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Most Skilled Battler V4

Who is the most skilled Pokemon Trainer in the Anime?

  • Cynthia

    Votes: 16 51.6%
  • Gladion

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sawyer

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • Ash

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • Katie

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Diantha

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • Alain

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Conway

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bea

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Paul

    Votes: 2 6.5%

  • Total voters
    31

GarchompTheAssassin

Water starter fan
What would you attribute her peformance against cynthia too if not comparable or superior skill then.

Faith/luck and the brute force/willpower of her only impressive Pokemon.

Like, what part of Iris' performance against Cynthia would actually suggest they have a comparable, let alone superior skill?

Nothing. Having Haxorus smash its head into the ground to delete Outrage-induced confusion and luring in Garchomp for a close-range Dragon Pulse were the only skillful things that Iris did in PM 2019 that I can remember.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Instinct is Cynthia. She was absolutely fearsome in the battle with Ash particularly. Not just strong Pokemon (that would make her a skilled trainer more than a skilled battler) but her actual use of the Pokemon in battles and fast switching was excellent.
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
Faith/luck and the brute force/willpower of her only impressive Pokemon.
Were Iris's pokemon tanking hits better and outputting more power? How impressive the battle looks in raw terms matters less than how the combatants perform relative to each other. When did Cynthia outskill Iris? This is a high-stake fight between two top tier trainers, either iris is very skilled, or her pokemon are disproportinately powerful. Otherwise Iris not having top tier skill is just story-breaking
Nothing. Having Haxorus smash its head into the ground to delete Outrage-induced confusion and luring in Garchomp for a close-range Dragon Pulse were the only skillful things that Iris did in PM 2019 that I can remember.
Again, relative performance is what matters here. Unless cynthia's pokemon are weaklings who cynthia has to cover for an absurd degree via tactics, Iris not being on the upper echoleon of skill simply doesn't work narratively
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
Cynthia being unlucky enough for a Horn Drill to land when she was utterly dominating Excadrill.

Like, what part of Iris' performance against Cynthia would actually suggest they have a comparable, let alone superior skill? The only strategy Cynthia actually used on that match was Gastrodon Acid Armor + Rain Dance + Muddy Water combo, which completely overwhelmed Iris to the point she has no other choice but to put all of her bets in a lucky shoot. The rest of battle is pure raw power, in which Iris was also outclassed.
she had cynthia beat in the absence of mega-hax(which i don't think is a matter of skll) and even then it was visually potrayed as a razor close victory(both pokemon stand, with black marks for a while till one falls).

Whether you want to credit that to iris's base mons being stronger or a skill advantage(cynthia did not come out looking more skilled to me in that fight), but "iris was outclassed" is just detached from actual reality, as is any sort of rating which ignores the actual outcome of their fight(a close defeat with a massive disadvantage)
 

Otto's

Well-Known Member
So having said that wouldn't it make sense to have both these trainers tied for the #1 spot or at least in the same tier?
IMHO they are fairly even. But I also believe this is a kind of situation where if you ask to a writer the would just say Cynthia, which they would also do if they were to compare, let's say, Lance and Conway. Conway has way more solid displays of being battle smart, but somebody who runs the show would probably tell you that Lance is smarter in face of his position.
Whether you want to credit that to iris's base mons being stronger or a skill advantage(cynthia did not come out looking more skilled to me in that fight)
You don’t "skill scale" to someone because you fight them without them relying to any battle tactic in during that battle. Early DP Paul seemed more skilled than Cynthia in terms of Battle Tactics but was solely overpowered by Cynthia's vastly superior strength, that doesn’t means he should be equal, let alone more skilled than her.

As such, I don’t get were Iris comes up in this debate in regards of skill. Against Cynthia she just went as straight fowards as she could, same with Cynthia after Gastrodon was taken down.
and even then it was visually potrayed as a razor close victory(both pokemon stand, with black marks for a while till one falls).
but "iris was outclassed" is just detached from actual reality, as is any sort of rating which ignores the actual outcome of their fight
I honestly wouldn’t like for this to go off-topic, but bruh.

The only one visually harmed after that clash was Haxorus, there's nothing that suggest that M-Garchomp was "razor close" to being defeated. Not a flinch, not a stumble, not even a dent; You don’t even know if Iris' Pseudo-Viridian Mind Dragon Pulse-thingy even reached Garchomp through her Draco Meteor, as for all it matters, it didn’t accomplish a thing.
 
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pickapika

Well-Known Member
You don’t "skill scale" to someone because you fight them without them relying to any battle tactic in during that battle. Early DP Paul seemed more skilled than Cynthia in terms of Battle Tactics but was solely overpowered by Cynthia's vastly superior strength, that doesn’t means he should be equal, let alone more skilled than her.
1. Why? Why doesn't "paul has unrivalled skill/prep ability but his outmatched in power" work here? Ties pretty well with "bonds make pokemon strong" and basically all of Paul's other fights vs powerhouses
2. How does this type of logic apply to Iris? All we know about post b and w Iris is
-> regional champion
-> achieves relativity to ash with less time as dedicated battler
-> fights herself all the way to the top 8 of the pwc(which probably entails beating a wide variety of opponents at or above the trianers people are listing here)
-> close fight with cynthia(i'll back this up later)

Iris being at or near the best of the best is basically a fact at this point. So either she is disportionaltely reliant on power, or she's in the upper echelon of skill.

