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My opinion on HMs (gen I-VI)

Mega Ampharos the Dragon

Electric type Enthusiast
Now, HMs have been notorious for annoying us all throughout the games from Red, Blue, and Yellow, to their last appearance in ORAS. We (usually) had 1 pokemon on our teams that'll never be used in battle and will always be a low level that we've used as an "HM slave". They also take away a slot on your Pokemon instead of having an actually good move. Some people when they started out usually thought that HMs are the strongest moves because they're "Hidden" Machines. I've heard someone from the "Dumb things you did with pokemon as a kid" forum say they had a Charizard with Fly, Cut, Strength and Fissure. Now my opinion is different from everyone else's opinion on these although yes they still do annoy me, they have good in them other than progress through the game.

1. Some HMs were actually good moves
Not all HMs are like this, but the main ones (usually the non-normal ones) can actually be tactically be used in competitions. Fly being basically a Flying type version of Dig, same with Dive just water. Surf was basically a water version of Earthquake. Even Rock Smash can be used since it lowers Defence while dealing fighting damage.
2. Great way to get low level pokemon without False Swipe
Don't have a Pokemon with False Swipe? Don't feel like teaching one of your Pokemon False Swipe and then find that notoriously hard to find Feebas? Well, HM moves (the normal type ones) are the way to go. Since they don't do too much damage, they don't usually OHKO even if you are 10 (maybe 20) levels higher.
3. Great for annoying Sturdy Pokemon
In a trainer battle and your opponent has an annoying Sturdy Pokemon? Well once sturdy activates (and as long as the trainer doesn't use a potion) those HM moves' PP can be wasted instead of your good moves you have.
4. No one will expect it
Now because those weak HM moves aren't made for competition and battles, using them against players will definitely surprise them. Maybe they have a specific pokemon built so the opponents wastes their PPs. With normal type HM moves at your disposal, just dish some damage with those, at least your strong moves' PP aren't being wasted

If you want you can enter your opinions on HMs as long as it isn't just that they were annoying. Plus opinions on (semi-required) TMs like Flash or Secret Power. I really like annoying those Subway bot s with a Flash Chandelure.
 

RoughCoronet0

Dragon lover
I never particularly minded HMs all that much, and am probably one of the minority of people who felt that they actually made it feel like it was just you and your Pokémon exploring and fighting your way through the elements of the region. I do thing they could have found a better middle ground by allowing your Pokémon do use HMs like moves in a similar fashion to how the Let’s Go games handle it, allowing you to call upon your Pokémon to use its skills to tackle such tasks as fly, surfing, smashing rocks, etc without needing to fill up a moveslot to do so.

Grant it I’m not against the inovations of Pokémon services that perform these tasks as I think they still work within the lore of Pokémon. Humans and Pokémon work together to accomplish tasks and many Pokémon even have full time jobs acting as service Pokémon to ferry people around or do construction and such.

I don’t know, maybe in the future Gamefreak will allow us the options to choose how we wish to traverse the land, be it HM moves or Pokémon services or neat gadgets or Pokémon using natural talents befitting of their normal skills.

It’s not something I’m super invested in but that’s my two cents.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I hate how you always have to have a pokémon with the move with you, it limits you so much in team rotation. And you can't even quickly learn the move and then remove it again with the TM move that was there in that slot prior because of the whole "can't forget HM moves" limitation.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
I'll be honest I liked the challenge of having to use HM moves to get around. Sure I do think some of the moves themselves could have been a bit stronger but as a general concept I liked it. I get a lot people didn't like it and wanted to use a team of their choice but I still enjoyed the challenge.
 

TheWanderingMist

Kanae, Keeper of the Gates Emblazoned
They should have just made them TMs in BW since they became infinitely reusable at that point. And also made every Pokemon able to learn all of them except limiting Surf and Fly to Pokemon who should have them.
 

Mega Ampharos the Dragon

Electric type Enthusiast
They should have just made them TMs in BW since they became infinitely reusable at that point. And also made every Pokemon able to learn all of them except limiting Surf and Fly to Pokemon who should have them.
Understandable.

But having them as TMs just doesn't seem right to me. Mostly because we're at exactly 100 TMs and GF is probably not changing that. It'll just waste TMs. If they made HMs TMs back in Gen V, we wouldn't really have a fairy TM unless one of the TMs was changed. One of the complaints I have with SM is the removal of HMs and changing some to TMs.
 

