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Nanu's Grand Trial! The Awakening of Lycanroc! (1020)

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
:confused: apparently wanting to see a character own strong Pokémon equates to being binded by social taboos for males not to express emotions. Comparing apples & oranges here honestly :rolleyes:

I still can't believe Lizardon never returned to help Satoshi after Satoshi so rudely kicked him off his team. What a dick!
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
I still can't believe Lizardon never returned to help Satoshi after Satoshi so rudely kicked him off his team. What a dick!
I don't know what you're trying to get at. A straightforward response would be more helpful than painfully obvious sarcasm
 

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
I don't know what you're trying to get at. A straightforward response would be more helpful than painfully obvious sarcasm

Your implication was that Lugarugan not going to Masara Town to sit on a ranch all day doing nothing meant that he could never come back to help Satoshi. Lizardon proved that one could indeed not go to Masara Town and still help Satoshi whenever the series director felt like it.

Sarcasm for sarcasm, buddy.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Your implication was that Lugarugan not going to Masara Town to sit on a ranch all day doing nothing meant that he could never come back to help Satoshi. Lizardon proved that one could indeed not go to Masara Town and still help Satoshi whenever the series director felt like it.

Sarcasm for sarcasm, buddy.

I'm arguing that it's better for it to go to Pallet to be more "efficient", not the only option. Wouldn't argue such a case knowing that one of his powerhouses was called from a non Pallet Town location. And I never used sarcasm as I was giving examples of why others had this mindset. Would've helped if you responded to the post that you were referring to instead of one on a different topic ;)

Yes because once Lycanroc gets to Oak's he's just going to sit there. Not like he can't train, meet Ash's other Pokémon, or simply enjoy existing. It'd be doing virtually the same thing if it was watching over a Rockruff/Lycanroc pack: socializing & training/teaching with the others.
 
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Lord Starfish

Fond of owls
Having him just sending his Pokémon back to the lab does make it more convenient for the writers to easily bring them back without having to explain it somehow... but at the same time, let's just think back to XY with Gekkouga's release. Can you really say that having it just get sent back to the ranch to sit under a tree meditating or chilling with the rest of the team is a better ending than for it to go off with a legendary Pokémon to help save the world? I mean a lot of people were angry with that whole situation, but what was Satoshi supposed to do, just tell Zygarde "Heck no, my Gekkouga is way too awesome so I'm keeping it. Bye!"? Whatever happened, he was never going to bring Gekkouga with him to Alola anyway, so giving a plot-related reason why it had to leave was probably more respectful to the both of them than just having it get left in Okido's lab the way the rest of his Kalos team was.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Can you really say that having it just get sent back to the ranch to sit under a tree meditating or chilling with the rest of the team is a better ending than for it to go off with a legendary Pokémon to help save the world? I mean a lot of people were angry "Heck no, my Gekkouga is way too awesome so I'm keeping it. Bye!"?
No, they wanted Greninja to continue traveling with Ash, even in Alola, sweeping those tapu guardians & trial captains with the awesome Ash-Greninja transformations, and tell Zygarde "No! I OWN Greninja and we saved the world together. If it wasn't for me you would have stayed as a Team Flare's slave, so you don't deserve the Pokemon. And the evil roots were all because of you and your brother, so you fix your mess by yourselves. Screw you!". I'm pretty sure those fans would drool with that kind of scenario.
 
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Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
It's the easiest thing in the world for Gekkouga to sense that Satoshi needs him, hop on Puni-chan and fly to whatever region he is in should he need to come back. Or heck, let's say Satoshi misses Lugarugan and wants him fight with him again. All you need to do is reveal that Lugarugan is with Satoshi again and have him say "I asked Lugarugan to help for a short while!" It doesn't need to be complex. Nobody needs to burst a blood vessel over anything.
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
Why is everybody talking about Ash releasing Lycanroc at this point? There has been no foreshadowing yet of Ash releasing Lycanroc. Just because Ash had released Greninja and Goodra in XY, doesn't automatically mean he'll release Lycanroc. He may ultimately release Poipole because it is an ultra beast, but we'll just have to wait and see.
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
No, they wanted Greninja to continue traveling with Ash, even in Alola, sweeping those tapu guardians & trial captains with the awesome Ash-Greninja transformations, and tell Zygarde "No! I OWN Greninja and we saved the world together. If it wasn't for me you would have stayed as a Team Flare's slave, so you don't deserve the Pokemon. And the evil roots were all because of you and your brother, so you fix your mess by yourselves. Screw you!". I'm pretty sure those fans would drool with that kind of scenario.

