you chimed in. We usually don't get news and information about social/political issues going on with our neighbors. Too much American Idol.

Are all of the schools government run in Mexico? Is there a private school system as well?

In terms of farm jobs, I honestly want to find out why we even have a need for migrant farm workers. I suppose it costs less than using heavy machinery, but I would think we were at the point where most large farms were less labor intensive that farms have been in the past because of technological advances that are, arguably, readily available in the US. On a side note, too, I wonder if there is actually a high demand for "hand picked" fruits and vegetables here. Side issues, I suppose.

Mexico's Government isn't the best either, like the U.S our congress in Mexico takes ages to pass laws and the political parties always go at each other never agreeing on anything. And our president is not smartest guy around either. But the state governors do some good things, but some people still feel mistreated and thus they leave. The solution would be to make our politicians smarter and ethical (never gonna happen), many still believe President Calderon was unfairly voted in.

Mexico has a federal form of government, correct? How much power and authority rests with individual states in Mexico? Or is the Federal government the real holder of the power?

I think that is a lot of the current problem with American politics, in terms of the fact that more and more is being taken from local government and being centralized in a far off bureaucratic ruling class.

There are a couple social culture issues as well, like racism and such, and some feel leaving the country is the best way to avoid discrimination, though every country on earth has this issue.

I didn't realize there were such racial tensions in Mexico. I was aware of the problems on the southern border, though, in terms of the same issue of non-Mexican immigrants coming over the border. Don't they get arrested and deported? Isn't Mexico building a border wall as we speak while Calderon bashes America for doing the same thing for the same reasons?

The Mexican drug cartels are the biggest problem, many of those who live in cartel filled cities (mostly close to the border) flee in fear of the violence. The Mexican Military is now taking on the cartels and they've arrested many strong figures, but to prevent cartels from being born again the demand for drugs as well as other illegal desires needs to stop.

So American drug use is at fault? It is again joint blame and responsibility, because Mexico can't control the flow of illegal substances through their own country.

Although, I must admit, the drug war scares me down there and is very underreported. I thin kthere have been more deaths in the past few years down there than in Iraq.

Yes Mexico does have its responsibility and we are taking care of it. The U.S employers looking for cheap labor that's not our problem.

I'll have to say, it doesn't look like things are getting taken care of. It looks like it keeps getting worse. It just seems that the fingers are always pointed north of the border.

US employers taking advantage of low wage migrant workers is a horrible problem, but that doesn't absolve Mexico from letting it get to this point. I just want to see a joint effort, and from our standpoint (especially if you look at Calderon's most recent visit) we are the evil in the equation.

It's probably too much of a dream to hope that Mexico and the United States could admit their own faults and cooperate on the problem.

Politicians smart and/or ethical? I almost died laughing!



I'd say that's true. That really does sum it up. Multiple sides are doing wrong, and most people make excuses. People here who seem to advocate illegal immigration (oh--my mistake--undocumented citizens), always seem to make it out like since Mexico is so bad, we must allow them to stay here illegally. Your point shows why this is clearly wrong. Very good!

I just want to make sure we see the problem looking at the entire picture. The recent Colbert escapade showed that, once again, it is our fault. We need to start addressing all angles of the problem, but unfortunately that is ifinitely hard with two sovereign nations.

Awarding them with citizenship is not the answer. It encourages the continuation of this with a reward if nothing is done to control the border. If you have a leak, you need to fix the leak first and then bail out. Bailing out while the water keeps running doesn't do anything.

 

[The_Boss_Giygas]

Are all of the schools government run in Mexico? Is there a private school system as well?

The public schools follow an education department thing that is connected to the federal government, universities and private schools do exist and they make their own money via student tuitions and such so they don't look for the government to support them that much.

In terms of farm jobs, I honestly want to find out why we even have a need for migrant farm workers. I suppose it costs less than using heavy machinery, but I would think we were at the point where most large farms were less labor intensive that farms have been in the past because of technological advances that are, arguably, readily available in the US. On a side note, too, I wonder if there is actually a high demand for "hand picked" fruits and vegetables here. Side issues, I suppose.

