Muhammed and Pedophilia

[CSolarstorm]

To clarify about Jephthah's daughter, ebilly, Jephthah made a rash decision to sacrifice the first person that walked out of the doors of his house to God. Since the idea of human sacrifice was against Mosaic code at the time, it's unlikely he would do this, and God wouldn't approve of such a sacrifice anyway. And the story that involves his daughter being sacrificed literally even says that God didn't want human sacrifices, and the point of it is to highlight the tragedy of them. These days that story is more often interpreted as Jephthah sacrificing his daughter to religious service for the rest of her life, so she would live a life of celibacy, never get married, and his family would end there, which is chiefly what Jephthah and his daughter both complain about afterward.

 

[ebilly99]

To clarify about Jephthah's daughter, ebilly, Jephthah made a rash decision to sacrifice the first person that walked out of the doors of his house to God. Since the idea of human sacrifice was against Mosaic code at the time, it's unlikely he would do this, and God wouldn't approve of such a sacrifice anyway. And the story that involves his daughter being sacrificed literally even says that God didn't want human sacrifices, and the point of it is to highlight the tragedy of them. These days that story is more often interpreted as Jephthah sacrificing his daughter to religious service for the rest of her life, so she would live a life of celibacy, never get married, and his family would end there, which is chiefly what Jephthah and his daughter both complain about afterward.

Yeah b/c all the other times god has said to sacrifice humans in duetrotmy and Leveticus it was ok, but for Jephthah it was different. I love how it says he did what he said, he said he would sacrifice the first thing he saw as a burnt offering, and he saw his daughter. Where does it say he did this the other way. Verse or it didn't happen. What verse before this story does it say anything against human sacrifice. I gave plenty of verses that explain when god said human sacrifice was ok. Please do not Make the bible say something that it does not.

 

[Sadib]

Does the Bible say anything against marrying children?

 

[CSolarstorm]

Edit: marioguy is pretty much using appeal to hypocrisy, ironically a type of ad hominem, which marioguy has been saying mattj used.

I just would like to know what type of things you believe in and compare it to Islam on how believable it is. I'm guessing your religion doesn't have parts that do not make sense and is completely flawless.

What kind of horrible God would ask for child sacrifices? I'll let my buddy mattj answer this one.

Yeah b/c all the other times god has said to sacrifice humans in duetrotmy and Leveticus it was ok, but for Jephthah it was different. I love how it says he did what he said, he said he would sacrifice the first thing he saw as a burnt offering, and he saw his daughter. Where does it say he did this the other way. Verse or it didn't happen. What verse before this story does it say anything against human sacrifice. I gave plenty of verses that explain when god said human sacrifice was ok. Please do not Make the bible say something that it does not.

Okay, first, spare me the indignation.

I didn't say anything about the rest of them, I was just correcting your use of the story of Jephthah and his daughter. You said that you're giving examples of God asking for child sacrifice. God doesn't ask for Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter. Jephthah came up with the idea himself. Basically he came up with the idea to murder one of his own family, and God's not going to stop him any more than he'll stop any other murderer. Just because he did it in name of God, doesn't mean God approved it. Get it?

You also offered Isaac and Abraham as an example, and we all know that ends with God saying that it was just a test, so why would you use it? A couple other examples of child sacrifice are God telling them to kill the civilians (or at least, all the males) in the villages of their enemies, and those were during war, albeit a cold-blooded thing to do, but they're not individual ritualistic sacrifices. You can make a light case of the fact that the word sacrifice is used, but destroying villages aren't sacrifices in the way we would see them.

And then you offered the example of Jesus himself. 1) Jesus did not die as a child, 2) Either God sacrificed Jesus, or Jesus sacrificed himself, or both - but the human race is not really involved, and those following God's will at the time actually didn't want him to go.

So there are plenty of problems with the whole wall of text you offered to prove that God ordained child sacrifice. Even though I was actually just talking about Jephthah before. I don't even want to argue this with you, I don't really know the particulars if God ever seriously asked for a child sacrifice or not, but I suspect not - that's mattj's assertion.