KyogreThunder

Call of Fate
Although I do understand the complaints about HMs taking up moveslots and often being not all that good in battle, I consider every single replacement fot them since Generation VII to be a slap in the face and an insult to the theme of the franchise. The theme of Pokemon is, and has always been, getting to explore the world thanks to your Pokemon, and in Alola, the player character basically has no right to use his/her own Pokemon outside of battle, the saddles and the Riding Wear look utterly ridiculous, Machamp Shove is just plain creepy, and why on earth is Charizard used for flying rather than Pokemon in the Alola Dex (such as Fearow, Skarmory, Salamence or Braviary)?
In Let's Go games, although the player character uses their own Pokemon, Sky Dash and Sea Skim look tacky and unnatural when used by Pikachu and Eevee, and Light Up and Strong Push only really make sense for the former, but not for the latter.
In Sword/Shield...what is even the deal with the posessed Bike again? Then again, we're talking about the games that introduced the ability to change natures (which is basically brainwashing).
I think they should just have you use your own Pokemon to explore the world, but to make field abilities more similiar to Secret Techniques (i.e. without taking up moveslots) on each and every Pokemon that looks like it can learn them, not just a select few. They also should bring back the abilities to scale rocky walls, climb waterfalls, clear whirlpools and dive in the sea.
Finally, even in Black/White, it irked me that only Cut was required to progress once, because it lead to a bunch of NPCs blocking your path instead of natural obstacles. So I think they should make most field abilities mandatory to progress, but only unlocked after winning certain Badges/their equivalents.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
I disliked HM moves for the most part since I disliked having to teach a specific attack to my Pokemon just to get around. Surf and Waterfall weren't so bad since they did a lot of damage and had great accuracy, but HM moves like Rock Smash that did little damage were a pain.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I am very passionate about this topic. I strongly believe that HMs were a major part of the series, and it is an utter shame to see them go. Pokémon is a franchise that is all about partnership with your Pokémon. Working with a Pokémon is more than just using it in battle, or else Pokémon would just be a battle simulator. Being a trainer is all about working with your Pokémon as your partners as you traverse the world, and HMs where the single best way that this outside of battle aspect of Pokémon was demonstrated. With them gone, Pokémon are useful for nothing except battling, and that's just wrong. In Alola, we at least used Pokémon to overcome obstacles, but it wasn't our own, making it mostly meaningless. Arbitrarily unlocking a new Ride Pokémon just isn't the same as using your own Pokémon that you've trained hard to pass obstacles. And now in Galar we don't even use Pokémon at all.

The lack of HMs has also created another major problem. Before, roadblocks were natural and integrated. You couldn't take a certain route because there was a body of water in your way, but without HMs, the games have more and more relied on random NPCs to block paths. Sword and Shield his an all-time low with this, with Team Yell's only meaningful use in the games being glorified roadblocks. It's just sad. You don't get to work with your Pokémon, you don't get to feel the accomplishment of overcoming an obstacle, and the world feels less integrated.

And I'm not saying HMs, as they were, have to come back, but we need some sort of replacement that still let's us use our Pokémon. Whether that's turning HMs into inherent abilities of certain Pokémon, similar to Let's Go, or making it so that HM moves grow stronger as you progress in the game so they don't feel as worthless. We just need something that allows us to work alongside our own Pokémon.
 

Emboar_Rulez

Pokémon Master (Kinda)
Go ahead and get mad at me but I would be glad if they brought hms back as long as they remove the weak ones like cut and rock smash.Or they could give them a power buff.Like if they buffed Rock smash up to at least 60 bp and cut to 70 bp?I think that would be good.
 
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Marku

Martial Arts Pokemon Master
I wouldn't mind if they brought back HMs , a powerbuff would be good to some of the weaker ones. I liked seeing my own pokemon using the moves (Flying, Surf etc)
 

Emboar_Rulez

Pokémon Master (Kinda)
If they made Fly a one turn move and made Rock smash and cut 60bp with a secondary effect then that would be fine.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
If they made Fly a one turn move and made Rock smash and cut 60bp with a secondary effect then that would be fine.
Cut is still far too thinly spread, barely any pokémon can learn it. Which means it forces you to keep on bringing the same pokémon along because for some reason the stupid trees keep on coming back. If every pokémon could learn it and it didn't take a moveslot maybe. Same with Fly, far too thinly spread.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Marku said:
I wouldn't mind if they brought back HMs , a powerbuff would be good to some of the weaker ones. I liked seeing my own pokemon using the moves (Flying, Surf etc)
A power buff would be a decent compromise I think. Rock Smash and Cut would need it the most, and maybe Defog could receive an upgrade in the inevitable D/P remakes.
 