Relying on "displayed tactics" without holistic consideration is a pretty terrible method for guaging trainers in a series where second round league losers can exhibit better strategy/competence than champions. Holistic potrayal can be applied to everyone, "skill feats" are wildly inconsistent. Iris vs Cynthia is the culmination of iris's journey as a battler, and this the potrayal we should take the most seriously. If iris isn't contending on the basis of her pokemon taking more hits and dishing out more damage, then either she's really skilled, or we have to throw out the narrative.
As such, I don’t get were Iris comes up in this debate in regards of skill. Against Cynthia she just went as straight fowards as she could, same with Cynthia after Gastrodon was taken down.
Do you think it's plausible to be one of the best trainers itw, and not be really skilled? The only way that works is if you're pokemon are outliers in terms of strength. You're missing the forest for the trees here. Whether she actually looks really impressive in a context-less comparison to conway doesn't really matter, what matters is how she's being potrayed narratively.
I honestly wouldn’t like for this to go off-topic, but bruh.

The only one visually harmed after that clash was Haxorus, there's nothing that suggest that M-Garchomp was "razor close" to being defeated. Not a flinch, not a stumble, not even a dent; You don’t even know if Iris' Pseudo-Viridian Mind Dragon Pulse-thingy even reached Garchomp through her Draco Meteor, as for all it matters, it didn’t accomplish a thing.
Here, let me list all the indicators:
-> Come out as equals in multiple straight power clashes to open the fight
-> Seeing these power clashes causes goh to exclaim "haxorus is putting up a real fight!"
-> When haxorus lands a hit(with iris outmanuevering cynthia, aka skill), garchomp bends and requires time+strain to get back up
-> Iris: "we're almost there"
-> Gunslinger standoff(this is exclusively reserved for close battles throughout the series)
-> Garchomp is hunched over and again requires time to straighten themselves with a deep breath
-> Audience watches for an extended period of time, visually potrayed as uncertain whose going to win
-> Annoucer: "the battle finally comes to an end
So in summary,
-> the episode has three different characters imply a close battle(without any contradiction)
-> We are directly shown the two mons coming out equal in multiple power clashes
-> Garchomp is visually echausted via multiple indicators
-> Spectators aren't sure whose won till the very end
-> Writers choose to show the end of the fight via a method reserved for close climatic duels

Why would any of this be happening if the battle was intended as a mismatch? We've already seen what mismatches look like in this very tournament(ex: alain vs leon), and they look absolutely nothing like this.

The intent here was clearly a close battle between peers, and this happens after Garchomp essentially goes supersaiyan. In her most important fight narratively(and thus the most reflevtive of where she's meant to stand), Iris is potrayed as as cynthia's direct rival despite not having her mega-amplification of her own. Additionally(unlike ash), her performance is not a result of her pokemon tanking a bunch of hits while one or two-shotting cynthia's mons. So if we extrapolate the rather obvious conclusion that Iris is a top tier trainer(supported by virtually everything we know about her as a battler), it doesn't really make sense to think that has nothing to do with her skill level.

Pretending trainers who haven't even come to qualifying for this level of competition are more skilled because "skill feats" is just brain-dead.
 

DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
I'd say Sawyer is the battler with the most potential in the entire anime, y'all gotta remember that while Ash, Iris, Paul, Alain, Cynthia, Leon, etc all took a decent amount of time to get to the level they're today, Sawyer had one region to get to the level he's been in XYZ, that's one boy going from losing to a Taillow to fighting an Elite Four tier opponent toe-to-toe in one region with 10% the amount of experience his opponent had, give Sawyer some time and he will learn how to improve on areas he's not that good at, such as improvising and thinking out of the box. With proper time I could see him being the next Cynthia in the anime, assuming they ever want to show adult versions of the characters.
 

Otto's

Well-Known Member
1. Why? Why doesn't "paul has unrivalled skill/prep ability but his outmatched in power" work here? Ties pretty well with "bonds make pokemon strong" and basically all of Paul's other fights vs powerhouses
…? Work where? In Iris vs Cynthia's case?

I'm honestly having a hard time cracking up what you’re trying to say, you'll later going to say that Cynthia = Iris in terms of raw power but start of by saying that them fighting implies that Iris is equally if not superior in skill to Cynthia, which both cannot be true as otherwise Iris would've won.