Either way though, what exactly does it prove if you found instances in the Bible where it says God did ask for child sacrifices? This is a topic about Muhammad and pedophilia. Are you trying to prove there's as many flaws with the Christian religion as there is with Islam? If so, that's an appeal to hypocricy.

 

[ebilly99]

@sunny C I was answering a question Marioguy asked... Nothing more. I am sorry if it sounds like I am attacking. I realize most people understand that no one is perfect, I was only showing it was there.

 

[Sadib]

Edit: marioguy is pretty much using appeal to hypocrisy, ironically a type of ad hominem, which marioguy has been saying mattj used.

Either way though, what exactly does it prove if you found instances in the Bible where it says God did ask for child sacrifices? This is a topic about Muhammad and pedophilia. Are you trying to prove there's as many flaws with the Christian religion as there is with Islam? If so, that's an appeal to hypocricy.

I was only joking about child sacrifices. I know that Abraham was stopped right before actually killing his son. It would be hypocritical of me to even take about that, because Abraham is also in the Qu'ran. He probably has the same story too. I was talking about marrying children. I was curious to know if the Bible says anything against it. If it doesn't, there is no reason for mattj to complain.

 

[mattj]

If you want to discuss whether or not the Bible prohibits pedophilia I would be glad to have that conversation in a thread that's about the Bible and Pedophilia. If you want to have that conversation take the time to make a thoughtful OP. I don't see how the Bible's views on pedophilia have any bearing on whether or not Muhammad liked to tounch little girls, and whether or not that has any negative effect on his trustworthiness as a "quote unquote prophet of God".

 

[Ces]

Matt, just curious, where do you stand in this debate? Yes, I'm too lazy to check the rest of the thread.

 

[Sadib]

If you want to discuss whether or not the Bible prohibits pedophilia I would be glad to have that conversation in a thread that's about the Bible and Pedophilia. If you want to have that conversation take the time to make a thoughtful OP. I don't see how the Bible's views on pedophilia have any bearing on whether or not Muhammad liked to tounch little girls, and whether or not that has any negative effect on his trustworthiness as a "quote unquote prophet of God".

I don't see how Muhammad's actions affect his prophethood.

 

[mattj]

Matt, just curious, where do you stand in this debate? Yes, I'm too lazy to check the rest of the thread.

I'd tell you but I'm too lazy.

I don't see how Muhammad's actions affect his prophethood.

What if he had openly raped someone? Or openly murdered? Or openly lied? What if he was openly gay? Would those actions have given you reason to doubt his prophethood? Would any actions give you reason to doubt his prophethood?

Most people expect some sense of decency out of men who claim to have insight into the divine. For Mohammed to claim that he was a prophet, and then to violate innocent children, it makes most people doubt his claim to prophethood. That's the whole point of this thread.

 

[ChedWick]

I'd tell you but I'm too lazy.What if he had openly raped someone? Or openly murdered? Or openly lied? What if he was openly gay? Would those actions have given you reason to doubt his prophethood? Would any actions give you reason to doubt his prophethood?

Most people expect some sense of decency out of men who claim to have insight into the divine. For Mohammed to claim that he was a prophet, and then to violate innocent children, it makes most people doubt his claim to prophethood. That's the whole point of this thread.

Ah coupling homosexuality in with the likes of rape, and murder. Classic...

 

[mattj]

you're welcome

Honestly, it's because its just another thing that religious (most major religions) people wouldn't accept out of a prophet.

 

[Tisub Lord of Kummi]

Pedophilia is understood as both the fetish and any kind of sexualized contact with girls age 13 and younger. In this sense Mohamed is definitely a pedophile.

Today pedophilia is acceptable in some places like Afghanistan.

 

[Ces]

I'd tell you but I'm too lazy.

No need to be like that, I was checking something else.

Edit: Call me an idiot for not knowing these things, I'm checking the internet as I type this, but if someone could answer for me, that would be great:

1. Is Allah the same God as the Christian God?

2. Does the Qur'an condemn homosexuality?

 

[Sadib]

I'd tell you but I'm too lazy.What if he had openly raped someone? Or openly murdered? Or openly lied? What if he was openly gay? Would those actions have given you reason to doubt his prophethood? Would any actions give you reason to doubt his prophethood?

