Muhammed and Pedophilia

[BigLutz]

Why do you keep insisting that Muhammad was the only one who could possibly be lying. Let's switch perspectives for a bit. What if Muhammad was actually told by the Angel to marry the girl, because the Angel knows something we don't? Maybe if they didn't get married, she would have had a horrible life or something else that would affect history.

You would think if that was true that any conversation between him and the Angel would be reiterated in the story told by Aisha. Instead the only thing said in the story was "Uncover her"

Doesn't God have a plan for everything?

God also allows freewill.

Also what if God never actually told Abraham to sacrifice Issac? What if that was a story that was made up, because the author greatly enjoyed trolling future generations who would believe in his lies?

You seem to be grasping at straws here. However if it were true there probably would be some deviation in the story in the past. You are free to research the various copies of the Torah to see if there is any.

You never called me stupid? What does that have to do with anything?

The line was: Marioguy, you really shouldn't go around calling other people's assumptions "stupid" when you assume things yourself.

 

[Sadib]

You would think if that was true that any conversation between him and the Angel would be reiterated in the story told by Aisha. Instead the only thing said in the story was "Uncover her"



God also allows freewill.

Uncover her? What does that mean? God gave people free will so they can choose to follow his orders.

 

[BigLutz]

Uncover her? What does that mean?

You should know the story atleast. Mohammad had a dream of a angel bringing her to him in silk cloth, he said "Uncover her" and the angel did, revealing the child inside.

God gave people free will so they can choose to follow his orders.

As well as follow and make their own decisions when his will is not known.

 

[Sadib]

You should know the story atleast. Mohammad had a dream of a angel bringing her to him in silk cloth, he said "Uncover her" and the angel did, revealing the child inside.



As well as follow and make their own decisions when his will is not known.

God sent an angel to state his will. What are you talking about?

 

[Waldorf]

The point.

You missed it.

Isaac was never a sacrificial lamb because Abraham was going to be stopped from killing him all along, and Isaac was never "defiled." You're trying to force a comparison that doesn't make sense. Which I suppose is what this thread is built on.

 

[BigLutz]

God sent an angel to state his will. What are you talking about?

And what will is that? There is never the communication of that will?

 

[Sadib]

And what will is that? There is never the communication of that will?

Oh sorry. I forgot that God always explained himself in everything he says.

 

[BigLutz]

Oh sorry. I forgot that God always explained himself in everything he says.

That is true, and taking for a moment to believe this actually happened and it wasn't Mohammad being manipulative, or Mohammad being human and taking a dream he vaguely remembered and superimposing this little girl into it. It is incredibly hard to believe that God's will was for Mohammad to take this little girl and screw her, especially seeing how much sex is seen as a sin by God.

 

[mattj]

*sigh*
why are you here

You bring an interesting point. How do we know what's acceptable now is really the right thing to do? Society is constantly changing. Is gay marriage okay? Is weed okay? Is premarital sex okay? Is hunting death row inmates for sport okay? All of these are subjective, and the answer might change over time.

I don't think anyone here is concerned with whether or not any hot-button-issue is right or wrong. The point of this thread is to ask whether or not Muhammad's Pedophilia disqualifies his preaching. The question that someone like you, who supports islam, needs to answer is whether or not Muhammad's god commanded him to make hot, wet love to a nine year old, AND whether or not that god still thinks its fine to touch little girls. People can then make up their own minds from there. I know your god is looking pretty terrible in this thread, but trying to change the subject doesn't help.

How do you know what morals angels have in the present day? I wasn't aware that they were still visiting Earth.
...
Human morals change over time. Maybe there was nothing wrong with the angel's moral choices.

Whether or not they visit earth, according to Muhammad they left a record of what they believe. If you have some proof that their beliefs changed, please, do share. Otherwise your assumptions are completely baseless, and therefore worthless in this discussion.

I find it ironic that you can openly bash Islam by saying that its founder was only pretending to be a prophet to get a few benefits, but when it comes to your own religion, "it's a private matter."

His religion isn't the subject of this thread. Start a new thread if you feel like bashing individual user's religions.

What kind of horrible God would ask for child sacrifices? I'll let my buddy mattj answer this one.

Sorry, at a loss here. Do you know of any?

Sorry mattj, that is incorrect.

lol

Sorry but not being a Abrahamian I do not believe the Angels stopped him. I see it as far more likely of Abraham being manipulative to get permission to kill his son in the name of God. He wanted to do something that was against the old traditions, and suddenly God would give him what he wanted. It is kind of hard to take seriously a guy who seemingly got the "Okay" from God to sacrifice his son.

I also think that the verse was either heavily mistranslated or outright made up. The person who wrote could very well have had good intentions to write the word of God, but being only human he probably twisted reality in an attempt to sell a few more copies

I guess if you want to believe that. But you don't have any evidence to support it. That hasn't seemed to bother you so far though.

 

[ebilly99]

That is true, and taking for a moment to believe this actually happened and it wasn't Mohammad being manipulative, or Mohammad being human and taking a dream he vaguely remembered and superimposing this little girl into it. It is incredibly hard to believe that God's will was for Mohammad to take this little girl and screw her, especially seeing how much sex is seen as a sin by God.

Sex in marriage is ok, and He married this young girl. I don't understand the problem... Ever read the song of Solomon?

