Most annoying regional layouts in any game?

[Pokefan_1987]

After playing most of the games i've learned a few games that have quite a few confusing layouts.

Gen 1: Not many problems in my opinion. But having to use flash and repel to avoid zubats, tentacool and exploding koffing and gravelers.

Gen 2: Had quite a few blockers like Sudowoodo and caves like the Ice Cave before Clair's gym was annoying.
As for Gold and Silver remakes not many changes not much changed

Gen 3 Hoenn the sheer ammount of HM's needed for traversing doesn't make for a fun experience. The remakes didn't make it any better, but the variety of creatures available in the remakes allows you to better plan your team including GTS trades.

Gen 4: This one also gives Hoenn a run for the money in terms of HM's needed. And if you play Platinum you better bring a balanced team both for traversing the Distortion World and how to fight Cyrus. Many of the Gyms are also annoying including Snowpoint City gym.

Gen 5: This one wasn't so tough and did lessen the ammount how HM's needed for traversing the region. But not too tough. Still my biggest gripe was Elesa in Black and White 2. She created a new gym with a fashion model stage. But when you get there, you're told she went to visit her old gym and when you get there where she was at the end in the far back in Black and White 1 keep in mind those roller coasters are slow... she's already gone. In short you're drained after 8 battles. I hated that prank.

Gen 6: No much experience here

Gen 7 All versions: It was great to be rid of HM Slaves but the increased size with 4 Islands sure makes memorizing the layouts exhausting. Good thing it was easy.

Gen 8: Traveling through this region is such a breeze compared the other games.

 

[Leonhart]

Houen (Hoenn) and Shinou (Sinnoh) come to mind foremost. The former because of the need for Surf to explore at least half of the region, and the latter because of the sheer amount of HMs needed to traverse the landmass.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Every region since Unova. Way too linear and dumbed down.

 

[Ophie]

Houen (Hoenn) and Shinou (Sinnoh) come to mind foremost. The former because of the need for Surf to explore at least half of the region, and the former because of the sheer amount of HMs needed to traverse the landmass.

Hoenn definitely. As the infamous review said, "Too much water."

It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the music wasn't overridden and you weren't constantly bumping into Tentacool and Tentacruel along the way.

 

[NovaBrunswick]

Pretty much any place that has ice. Haunting memories of the Ice Path in the original Silver and Wallace's gym in Ruby and OR come to mind.

Hoenn definitely. As the infamous review said, "Too much water."

It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the music wasn't overridden and you weren't constantly bumping into Tentacool and Tentacruel along the way.

Route 41 in Johto also has this annoyance, and you also need to have someone with the HM Whirlpool to get past the whirlpools the first time you go there. Luckily, after you get Fly, you don't have to deal with the whirlpools anymore, except maybe to catch Lugia.

Gen 7 All versions: It was great to be rid of HM Slaves but the increased size with 4 Islands sure makes memorizing the layouts exhausting. Good thing it was easy.

At least you didn't have to surf (or Sharpedo Ride) between all the islands like in Hoenn. Maybe because the ocean between them is too large for a Pokémon to comfortably traverse over long distances and periods of time.

Houen (Hoenn) and Shinou (Sinnoh) come to mind foremost. The former because of the need for Surf to explore at least half of the region, and the former because of the sheer amount of HMs needed to traverse the landmass.

Will the Diamond/Pearl remakes bring back HMs?

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

Sinnoh was a bit of a mess when it came to the Routes that you could only get to by going through Mt Cornet, particularly Snowpoint City’s path. The Sevii Islands were also a bit messy with Alternating Cave and Tanoby Chambers being the worst of it.

 

[Pokefan_1987]

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Pretty much any place that has ice. Haunting memories of the Ice Path in the original Silver and Wallace's gym in Ruby and OR/AS come to mind.

Good lord Wallace's Gym in the remakes. The last one is 86 of them have at least 2 unavoidable trainers that you need to pass by and fight. But afterwards that trainer is blocking the tile you need next. This means going up there a 3 times. They really overdid it with the ice tiles.

 

[Tsukuyomi56]

Hoenn and Sinnoh having too many HMs to my liking. Sinnoh seems to need a HM mule if you don't want to cripple your team too much for the final Team Galactic fights. At the very least they could vary the encounter tables for the Hoenn water routes so you are not seeing Wingull and Tentacool almost all the time.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Route 41 in Johto also has this annoyance, and you also need to have someone with the HM Whirlpool to get past the whirlpools the first time you go there. Luckily, after you get Fly, you don't have to deal with the whirlpools anymore, except maybe to catch Lugia.