For the record, the case with Paul doesn’t works because it isn’t to say that raw power cannot defeat sheer skill, is that fighting someone who is not using anything but raw power is hardly an indicative of their skill being equal or superior; as there's nothing of their tactics that you are actually overcoming through conventional intelligence; this is specially true in a series were even the Powerscaling is fundamentally broken to even being to compare something as hard to properly quantify in even real life standards as intelligence; which is what you yourself would recognize later.
2. How does this type of logic apply to Iris?
We don't know, that why she doesn’t figures.
-> achieves relativity to ash with less time as dedicated battler
I mean, if you go strictly by those standards, Ash also defeated her with relatively new caught Pokémon (One of them having his first official fight ever under his command) even though she was using her Ace while Ash wasn't.
Relying on "displayed tactics" without holistic consideration is a pretty terrible method for guaging trainers in a series where second round league losers can exhibit better strategy/competence than champions. Holistic potrayal can be applied to everyone, "skill feats" are wildly inconsistent. Iris vs Cynthia is the culmination of iris's journey as a battler, and this the potrayal we should take the most seriously. If iris isn't contending on the basis of her pokemon taking more hits and dishing out more damage, then either she's really skilled, or we have to throw out the narrative.

Do you think it's plausible to be one of the best trainers itw, and not be really skilled? The only way that works is if you're pokemon are outliers in terms of strength. You're missing the forest for the trees here. Whether she actually looks really impressive in a context-less comparison to conway doesn't really matter, what matters is how she's being potrayed narratively.
The problem you have here is that you’re taking your interpretation of the narrative and making a case of why one should throw everything out of the window because "this was Iris' moment". And if we go by this, then ok. But what about Cynthia herself? You'll mention the battle, so you're aware that her match against Iris was not "the culmination of her journey as a battler", her fight against Ash was and as such that portrayal of Cynthia should be the one we should take the most seriously; which is not hard to do at all given how different Cynthia's approach in her match against Ash compared to Iris' and it's the battle that pushes her into recovering her long-lost passion for Pokémon battles.

And the thing about bold is that it's simply untrue. That would be the case have Iris won the match, which she did not. You don’t need to be more skilled or stronger than somebody who is above you to put up a fight, nor the narrative requires it so; you need it to pull a win. Like, Cynthia's stats revealed right after the first matches potrays Cynthia as superior to Iris in every single area bar the "surprise factor", regardless of it following the same narrative you’re claiming potrays them as equally strong/skilled. Which by the the logic we're playing with here should overrule any actual display in the series.

In regards of underline: I have already said that if it were by the writers, Lance would probably be regarded as more battle smart than let's say Conway despite him having a poor performance record in said regard, solely because of his current status. That's precisely why I said that Cynthia is the most skilled one yet out of sheer hype, but not by an actual displays of competency; which is the point of this thread. Her (Cynthia) saving grace (along Diantha) being that she actually has relatively showcases of in-battle strategy that can somewhat back up this competency instead of raking everything as:

TOP 10 MOST SKILLED CHARACTERS IN POKÉMON:
1. Leon
2. Ash
3. Cynthia
4. Diantha
5. Steven
6. Lance
7. Alain
8. Iris
9. Raihan
10. Unknown PWC Contestan who ranked in the 10th place.

My question, however, was at which point it was pointed that Iris was equally skilled, let alone above Cynthia in regards of skill; not if Iris was skilled or not. Edit: Talking about being redundant.

Here, let me list all the indicators:
CourteousAromaticCrab-size_restricted.gif

Truly a hair away from a win.

Now seriously: None of this says that Garchomp was "razor close to be defeated" and some of them have to be the most overlooked aspects in match that I have yet seen in any VS debate overall.
-> Come out as equals in multiple straight power clashes to open the fight
This is also true for Base Garchomp.
-> When haxorus lands a hit(with iris outmanuevering cynthia, aka skill), garchomp bends and requires time+strain to get back up
Either wrong or dishonest. Garchomp bends to use her blades in order to latch herself into the ground and stop her from further sliding backwards.
-> Iris: "we're almost there"
Almost where? She looks distressed after seeing the result of her Dragon Pulse over Garchomp despite being initially exited over getting an opening. She then immediately proceeds to synch with Haxorus and tell him that this will be their final attack, so it seems more to me that the comment is not exactly about Garchomp's condition.
-> Gunslinger standoff(this is exclusively reserved for close battles throughout the series)
Literally the previous match had this after Lance's Dragonite took Mega-Gardevoir's full Moonblast. The question was not if Diantha's Gardevoir would fall down, it was if Dragonite could still go on; so the proximity I see here is relative at best.
-> Garchomp is hunched over and again requires time to straighten themselves with a deep breath
Like she was when she took Axew's Dragon Rage in BW?
-> Audience watches for an extended period of time, visually potrayed as uncertain whose going to win
They are waiting for the cloud impact to go away.
-> Annoucer: "the battle finally comes to an end
… So what?

I really don’t get it. None of this supports the idea that Garchomp was close to be defeated, if anything that she suffered from a slight amount of damage, but you’re making it seem like Garchomp ended up like this:
s5cOeSs.jpg

When it honestly seems that Garchomp would’ve performed better against Mega-Lucario if she went straight against him after the match was done instead of Sirfetch'd.
 
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pickapika

Well-Known Member
…? Work where? In Iris vs Cynthia's case?