Let's make up hypothetical situations that have nothing to do with anything. What if John F. Kennedy was really the Pope's minion who was plotting on destroying America before he was killed? Does that make you happy he was killed? What if Hitler was the second coming of Jesus? Doers that make America against God? What if Mitt Romney is actually a robot that's going to create a black hole to end all life? Should we kill him before he kills us first?

 

[Ces]

Nevermind, found my answers.

@ChedWick: I agree with Matt on this one.

While I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality, the Quran supposedly says that it is an abomination. Matt only coupled homosexuality in there, as the Quran condemns it, not because he's comparing it to murder or rape (I think).

 

[mattj]

@marioguy: My question may have been hypothetical but it was completely on topic. We're specifically discussing Mohammed's taste for pre-pubescent children here, but because you don't seem to be able to understand why anyone would be appalled at your prophet just because he likes them bald, I brought up the hypotheticals of rape, etc... I really would like to hear your answer though because it might help you understand why so many people see his desire to tounch little girls as a disqualification for prophethood. I understand that you don't have a problem with pedophilia in general, but had Mohammed commited any other act that you do consider to be a sin would that disqualify him from prophethood in your eyes?

A personal, related hypothetical from my perspective would be if it was incontrovertibly displayed that Jesus murdered someone. I would leave my religion without hesitation because its author would not be consistent with any general understanding of right and wrong.

I realize that pedophilia isn't an issue for you, but what if it was something that actually is an issue for you.

I hope that helps you understand why so many people here and elsewhere see this as a serious dilemma.

 

[Sadib]

@marioguy: My question may have been hypothetical but it was completely on topic. We're specifically discussing Mohammed's taste for pre-pubescent children here, but because you don't seem to be able to understand why anyone would be appalled at your prophet just because he likes them bald, I brought up the hypotheticals of rape, etc... I really would like to hear your answer though because it might help you understand why so many people see his desire to tounch little girls as a disqualification for prophethood. I understand that you don't have a problem with pedophilia in general, but had Mohammed commited any other act that you do consider to be a sin would that disqualify him from prophethood in your eyes?

A personal, related hypothetical from my perspective would be if it was incontrovertibly displayed that Jesus murdered someone. I would leave my religion without hesitation because its author would not be consistent with any general understanding of right and wrong.

I realize that pedophilia isn't an issue for you, but what if it was something that actually is an issue for you.

I hope that helps you understand why so many people here and elsewhere see this as a serious dilemma.

If Muhammad raped people or killing for no reason, that would of course change my mind about him, but those things never happened. This debate is based on reality, not on some hypothetical situations.

 

[BigLutz]

If Muhammad raped people or killing for no reason, that would of course change my mind about him, but those things never happened. This debate is based on reality, not on some hypothetical situations.

Just curious then how you would explain some of these.

"Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka'aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa'd [the Qur'an's one and only scribe]. The reason that Allah's Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur'an Revelation. Then he apostatized [rejected Islam]."

"Abdallah bin Sa'd fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, 'By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!' One of the Ansar said, 'Why didn't you give me a sign?' Allah's Apostle replied, 'A prophet does not kill by pointing.'"

"Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa'id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her."

"Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"



Mind you I will always maintain that when he started off, he was possibly the most peaceful person in the Middle East, and that none of this should change your view of him. But the man also slowly became a warlord, so lets not pretend that he did not murder or order the execution of people in cold blood later on in his life.

 

[7 tyranitars]

I'd tell you but I'm too lazy.What if he had openly raped someone? Or openly murdered? Or openly lied? What if he was openly gay? Would those actions have given you reason to doubt his prophethood? Would any actions give you reason to doubt his prophethood?

Most people expect some sense of decency out of men who claim to have insight into the divine. For Mohammed to claim that he was a prophet, and then to violate innocent children, it makes most people doubt his claim to prophethood. That's the whole point of this thread.

Yes, yes, no everyone lies, no don't get me started about gay people. That being said I have doubts about everyone who claims to be a prophet, I rather think that they must have had a dream, or where very very high. And yes that is with Muhammed and every other prophet from any religion whatsoever.