Whirlpool isn't needed to go between Olivine and Cianwood, you only need it to go to Whirl Islands.

Also, to all of the people complaining about HMs you should ask yourself this: do you hate layouts with HMs because you don't like having to deal with the obstacles themselves or because you have to sacrifice a move/party slot? Or in Surf's case, because of unavoidable wild encounters? Because if it's the move/party slot or the wild encounters, that's more of a problem with the mechanics than the layout and that would be fixed with modern improvements like having Poke Ride/Secret Techniques and having overworld encounters like LGPE/SwSh. I don't really see an issue with the layouts themselves for those problems, and the simplifications they've made to the region design in later games feels more like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater whereas the changes they've made since to HMs and wild encounters is a better fix to the root cause of those issues.

 

[Ophie]

Whirlpool isn't needed to go between Olivine and Cianwood, you only need it to go to Whirl Islands.

Also, to all of the people complaining about HMs you should ask yourself this: do you hate layouts with HMs because you don't like having to deal with the obstacles themselves or because you have to sacrifice a move/party slot? Or in Surf's case, because of unavoidable wild encounters? Because if it's the move/party slot or the wild encounters, that's more of a problem with the mechanics than the layout and that would be fixed with modern improvements like having Poke Ride/Secret Techniques and having overworld encounters like LGPE/SwSh. I don't really see an issue with the layouts themselves for those problems, and the simplifications they've made to the region design in later games feels more like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater whereas the changes they've made since to HMs and wild encounters is a better fix to the root cause of those issues.

That's a good point--I always considered it a waste of one or more party members, but the HMs themselves I never had much problem with, at least ever since they allowed you to ust press A and activae the relevant move. (Having to go into the menu and select it every time like in Generation I and some HMs in Generation II, that was a real hassle and a real source of annoyance.) The lack of any counterpart to HMs in Galar besides Surf and Fly, I believe, is in part responsible for the area having very little in terms of puzzles and terrain. It's pretty odd, since it's clear Game Freak's people heard the complaints about HMs, but the Poké Ride mechanic in Alola was well-received, so I thought Poké Ride would return in Galar, or at least the Rotom Bike could've had more upgrades, like a Strength counterpart and a Waterfall counterpart.

I see a similar thing with Sonic fans complaining that there are too many playable characters. But stepping back, one can see a pattern in playable characters who are very much hated (Big, Amy) and playable characters the fans actually like (Blaze, Rookie): The disliked playable characters have gameplay far removed from Sonic's, while the well-liked playable characters have gameplay very similar to Sonic's. This is something Sonic Team still hasn't figured out, and they interpreted the complaints literally--then gave Sonic multiple forms with far-removed gameplay that people complain about (Werehog Sonic, Wisp Power Sonic) and were baffled about why they're still complaining.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

That's a good point--I always considered it a waste of one or more party members, but the HMs themselves I never had much problem with, at least ever since they allowed you to ust press A and activae the relevant move. (Having to go into the menu and select it every time like in Generation I and some HMs in Generation II, that was a real hassle and a real source of annoyance.) The lack of any counterpart to HMs in Galar besides Surf and Fly, I believe, is in part responsible for the area having very little in terms of puzzles and terrain. It's pretty odd, since it's clear Game Freak's people heard the complaints about HMs, but the Poké Ride mechanic in Alola was well-received, so I thought Poké Ride would return in Galar, or at least the Rotom Bike could've had more upgrades, like a Strength counterpart and a Waterfall counterpart.

Game Freak seems to place a lot of emphasis on giving each game unique gameplay mechanics based on its setting, they probably view Poke Ride as an Alola feature and wanted to implement field moves slightly differently in SwSh. But stripping down to just Surf and Fly was a huge mistake for sure.

I see a similar thing with Sonic fans complaining that there are too many playable characters. But stepping back, one can see a pattern in playable characters who are very much hated (Big, Amy) and playable characters the fans actually like (Blaze, Rookie): The disliked playable characters have gameplay far removed from Sonic's, while the well-liked playable characters have gameplay very similar to Sonic's. This is something Sonic Team still hasn't figured out, and they interpreted the complaints literally--then gave Sonic multiple forms with far-removed gameplay that people complain about (Werehog Sonic, Wisp Power Sonic) and were baffled about why they're still complaining.