I'm honestly having a hard time cracking up what you’re trying to say, you'll later going to say that Cynthia = Iris in terms of raw power but start of by saying that them fighting implies that Iris is equally if not superior in skill to Cynthia, which both cannot be true as otherwise Iris would've won.
No. I'm saying Cynthia, without mega-evoloution, is holistically outmatched. My assertion is Cynthia loses witouth mega-evolving garchomp and that mega-evolving garchomp is a matter of power, as opposed to skill. Either Iris has an advantage over base cynthia in skill, or she has an advantage over base cynthia in power.
For the record, the case with Paul doesn’t works because it isn’t to say that raw power cannot defeat sheer skill, is that fighting someone who is not using anything but raw power is hardly an indicative of their skill being equal or superior; as there's nothing of their tactics that you are actually overcoming through conventional intelligence; this is specially true in a series were even the Powerscaling is fundamentally broken to even being to compare something as hard to properly quantify in even real life standards as intelligence; which is what you yourself would recognize later.
This doesn't work because of context. In a PWC battle it doesn't make any sense for Cynthia not to be fighting at full capacity. Cynthia holding back would be completely out of character here. It's reasonable to assume cynthia and iris are fighting at full capacity in what in a match to help decide who is the best trainer itw.
I mean, if you go strictly by those standards, Ash also defeated her with relatively new caught Pokémon (One of them having his first official fight ever under his command) even though she was using her Ace while Ash wasn't.
Fair enough.
The problem you have here is that you’re taking your interpretation of the narrative and making a case of why one should throw everything out of the window because "this was Iris' moment".
You're misrepresenting my approach.

I'm first assessing "holistic performance"/scaling and then i'm distirbuting that performance/scaling into power/skill based on how heaviily the former or the latter play into their performance.

Your approach seems to be to just look at "feats". I'm saying we shouldn't do that because the series is inconsistent in how skill is potrayed. In sinnoh skill is represented as setting intricate plans/traps that tap into your opponent's psyhology and likely moveset, and exploit the very physical/emotional characteristics of your pokemon(buisel using his sac, elctravire using his whips, gible eating a punch, ect). In most fights(including iris vs cynthia) "skill" is more mundane stuff like how well you time you attacks, create/exploit openings, get yourself out of situations, ect(iris pre-planning a counter in case hax gets confusion for example). The point of "skill-scaling" is "skill" varies wildly between fights, so, assuming you're in a situation where both fighters are giving it their all, comparing Iris and Cynthia's "skill" directly in battle is more useful than musing on whether DP conway, who for obvious reasons would get fodderized by anyone in the masters tournamenr, used more impressive displays of skill in his fight vs ash(in a season and a fight where "skill" meant something more dramtic than what we see in most battles in the series).

Unless you think Iris reaching the PWC(which would require pulling off a series of victories that would far outstrip anything conway at that point had achieved) was just my interpretation...

What I'm "throwing away" is "character has more impressive skill display in this completely different fight and therefore is more skilled
And if we go by this, then ok. But what about Cynthia herself? You'll mention the battle, so you're aware that her match against Iris was not "the culmination of her journey as a battler", her fight against Ash was and as such that portrayal of Cynthia should be the one we should take the most seriously; which is not hard to do at all given how different Cynthia's approach in her match against Ash compared to Iris' and it's the battle that pushes her into recovering her long-lost passion for Pokémon battles.
Sure. But what about Ash vs Cynthia contradicts Iris being able to beat Cynthia without mega-evolution?
And the thing about bold is that it's simply untrue. That would be the case have Iris won the match, which she did not. You don’t need to be more skilled or stronger than somebody who is above you to put up a fight, nor the narrative requires it so; you need it to pull a win. Like, Cynthia's stats revealed right after the first matches potrays Cynthia as superior to Iris in every single area bar the "surprise factor", regardless of it following the same narrative you’re claiming potrays them as equally strong/skilled. Which by the the logic we're playing with here should overrule any actual display in the series.
Well one, obviously in the context of this discussion, "suprise factor" would go under "skill" so Cynthia being two notches below the top level allows for other people to be more "skilled" in the context of this thread. We never see Iris's diagram so we don't know if her skill combination is higher, on par or lower. And naturally with mega-evolution Cynthia would score on par or higher than iris in power attributes. That's why she wins.
In regards of underline: I have already said that if it were by the writers, Lance would probably be regarded as more battle smart than let's say Conway despite him having a poor performance record in said regard, solely because of his current status. That's precisely why I said that Cynthia is the most skilled one yet out of sheer hype, but not by an actual displays of competency; which is the point of this thread. Her (Cynthia) saving grace (along Diantha) being that she actually has relatively showcases of in-battle strategy that can somewhat back up this competency instead of raking everything as:
So do you think reaching the PWC is "not an actual display"?
TOP 10 MOST SKILLED CHARACTERS IN POKÉMON:
1. Leon
2. Ash
3. Cynthia
4. Diantha
5. Steven
6. Lance
7. Alain
8. Iris
9. Raihan
10. Unknown PWC Contestan who ranked in the 10th place.
nitpicking, but shouldn't alain be at the bottom of the master contestants. He's the only person to get swept and is one of two people to lose to a base mon with a amplified one.
My question, however, was at which point it was pointed that Iris was equally skilled, let alone above Cynthia in regards of skill; not if Iris was skilled or not. Edit: Talking about being redundant.
That's my bad. I conflated your post with other posts in the thread which were arguing Iris shouldn't be in this thread.
CourteousAromaticCrab-size_restricted.gif

Truly a hair away from a win.
Let's not get caught up in semantics here. Do you agree it was "close"?
Now seriously: None of this says that Garchomp was "razor close to be defeated"
I think the stand-off alone gets you there.