The agriculture industry is very demanding, wake up early and pick all day, in order to keep up with food demands people need to be hired and stay hired very easily and in order to make good profit low pay is sometimes necessary. Plus you need to live out there close to the farms as opposed to the city life. Some things can only be hand picked, a machine will not always cut cherries the right way and may end up crushing & wasting a lot of plants & fruits. Many Americans don't like these kinds of working conditions.

Mexico has a federal form of government, correct? How much power and authority rests with individual states in Mexico? Or is the Federal government the real holder of the power?

State governments can make their own laws if they want, for instance Mexico city has now legalized same sex marriage, the state of Coahuila has legal same sex civil unions, Yucatan has banned same sex unions and marriages, other states are starting to bring this issue up for discussion and see what laws they decide to pass, so yes the states have their own rights. It's much like in the U.S the states can do their own thing so long as it doesn't override what ever federal government laws there are.

I didn't realize there were such racial tensions in Mexico. I was aware of the problems on the southern border, though, in terms of the same issue of non-Mexican immigrants coming over the border. Don't they get arrested and deported?

Mexico's border with Guatemala is brutal as well, we do mistreat the illegals coming from there into Mexico and we do send them back, we don't do this to Americans and Europeans and such that come to Mexico since we desire their money, the poorer central american countries not really. And yes there are still racial tensions between the native indians of Mexico and the "new" Mexicans though this mostly in poor "uneducated" parts of the country, modern cities and places not so much.

Isn't Mexico building a border wall as we speak while Calderon bashes America for doing the same thing for the same reasons?

I don't think Calderon has directly bashed or accused the U.S of being inhuman against illegals, he just says all people should be treated "fairly" no matter were they are or something like that. When the Arizona Law took effect, Calderon did warn people not to go to that state as it's not "safe" and you will all get arrested for simply looking Mexican, I guess he kinda bashed on Arizona.

So American drug use is at fault? It is again joint blame and responsibility, because Mexico can't control the flow of illegal substances through their own country.

The Drug cartels have many authorities bought both in Mexico and in the U.S that's why they can grow their drugs in Mexico or have them come in from South America with little trouble, and then bring them to the U.S in huge numbers with little trouble. It's not "Mexico's" fault that there are cartels, drug cartels exist in many different countries. It is the Cartel's fault for doing what many Americans tell them to do and that is bring the drugs here. And it's also the American's fault for asking for illegal drugs and such.

Although, I must admit, the drug war scares me down there and is very underreported. I thin kthere have been more deaths in the past few years down there than in Iraq.

Well in the Mexican news channel that I watch, every single day they report something about he drug cartels, here in Mexico it is very popular and is very reported, in the U.S I guess it is underreported.
As far as Mexico vs Iraq, I'm not too sure, there are many unreported deaths in Mexico that relate to the drug war, but there's many unreported deaths in Iraq, but I think Iraq is still more violent, in Mexico we don't have suicide bombers or planes dropping bombs all over the place. As far as a single city yes Ciudad Juarez of Mexico does rank higher than any single Iraqi city in deaths, 1 in every 10 people or so die in Ciudad Juarez, but just in that city, really there's only like 4 deadly cities in Mexico as opposed to 10 or so deadly cities in Iraq.

I'll have to say, it doesn't look like things are getting taken care of. It looks like it keeps getting worse. It just seems that the fingers are always pointed north of the border.

Some of these are propaganda lies and such, this year and last year there have been many major arrests of drug cartel lords. It may look like we're losing the drug war because of an increase in violence, but that's because the tighter you squeeze these cartels the harder they're gonna strike at you, progress requires major violence, but is still some kind of progress.

For instance around 2005-2008 Tijuana was in bad shape, the Ruling Drug cartel of Tijuana was brought down with the arrests of All their leaders, and the leaderless followers caused some major trouble, they shot up a big public Hospital trying to retrieve some injured followers, they had a shoot out in front of a Kinder School with the Police, and so on. However today Tijuana's violence decreased a lot around 2009-2010 and the Tijuana cartel does not truly exist anymore, so for the moment that city did accomplish something, the potential problem now is the other major cartels that are trying to move into Tijuana to take over, but it hasn't happened just yet.