I can see why they've done that, the issue with Sonic's gameplay is that in order to make the game fast, the levels need to either be really big or really short (this is Physics 101, speed = distance/time). 3D gameplay taking more time and resources to develop has only exacerbated the issue, which is why Sonic has never really adapted to 3D well whereas there's been several good 2D ones. The more hated gameplay styles like Big and the Werehog seem to be a way of padding out the game from keeping it too short at the expense of slowing the game down. There is an element of them seeming to not understand the root cause of the issue, but there's other issues there that are intrinsic to Sonic's gameplay that aren't related to Pokemon.

 

[Ophie]

@Bolt the Cat Of course--the point is that what fans complain about is not necessarily directly the source of the problems; sometimes, they are the symptoms, and from what you say about HMs, that'd be an example. (I used the Sonic example as it's straightforward and easy to explain. Incidentally, there were many complaints back in the 16-bit era of Sonic games being too short.) Poké Ride allows you to use HM skills without expending a move on a Pokémon. Most HM moves are worthless in battle, at least by the late game, and yet you're required to have them. As a result, they feel like restraints, continuously holding you back. Poké Rides eliminated that drawback, and people loved it.

Nevertheless, however, I still feel there was nothing preventing them from having Rotom Bike upgrades in different ways, which would've served the same purpose of having HM counterparts without needing to dedicate your team's moves toward them.

The core purpose of HMs was to restrict access to areas until you've completed particular story points; Poké Rides also served this purpose since, to my knowledge, they are given to you in very similar fashion. Without them, you had this weird use of what TV Tropes calls the "NPC Roadblock" (whose thumbnail has changed from a screenshot of Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen to Pokémon Sword and Shield since the last time I visited that page), where people or other living things would stand in your way and not let you pass. Granted, Team Yell was designed specifically for this purpose, but I would've preferred it if, say, Galar Mine No. 2 was blocked by a boulder and you needed a Rock Smash upgrade you'd get from someone in Hulbury after defeating Nessa.

 

[Aryash Bajaj]

Whoever thought of the fog system in DP must be high.

It's all around terrible. It affects your battles too. That's worse than Flash. How can you make something worse than Flash ?

For that, Sinnoh. It's one of the many things that destroy replay ability in Sinnoh. Defog and one of Rock Climb/Strength are useless in battles. Mt. Coronet being approachable from all sides is great but the fact that I'll have to carry both Rock Climb and Strength (and in victory road again) is just discouraging. It the worst usage of HM's I think. BW fixed a lot of it with making waterfall limited to side content only whole I could still get in the main campaign.

That and the stinking snow.

 

[Xionea]

Sinnoh by far. It's not so much the layout, but rather the artificial slow down of the game.

1. Snow. Trekking through the northern part of the map only for the snow to slow your movement, preventing you from running or biking, was horrendous. Glad it was only a small portion of the overall map, but still a part I dread going through in repeat playthroughs.

2. Marsh. Whoever came up with the marshland tiles was a sadist. Getting stuck every couple steps and shaking your way out (many times you'd only get one step in before it made you stuck again!), luckily it wasn't necessary to go through in the main story, but it ruined the Safari Zone and made it super annoying.

3. Fog. Needed to use Defog for it, waste of a move slot. Similar to Flash, you didn't really NEED to use it, but unlike Flash it actually hurts you to not use it. The fog lowering your accuracy to what feels like you only hitting 30% of the time was terrible. And since it's only used for one small portion of the game it was really just a waste of time no matter what you do, whether you brute force the route with lowered accuracy and vision, waste a move slot, or go out of your way to get some fodder Pokemon to teach it to for the 3 minutes you're in that route.

 

[NovaBrunswick]

Without them, you had this weird use of what TV Tropes calls the "NPC Roadblock" (whose thumbnail has changed from a screenshot of Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen to Pokémon Sword and Shield since the last time I visited that page), where people or other living things would stand in your way and not let you pass. Granted, Team Yell was designed specifically for this purpose, but I would've preferred it if, say, Galar Mine No. 2 was blocked by a boulder and you needed a Rock Smash upgrade you'd get from someone in Hulbury after defeating Nessa.