As has been constant throughout the series, there are four basic degress of _victory margin_(descends with smaller gaps) when there's a climatic attack exchange:
1. Smoke clears you're already knocked out
2. You immediately fall
3. The other pokemon is shown, you are shown, you fall
4. stand-off, one pokemon eventually falls
Option 3 denotes close battles. Option 4 is used with nail-biters, ex: Ash vs Paul

This is also true for Base Garchomp.
It is not. Haxorus walks right through Base Garchomp's draco meteor, overpowers Garchomp when they clash heads, and then tanks two claw attacks before parrying Garchomp's tail. They are not equals at that point. Which is why when Garchomp mega evolves, Lance says "I can't tell how this battle will play out". Thus far Hax is winning, but maybe mega-evolution will be enough to turn the tide.

Then when they actually match each other's output, goh comments that haxorus is "putting up a real fight".

Keep in mind that character commentary during pokemon battles functions as straight exposition. Goh and Lance are more or less telling the audience, this fight can go either way, indicating Cynthia loses if she doesn't use her keystone. So unless you're atrributing keystone use as "skill"...
and some of them have to be the most overlooked aspects in match that I have yet seen in any VS debate overall.
These kinds of things are frequently used in versus debates. Holistic potrayal, surrounding statments, context, as well as what physically happens
And she visibly strains and takes time to get backup. Which triggers the "we're almost there" comment.
Almost where? She looks distressed after seeing the result of her Dragon Pulse over Garchomp despite being initially exited over getting an opening. She then immediately proceeds to synch with Haxorus and tell him that this will be their final attack, so it seems more to me that the comment is not exactly about Garchomp's condition.
Presumably she anticipated the move knocking garchomp out. What exactly do you think it's referring to if not garchomp's condition? "we're almost there" mirrors cynthia's "we'll finish this with our next attack". Both think they can beat the other mon with their next move, and both preface their move calls with commands to ensure the mons put everything in their attack.
Literally the previous match had this after Lance's Dragonite took Mega-Gardevoir's full Moonblast. The question was not if Diantha's Gardevoir would fall down, it was if Dragonite could still go on; so the proximity I see here is relative at best.
How does this apply to a situation where both mons attack each other?
Like she was when she took Axew's Dragon Rage in BW?

They are waiting for the cloud impact to go away.

… So what?

I really don’t get it. None of this supports the idea that Garchomp was close to be defeated, if anything that she suffered from a slight amount of damage, but you’re making it seem like Garchomp ended up like this:
s5cOeSs.jpg

When it honestly seems that Garchomp would’ve performed better against Mega-Lucario if she went straight against him after the match was done instead of Sirfetch'd.
Okay, I'll admit, the lack of visual marks in the iris cynthia fight is wierd. Is the implication here that garchomp didn't get hit? I suppose Garchomp did get their attack off first...
IMHO they are fairly even. But I also believe this is a kind of situation where if you ask to a writer the would just say Cynthia, which they would also do if they were to compare, let's say, Lance and Conway. Conway has way more solid displays of being battle smart, but somebody who runs the show would probably tell you that Lance is smarter in face of his position.
Not that this is all that relevant to Iris, but Paul's "skill displays" vs Ash are largely realiant on knowledge Paul has acquired from past encounters/fights.


So using Paul's "skill" vs Ash as opposed to Cynthia's makes for an unfair comparison. Paul's showings of skill vs trainers he holds no past history with are probably more indicative of what he can do in a typical battle
 
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sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
I'll never cease to be amazed at how much Iris stans can write.
They should consider a career in law with how much they love to bend and twist the truth so that it appears a completely different thing that is to their benefit. Or maybe not because they always do it so transparently everyone can tell they're full of bullshit.
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
I'll never cease to be amazed at how much Iris stans can write.
They should consider a career in law with how much they love to bend and twist the truth so that it appears a completely different thing that is to their benefit. Or maybe not because they always do it so transparently everyone can tell they're full of bullshit.
did iris kill your mom or....
 

Otto's

Well-Known Member
So. Forum ate my response.
No. I'm saying Cynthia, without mega-evoloution, is holistically outmatched. My assertion is Cynthia loses witouth mega-evolving garchomp and that mega-evolving garchomp is a matter of power, as opposed to skill. Either Iris has an advantage over base cynthia in skill, or she has an advantage over base cynthia in power.
I see.