US employers taking advantage of low wage migrant workers is a horrible problem, but that doesn't absolve Mexico from letting it get to this point. I just want to see a joint effort, and from our standpoint (especially if you look at Calderon's most recent visit) we are the evil in the equation.

Well here Mexico can't really tell U.S Employers to not hire illegals, even if we do WE can't arrest them so why would they listen to us, that is the U.S's job to enforce their laws. Mexico can clean up Mexico, but if the people still prefer the much cleaner U.S well we can't really force them to stay we're not that kind of regime, if they want to go well then let them go, be it to the U.S China Japan England etc.

It's probably too much of a dream to hope that Mexico and the United States could admit their own faults and cooperate on the problem.

Even if they know what their faults are, if they choose not to fix the problem then what can people do, but to protest & protest until they come to their sense.

I just want to make sure we see the problem looking at the entire picture. The recent Colbert escapade showed that, once again, it is our fault. We need to start addressing all angles of the problem, but unfortunately that is ifinitely hard with two sovereign nations.

Like I said Mexico is doing it's job, maybe nobody hears about over here, or they don't hear the positive things only the scary ones, that doesn't mean good things aren't happening.

Awarding them with citizenship is not the answer. It encourages the continuation of this with a reward if nothing is done to control the border. If you have a leak, you need to fix the leak first and then bail out. Bailing out while the water keeps running doesn't do anything.

Yes the U.S is in a tough pickle, if you suddenly deported all the farm workers and such then the agriculture industry could slow down meaning less food delivered and higher prices since they can't get cheap labor.

 

[The_Panda]

I broadly agree I guess with more conservative views on this subject, to the extent which I think illegal immigration is a pretty bad thing on principle: it's en masse queue jumping and seriously unfair for those who have to go through the legitimate migration process, which despite its complexities and difficulties, in the end is something that works out and seriously helps many people. Further, Mexico isn't like Afghanistan; it's a basket-case but from my understanding there is no widespread persecution, famine and civil war in the country that would warrant refugee programs. The American government should definitely do more to enforce its border (the idea of 'lethal' means is absolutely abhorrent to me, but that doesn't mean there's a lot more within reasonable scope that can and should be done). Furthermore, Jus Soli doesn't actually make all that much sense to me as a principle, and creates the anchor baby problem as has already been discussed.

At the same time however, I think there should be a considerate and perhaps 'liberal' (in a sense totally unassociated with the modern political movement) towards those who are currently here illegally. I don't believe laws should necessarily be absolute, and cases in such complex matters should be assessed case by case. If there is a family that has been here illegally for fifteen years, perhaps they have broken the law but it doesn't really make much sense to expel them: that would be law for law's sake, and it would only cause immense and undue hurt for little benefit. On the other hand someone working in the country for only a year is in not such a predicament, and should be expelled. To this extent, amnesty should be explored as an option.

Basically, the US has the clean up its act. This should be done through a humane approach that acknowledges the complexities of issue.

 

[7 tyranitars]

In a perfect world the U.S. would live up to all 3, they do not have a duty to reform Mexico, that is Mexico's duty.

ehm I don't think he said it was the duty of the usa but the duty of mexico.

Politicians smart and/or ethical? I almost died laughing!

lol yeah now i think of it there are practicaly no smart/ethical politicans look at bush for example

anyway those iligals there already contribute a big part to the Us economy like said it will make the prices go up and people will complain about that

 

[MetalFlygon08]

Now I have a question, that may point to a solution.

Couldn't the US fine Mexico each time an illegal immigrant is captured? It would deffintely start making Mexico want to keep their people in their borders.

or am I thinking of countries too much like people.

 

[Aquanova]

Its not our job to save the world. Mexico needs to make an effort to save themselves. Its sad that they think the only way for a future is to go to America, we are far from a perfect country. Mexico could be a good country like America someday, they have to want to make it this way though.