Emboar_Rulez

Pokémon Master (Kinda)
A power buff would be a decent compromise I think. Rock Smash and Cut would need it the most, and maybe Defog could receive an upgrade in the inevitable D/P remakes.
Defog could maybe lower evasiveness 2 stages instead of 1 and Rock smash needs to be at least 60bp and maybe lower speed or attack on the target when used.Cut should be 60 bp but have a high chance to flinch or maybe they could make it go through substitutes and light screen that would be fair I think for 60 bp.IF cut has too high of a base power then it would be too similar to slash.For rock climb they should boost it up to 90-95% accuracy and keep the base power that it has.Strength should raise attack or something when used so its more useful.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
The problem with a power increase on the HMs is that they want to give you powerful moves so early on in the game, so with the system as it is, they would either have to keep some HMs weak, or not give any away early in the game. The idea I had recently to fix this problem (which I mentioned but didn't explain in my previous post) is to have the power of HMs scale as you collect gym badges. Either you the power of the move can vary depending on your badges or your HM can be upgraded to a new and better version of the move. Perhaps Cut becomes Great Cut with a power of 60 after three gym badges and Master Cut with a power of 80 and a high critical hit ratio after seven badges. Maybe even types could change, like Strength transforming into a new Fighting-Type move to make it more useful. I think that would be a really fun way to make HMs not as limiting on your movesets.
 

Emboar_Rulez

Pokémon Master (Kinda)
I don’t think if they gave rock smash a upgrade to 60bp itwould be too op if you got it early in the game if they upgraded cut though that might be too op considering it’s normally 50bp
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Doesn't matter how powerful it is. I can't even count the number of times I went to pick berries in Omega Ruby only to have to go back to the Pokémon Centre because nothing in my party could learn Cut at the time. It's just annoying, it serves no purpose other than to limit your team rotation options (which goes against the "gotta catch them all" goal), and rocks and trees magically coming back without any other trainer ever being around to clear them or any kind of government around to keep roads open doesn't make any sense either. How does anyone else in this world who isn't like Champion tier enough to get gym badges get around to the next town?

If you absolutely have to have your own pokémon do it, make them able to do it from the box and prevent it from costing you moveslots like Latios fly in ORAS. Other than that, just no.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I don’t think if they gave rock smash a upgrade to 60bp itwould be too op if you got it early in the game if they upgraded cut though that might be too op considering it’s normally 50bp
Probably not, but I'm not sure a 10 base power increase would make people much more fond of the move.

Doesn't matter how powerful it is. I can't even count the number of times I went to pick berries in Omega Ruby only to have to go back to the Pokémon Centre because nothing in my party could learn Cut at the time.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't have something. Cut is very generic in what can learn it. Admittedly, it probably should be able to be learned by any Pokémon with any sort of sharp feature, and isn't for some reason, but it's still a very wide range.

It's just annoying, it serves no purpose other than to limit your team rotation options (which goes against the "gotta catch them all" goal)
Or you can look at it as an additional factor to consider when building your team. As I said in earlier post, it shouldn't be only about battling.

and rocks and trees magically coming back without any other trainer ever being around to clear them or any kind of government around to keep roads open doesn't make any sense either. How does anyone else in this world who isn't like Champion tier enough to get gym badges get around to the next town?
That's just video game logic. You'd be hard pressed to find any video games that don't have similar issues. It is most certainly not something that Pokémon should be blamed for, unless you want to accuse all video games of the same poor logic.

Not to mention, trees and rocks reappearing is no different from stuff like berries or items reappearing, which I doubt are things you would complain about.

If you absolutely have to have your own pokémon do it, make them able to do it from the box and prevent it from costing you moveslots like Latios fly in ORAS. Other than that, just no.
You just complained about logical inconsistencies, and now you want Pokémon tucked away in your PC to be able to interact with the world around you? That aside, while I can agree that the not taking up move slots thing could be an improvement, it would be pretty meaningless if your random Pokémon you caught and never put on your team ended up getting you pass all the obstacles. Defeats the purpose of using your Pokémon on hand to overcome obstacles.
 
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