I digress, but that's for later.
This doesn't work because of context. In a PWC battle it doesn't make any sense for Cynthia not to be fighting at full capacity. Cynthia holding back would be completely out of character here. It's reasonable to assume cynthia and iris are fighting at full capacity in what in a match to help decide who is the best trainer itw.
This is not mutually exclusive with Cynthia not making use of her skill but making the conscious choice of going for hyper-offensive approach. This is part of the reasons why Cynthia uses Garchomp as a Stealth Rock support and chooses to D-Max Togekiss over Mega-Evolving Garchomp again, or is she not fighting Ash at full capacity as well despite being under the same context?
I'm first assessing "holistic performance"/scaling and then i'm distirbuting that performance/scaling into power/skill based on how heaviily the former or the latter play into their performance.

Your approach seems to be to just look at "feats". I'm saying we shouldn't do that because the series is inconsistent in how skill is potrayed. In sinnoh skill is represented as setting intricate plans/traps that tap into your opponent's psyhology and likely moveset, and exploit the very physical/emotional characteristics of your pokemon(buisel using his sac, elctravire using his whips, gible eating a punch, ect). In most fights(including iris vs cynthia) "skill" is more mundane stuff like how well you time you attacks, create/exploit openings, get yourself out of situations, ect(iris pre-planning a counter in case hax gets confusion for example). The point of "skill-scaling" is "skill" varies wildly between fights, so, assuming you're in a situation where both fighters are giving it their all, comparing Iris and Cynthia's "skill" directly in battle is more useful than musing on whether DP conway, who for obvious reasons would get fodderized by anyone in the masters tournamenr, used more impressive displays of skill in his fight vs ash(in a season and a fight where "skill" meant something more dramtic than what we see in most battles in the series).

Unless you think Iris reaching the PWC(which would require pulling off a series of victories that would far outstrip anything conway at that point had achieved) was just my interpretation...

What I'm "throwing away" is "character has more impressive skill display in this completely different fight and therefore is more skilled
Bold; this is wrong. Using body physiology and so for Pokémon battles have always been a thing (Pikachu using his tail a resort to jump right over Drake’s Dragonite Hyper Beam comes to my mind). And so are the more “mundane" aspects of Pokémon fighting present in DP, I would go to say that they are even more present than they currently are, as they were directly encouraged in the Battle Section of Pokémon Contests and the development of what’s probably one of not the most known original move in the Anime in the Ice Aqua Jet and the Counter-Shield, the former which was created specifically to counter Fantina’s Hypnosis, with a basis on another original move created to dodge things more easily. DP only takes this to the next level, or at least built a reputation around it because of it.

The point is, however, that this instances are not "different ways" of representing overall skill. They are different forms of displaying skill. Similar on how Conway coming out with a Dusknoir specidically as slow as possible to make it the fastest in his Trick Room and Ash having an out of the fly idea of making Gible eat Dusknoir's Punch are pretty different things if you were to compare them with this set of mind but would still fall under the skill category. This goes all the way back to my first point in:
this is specially true in a series were even the Powerscaling is fundamentally broken to even being to compare something as hard to properly quantify in even real life standards as intelligence; which is what you yourself would recognize later.
Intelligence is not a single-path way, at all.

Underline; I'll repeat myself, but this is nothing short of an arbitrary approach, which is also contradictory when you read your first paragraph and your last paragraph; this is due the fact that you are initially taking into account how power and skill influence in one's performance individually but then going in another direction to say that a character showing more skill in a individual fight is the definitive factor.

This creates a major number of problems, because whereas I'm aware that in the second underline you’re trying to explain yourself that you’re basing yourself on the assumption that Cynthia is employing all of her skill against Iris, this remains inconsistent with first underline because this assumption directly ignores it’s premise: which is how heavily one’s skill or power makes up in someone’s performance; specially when talking about a particular fight (Haxorus vs Garchomp) directly and repeatedly referred as a clash of powers in which Cynthia directly stated that she'll defeat Iris making use of all of her might.

Ignoring that, this remains as arbitrary measure; as the next question is why should Iris' display of skill be considered more impressive than Cynthia’s? Gastrodon’s Acid Armor + Rain Dance + Muddy Water combination is also an skill based approach that completely broke Excadrill's momentum, and so does (?) Milotic constricting Jobnite in order to murder KO him with an Iron Head; why should I take Haxorus bashing his head against the ground (Despite not being a move exclusive for that match) to shrug off confusion and caught Garchomp in mid air with a Dragon Pulse as more impressive, even though Iris was herself basically helpless against those unlike Cynthia was against hers?