Remember the Snorlax that blocked your way on Kanto Route 12? There was also a sleeping Snorlax that blocked the bridge going to Camphrier Town in Kalos until you visited the Parfum Palace, and of course there was Sudowoodo to the west of Violet City in Johto.

 

[janejane6178]

Galar's cuz it was too simple with barely any backtracking

 

[Divine Retribution]

This seems to be an unpopular opinion but I loved Hoenn, and that was in large part due to the water routes that everyone else seems to hate so much. Coastal areas and islands are some of my favorite to hike in and explore in real life, so having a region that had a significant explorable coastal area was really cool. It also had some really cool biome diversity that the first two regions lacked.

The most annoying in my opinion was definitely Sinnoh, due to, as other people have mentioned, the amount of obstacles requiring HMs making it quite difficult to actually explore anywhere without a HM slave. I still like the general layout of Sinnoh but I do wish they'd cut some of the HM obstacles out. Perhaps in BDSP we'll have something that replaces HMs and removes this as a factor altogether.

Good lord Wallace's Gym in the remakes. The last one is 86 of them have unavoidable trainers that you need to pass by and fight. This means going up there a third time. They really overdid it with the ice tiles.

I don't really remember his gym so well in OR/AS but the fracturing ice puzzle in Emerald (and I believe Ruby/Sapphire if I remember correctly) was great. It forced you to plan your route out in advance but if you thought it through for a minute it wasn't hard to find the right path.

 

[Leonhart]

Also, to all of the people complaining about HMs you should ask yourself this: do you hate layouts with HMs because you don't like having to deal with the obstacles themselves or because you have to sacrifice a move/party slot? Or in Surf's case, because of unavoidable wild encounters? Because if it's the move/party slot or the wild encounters, that's more of a problem with the mechanics than the layout and that would be fixed with modern improvements like having Poke Ride/Secret Techniques and having overworld encounters like LGPE/SwSh. I don't really see an issue with the layouts themselves for those problems, and the simplifications they've made to the region design in later games feels more like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater whereas the changes they've made since to HMs and wild encounters is a better fix to the root cause of those issues.

Both I suppose, although I'm not sure why disliking rigorous terrain layouts is suddenly a bad thing. Is it wrong to dislike a region because it's a hassle to navigate through? I can tolerate temporary roadblocks just fine if they're meant to prevent players from reaching a certain area before a certain event is cleared, but to me it's far too much of a headache to traverse Shinou and Houen even in the post-game since there's a constant need to use HMs. I don't understand why Game Freak thought it was a good idea to fill the latter region with water during the second half of the game for instance. Even if they just wanted to be faithful to the area of Japan that Houen is based on, it was clearly not a pragmatic thing to do.

 

[Xuxuba]

Is this about having the worst layout or the most difficult to navigate? Because if it's the former, then Galar 100%.

I would say it's even worse than 1st Gen. It felt like nearly the entire region was made up of corridors with someone stopping you every 4 seconds.
The wild area being the exception, but at the same time it was so empty, ugly and boring with barely anything to do other than fight dynamax pokemon. Overall, the very narrow routes just killed most of the game's exploration, which to me is essential for rpgs, especially when it comes to world building.

Now if it's just the hardest to navigate, then Hoenn, since you need a lot of HMs, there are lots of water routes and the map doesn't help you that much.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Both I suppose, although I'm not sure why disliking rigorous terrain layouts is suddenly a bad thing. Is it wrong to dislike a region because it's a hassle to navigate through? I can tolerate temporary roadblocks just fine if they're meant to prevent players from reaching a certain area before a certain event is cleared, but to me it's far too much of a headache to traverse Shinou and Houen even in the post-game since there's a constant need to use HMs.

I mean it's all opinions so not really? Still though, a lot of the recent regions have felt mind numbingly easy to navigate and they could use more puzzling level design to make the areas more fun and challenging to explore. I don't think that's something that the games should be getting rid of.

I don't understand why Game Freak thought it was a good idea to fill the latter region with water during the second half of the game for instance. Even if they just wanted to be faithful to the area of Japan that Houen is based on, it was clearly not a pragmatic thing to do.

There's ways to salvage it by filling the area with more islands and landmarks instead of making it giant empty sea, but aside from that, again it's more an issue with random encounters. If you can see and avoid the wild Pokemon swimming around instead of being forcibly ambushed by them, it becomes MUCH easier to traverse.