 

[Sadib]

I don't think anyone here is concerned with whether or not any hot-button-issue is right or wrong. The point of this thread is to ask whether or not Muhammad's Pedophilia disqualifies his preaching. The question that someone like you, who supports islam, needs to answer is whether or not Muhammad's god commanded him to make hot, wet love to a nine year old, AND whether or not that god still thinks its fine to touch little girls.

The only way to disqualify his preaching is if he somehow was hypocritical about what he said. In this case it would be marrying a child. Did he tell other people not to marry 6 year old girls? Therefor, attacking Muhammad's preaching based solely on his wife is ad hominem.

Sex in marriage is ok, and He married this young girl. I don't understand the problem... Ever read the song of Solomon?

That answers mattj's second question. Muhammad never said it was okay to molest strangers.

 

[BigLutz]

In this case it would be marrying a child. Did he tell other people not to marry 6 year old girls?

Actually the scary thing is he encouraged it. Asking his followers why they would marry a older woman when they could have a child. I would say that kind of mind set does add further proof to him actually being a pedophile. But more importantly and this is where they scary part comes in, it gives permission for some of those countries that are complete and utter devout followers of Islam to the letter to engage in Pedophilia even in today's world.

 

[ebilly99]

Originally Posted by marioguy
What kind of horrible God would ask for child sacrifices? I'll let my buddy mattj answer this one.
Mattj
Sorry, at a loss here. Do you know of any?

God of the bible. Issac, Jebidaih's Daughter (judges 24), Jesus Christ. That is three, and two of them went through. Just SAYJIN.... Yeahhh

 

[Sadib]

Actually the scary thing is he encouraged it. Asking his followers why they would marry a older woman when they could have a child. I would say that kind of mind set does add further proof to him actually being a pedophile. But more importantly and this is where they scary part comes in, it gives permission for some of those countries that are complete and utter devout followers of Islam to the letter to engage in Pedophilia even in today's world.

I guess he's a hypocrite because his first wife was an old lady.

 

[mattj]

God of the bible. Issac, Jebidaih's Daughter (judges 24), Jesus Christ. That is three, and two of them went through. Just SAYJIN.... Yeahhh

I'm sorry, could you um... quote to all of us where exactly in the Bible it says that God ordained child sacrifice? I'm at a loss to where this is all coming from, because I've read those stories and I haven't been able to find a verse where it says any children were sacrificed. so....

The only way to disqualify his preaching is if he somehow was hypocritical about what he said. In this case it would be marrying a child. Did he tell other people not to marry 6 year old girls? Therefor, attacking Muhammad's preaching based solely on his wife is ad hominem.

ADHOMINIEMEMEIMIEMEME!!!!
Dang man! You repeated some latin words! I guess that makes my argument invalid.
Nah, that's not the only way to disqualify his preaching. If he said he was a holy prophet, and then we find out he likes to penetrate little girls, and then we come to the conclusion that molesting little girls is wrong, I think it's safe to say he wasn't a holy prophet. That's the argument being put forth, his obvious hyprocrisy aside.

That answers mattj's second question. Muhammad never said it was okay to molest strangers.

I fail to see how it answers that question.

 

[CSolarstorm]

The only way to disqualify his preaching is if he somehow was hypocritical about what he said. In this case it would be marrying a child. Did he tell other people not to marry 6 year old girls? Therefor, attacking Muhammad's preaching based solely on his wife is ad hominem.

I already explained how mattj is not using ad hominem.

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2][3][4] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[5]

Ad hominem must be a character attack that is irrelevant to the issue. If it ties in the issue at the moment, then it is not a fallacy.

The issue here is whether or not Muhammad is a pedophile, so arguing that he is a pedophile is relevant to the issue. Second, in the issue of religion and whether or not people should believe Islam, morality and an examination of the character of the representative of a religion is very relevant to discussing a religion and its merits, so I do not believe the OP is using ad hominem either.

400+ posts later, lutz reveals his personal vendetta against Mohammad. Never saw that coming

This is an example of ad hominem. Instead of rebuting what BigLutz says, bel says BigLutz has a (supposed) personal vendetta toward Muhammad, and in doing so attacks the person instead of the argument, the implication being that someone who has a vendetta cannot debate without bias.

 

[Ces]

What exactly is the issue at debate here? Whether Muhammad actually did have intercourse with a young girl or if his actions are excused because it was a different time?

 

[Malanu]

It's more a point of, does his actions reflect badly on his virtue as a religious icon (for lack of a better word), or do the customs of the time excuse his act of pedophilia?

 

[ebilly99]

@Mattj I'm sorry, could you um... quote to all of us where exactly in the Bible it says that God ordained child sacrifice? I'm at a loss to where this is all coming from, because I've read those stories and I haven't been able to find a verse where it says any children were sacrificed. so


NO PROBLEM. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."

Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)


[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son and whosover believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)
I got more if you want but this is already a heck of a wall of text.

 

[mattj]

Although its completely 100% off topic, sure, you'll probably need to post more. I don't see where God condones child sacrifice in any of those verses you posted. I see one verse where a random man happened to sacrifice his daughter. One verse where a man was being tested, but was stopped from sacrificing his son. And several verses that have nothing to do with children being sacrificed. If you want, I could post some random verses too.