Ignoring that, how does skill scale works here? Cynthia defeated the same Pokémon that defeated Iris' own ace by using strategic means, which also allowed her to take down two more of his Pokémon including Ash's very own ace; despite that Ash's Dragonite also defeated Iris' Haxorus using skill related means.
Sure. But what about Ash vs Cynthia contradicts Iris being able to beat Cynthia without mega-evolution?
D-Max Togekiss. One thing, This comment is a direct answer at this:
Relying on "displayed tactics" without holistic consideration is a pretty terrible method for guaging trainers in a series where second round league losers can exhibit better strategy/competence than champions. Holistic potrayal can be applied to everyone, "skill feats" are wildly inconsistent. Iris vs Cynthia is the culmination of iris's journey as a battler, and this the potrayal we should take the most seriously. If iris isn't contending on the basis of her pokemon taking more hits and dishing out more damage, then either she's really skilled, or we have to throw out the narrative.
This answer does not goes over the subject of Cynthia being able to beat Iris with or without the Mega-evolution, this comment goes about taking meta elements out of an interpretation as factual aspect of the match in order to prioritize Iris' performance, without taking into account that this would also mean that Cynthia's is not; as such when evaluating Cynthia's own competency, it's easier to not take into account her displays against Iris when speaking about her.
So do you think reaching the PWC is "not an actual display"?
No.

You'll later tell me not to go by semantics. You know what I mean with displays.
nitpicking, but shouldn't alain be at the bottom of the master contestants. He's the only person to get swept and is one of two people to lose to a base mon with a amplified one.
I'm not going through this. This is just qualification order and my biggest surprise is that Alain being above Iris is your nitpick.
Let's not get caught up in semantics here. Do you agree it was "close"?
This might be a matter of miscommunication, so I'll be as clear about this as I can possibly be.

This entire Haxorus vs Garchomp debate sparked out of, particularly, the comment about Haxorus pulling "a close defeat". So your definition of a close defeat might differ of mines. "Close" as if "put a good fight", well yes.

"Close" as victory chance of 5/10, 6/10 or 7/10? At all. Pretty far from it, actually.
I think the stand-off alone gets you there.
I honestly think it's the most nitpicked aspect bar the "finally" comment, but w/e.
As has been constant throughout the series, there are four basic degress of _victory margin_(descends with smaller gaps) when there's a climatic attack exchange:
1. Smoke clears you're already knocked out
2. You immediately fall
3. The other pokemon is shown, you are shown, you fall
4. stand-off, one pokemon eventually falls
Option 3 denotes close battles. Option 4 is used with nail-biters, ex: Ash vs Paul
???

Infernape vs Electrivire is a terrible comparison, despite the fact that the very use of Blaze being triggered implies that Infernape is at his last in health and using a recoil move, the show still made clear that Infernape was heavily damaged by making him stagger right after the exchange; the same happened with Alain's Mega-Charizard X in what's probably the most infamous battle in the series with it staggering before Greninja falls down after the smoke is cleared.

This isn’t present in Mega-Garchomp vs Haxorus although it is present in the later Garchomp vs Sirfetch’d, even when Garchomp vs Mega-Lucario showcased that Garchomp was still several blows far from defeated. Following this line of logic would imply that Garchomp was one Magikarp's tackle away from falling.

It is not. Haxorus walks right through Base Garchomp's draco meteor, overpowers Garchomp when they clash heads, and then tanks two claw attacks before parrying Garchomp's tail. They are not equals at that point
I mean, you’re missing mentioning somethings, aren't you?

Haxorus uses Outrage all the way through what you're describing, and even thought it's a super-effective move, Garchomp also tanks two hits from Haxorus before recoiling back as well. "Parrying Garchomp’s tail" has to also to be a very convenient way of wording what happened there, as it’s not outright untrue as it would be saying that it was Garchomp who parried Haxorus’ tail; being a clash. one in which Garchomp is jot sing none of her moves. And since we're getting into commentary now, "a fierce trade of blows in which neither seems to go down" doesn’t seems to match what you’re describing nor saying right now.

Like, look a this:
It is not. Haxorus walks right through Base Garchomp's draco meteor, overpowers Garchomp when they clash heads, and then tanks two claw attacks before parrying Garchomp's tail. They are not equals at that point
tuRYrYj.jpg

And tell me that there's not a dissonance.
Which is why when Garchomp mega evolves, Lance says "I can't tell how this battle will play out". Thus far Hax is winning, but maybe mega-evolution will be enough to turn the tide.
It was Alain, not Lance (And the other was Hop), so consider yourself debunked.

Now, seriously speaking, the curious thing about that comment is that Alain is addressing at Steven‘s comment about Cynthia using her Mega-Evolution as her way of showing that she’s going seriously against Iris, at which he answers that Haxorus possesses a lot of potential as well and as such he doesn't knows how the fight would play out. Which points more to Alain expecting something else from Haxorus other than saying that Garchomp was on a tight spot when so far that was far from the reality of the match that has been going on.
Then when they actually match each other's output, goh comments that haxorus is "putting up a real fight".

Keep in mind that character commentary during pokemon battles functions as straight exposition. Goh and Lance are more or less telling the audience, this fight can go either way, indicating Cynthia loses if she doesn't use her keystone. So unless you're atrributing keystone use as "skill"...
I'll address this later, but I'll make a highlight to point out I genuinely do not understand what’s the actually though process of this all with underline.
These kinds of things are frequently used in versus debates.
They are not.
Holistic potrayal
Circumstantial.
surrounding statments, context, as well as what physically happens
Yes.

The problem is that this is not:
-> Gunslinger standoff(this is exclusively reserved for close battles throughout the series)
-> Garchomp is hunched over and again requires time to straighten themselves with a deep breath
-> Audience watches for an extended period of time, visually potrayed as uncertain whose going to win
-> Annoucer: "the battle finally comes to an end
Regular versus debates are actually more simplistic yet simultaneously more complex compared to Pokémon in the sense that there's more shades of gray. People will go for more individual showings in strength, speed and durability than following the A > B > C Dragon Ball mentality and be more conservative about the overall implications of someone defeating somebody else. Differences are bound to occur, sure, but this is not "normal"

Regardless and that aside (as it's not the point of discussion), if you, for example, show somebody the final exchange between Iris and Cynthia and tell them that said ending implies it being close to even because of this reasons… what can I tell you? Seems like something I would heard from TikTok power scaling.
And she visibly strains and takes time to get backup
… She looks startled at best. I recall watching this fight and looking someone in the comments asking if Garchomp literally ate the attack, because it did nothing to her (Anecdotical, but funny enough)

I'm not joking to you when I tell you that Axew Giga Impact seemingly did more damage to Garchomp than anything Haxorus ever did in his battle against her.
Which triggers the "we're almost there" comment.
Presumably she anticipated the move knocking garchomp out.
Is this the reaction of someone who just pushed her foe into KO range?
HeavenlyJitteryChamois-size_restricted.gif

She really would have cried regardless out the outcome.
What exactly do you think it's referring to if not garchomp's condition? "we're almost there" mirrors cynthia's "we'll finish this with our next attack". Both think they can beat the other mon with their next move, and both preface their move calls with commands to ensure the mons put everything in their attack.
Underline; Maybe, just maybe, their own.

And let's follow this whole narrative straight: Haxorus showcases to be virtually equal in power to Mega-Garchomp and it's so far the only one to land a clear shot (Unless you count the strikes he apparently tanked from Garchomp, which also has Garchomp taking two super-effective blows as well from an apparently much superior opponent at the time), and it's at that very moment where Cynthia just expects Garchomp to basically one-shot a Pokémon nothing short of equal to her own after receiving this groundbreaking damage, which just happened to actually work even through Iris' own final attack?
How does this apply to a situation where both mons attack each other?
Nothing, because it’s actually not about that. It's about camera angles or tropes have really few to do with the overall portrayal in a Match.
Is the implication here that garchomp didn't get hit? I suppose Garchomp did get their attack off first...
Either it did nothing to her or her Draco Meteor outright overpowered through it and secured the KO. As stated before, it actually didn’t harm her, so it just doesn’t makes a difference.
but Paul's "skill displays" vs Ash are largely realiant on knowledge Paul has acquired from past encounters/fights.
I digress for the most. Whereas I cannot speak from the LA battle because it's already been a while seen I last watched it, the rest of his fights fall right on equal amounts of knowledge of each other (I actually recall Ash watching more of Paul's battles that the opposite) and whereas is true that his Sinnoh league team is different whereas Ash kept the same, he explicitly went there to the fight not expecting for Ash to go with that team; so he didn’t built his team expecting it as a counter of everything that Ash had showed him and I don’t particularly see his strategies (other than maybe Electrivire's Motor Drive against Pikachu) working differently against other Pokémon. It actually played bad against him because he threw away to Pokémon for essentially nothing.
 
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Leon#1

Member
I must say it's funny to me to see so many walls of text trying to convince themselves of something so simple. Come on, this is an easy anime to digest, not a thesis of your professional career.


The anime made it clear, everyone who faces me will be a weakling because that is what the plot requires. That's why Diantha defeats Lance who was the second in the world and then is humiliated by me, which does not mean that she is weak, I like her more than trash tbh .

That said, the safest thing is to go with the ranking without counting ash and me because it is what objectively the writers take as canon

SO BEST TRAINERS

1. ME

2. Ash, sadly

3.Cynthia

4. Steven

5. Diantha (Beat Lance)

6. Lance

7. Iris & Alain

While Lance always stayed in the Top 5, these two are at the bottom, there's no telling who's better than the other so they're tied.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Ranking of the trainers on this poll:
  • Cynthia - 9/10​

  • Gladion - 0.003/10​

  • Sawyer - 8.9/10​

  • Ash - 8/10​

  • Katie - 8/10​

  • Diantha - 9.99/10​

  • Alain - 9.5/10​

  • Conway - 8/10​

  • Bea - 8.5/10​

  • Paul - 9.1/10​

 
Ranking of the trainers on this poll:
  • Cynthia - 9/10​

  • Gladion - 0.003/10​

  • Sawyer - 8.9/10​

  • Ash - 8/10​

  • Katie - 8/10​

  • Diantha - 9.99/10​

  • Alain - 9.5/10​

  • Conway - 8/10​

  • Bea - 8.5/10​

  • Paul - 9.1/10​

well at least you mentioned Bea hardly anyone mentions her even though she used an excellent combination of switches and strong attacks against Lucario
 
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