I don't think Ash would ever stoop to that level. Even if he's conflicted over having to say goodbye to one of his most trusted Pokémon, he'd at least know it's for the best. Plus, he already knows that it's Team Flare's fault for all the roots, not either Zygarde's.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I don't think Ash would ever stoop to that level. Even if he's conflicted over having to say goodbye to one of his most trusted Pokémon, he'd at least know it's for the best. Plus, he already knows that it's Team Flare's fault for all the roots, not either Zygarde's.
Yeah, I know. I based from some fans on YouTube that would like him to act violent/edgier, even putting an angry possessed Ash from the Hoopa movie as their avatars, writing stuff like crushing the Noibat egg during its debut so that he didn't need to train noob/baby Pokemon.

And the dialogue I just wrote kinda give me the DMC: Devil May Cry/Injustice 2 vibes, where the protagonists & deuteragonists were teaming/trusting/believing each other to defeat the powerful main antagonists from destroying their worlds, then suddenly they turned each other because of their differences on how to deal with the aftermaths.
 
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andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know. I based from some fans on YouTube that would like him to act violent/edgier, even putting an angry possessed Ash from the Hoopa movie as their avatars, writing stuff like crushing the Noibat egg during its debut so that he didn't need to train noob/baby Pokemon.

And the dialogue I just wrote kinda give me the DMC: Devil May Cry/Injustice 2 vibes, where the protagonists & deuteragonists were teaming/trusting/believing each other to defeat the powerful main antagonists from destroying their worlds, then suddenly they turned each other because of their differences on how to deal with the aftermaths.

I know. I didn't intend to say this against you, but the people who wanted Ash to keep Greninja at all costs. I was just using your quote for context.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I disagree. Ash has always had a temper, especially when he is personally insulted or his skills as a Trainer are insulted—both of which happened in this episode. Nanu kept telling him he was a worthless Trainer who wasn't good enough for his Lycanroc, and that his friendship mentality was "needless." He really pushed all of Ash's buttons. On top of that, Ash was being cautious, because he knew if he wasn't careful, he could easily lose the match. His losing his temper the way he did was actually sort of expected.
Actually its completely out of character when we take Ash’s growth in DP into account. A big part of the Ash-Paul dynamic was that Paul would play mind games with Ash preventing him from battling soundly which is a major factor in why he lost so badly in their first full battle. Even in the SL Paul’s battle psychology was noticeably affecting Ash during the early stages; however, Ash was able to persevere and ultimately not let the mind games affect his judgement any further. Ash also understands that a trainer’s attitude rubs off on the Pokémon greatly affecting their battling capabilities (he tells Sawyer this in XY 75) not to mention in the later parts of XY Ash finally overcame a long term issue of his by being able to maintain total composure even when the going got tough which he had difficulty doing in DP and even early XY despite his skill in those series.

With all of this in mind it makes no sense that Nanu’s provocation would have any significant affect on Ash’s battling judgement especially when they were a far cry away from the nuance and intricacies of Paul’s battle psychology. Not to mention that Ash was just straight-up performing poorly as a trainer this episode; for starters why didn’t he combo Rock Throw and Accelrock such that Lycanroc struck with Accelrock during or immediately after the time interval when Krookodile was fending off the rock with its tail which is what it uses Counter with (this would have been a far better way to beat Krookodile than lol Lycanroc too fast, and I am 100% certain that DP or XY Ash would’ve come up with this solution if they were put in the same position). Matter of fact if Rock Throw wasn’t working as effective long range move why didn’t Ash try Stone Edge on Krookodile? Oh right because he forgot... wait what!? Why on earth did Ash forget that his Lycanroc learnt Stone Edge 2 episodes ago!? Seriously that has got to be up there with some of the stuff he pulled in OS and BW as far as trainer incompetency goes. It’s particularly bad when you realize all of the damage that Lycanroc could’ve avoided taking from Sableye had Ash just remembered the move since Stone Edge practically eviscerated it (Lycanroc probably wouldn’t have even needed a Sitrus Berry if Ash battled properly from the start).

I’m also really not sure about the whole “Ash didn’t notice that Lycanroc could already control its red-eye powers” since Ash is supposed to be a trainer who is exceptionally in-tune with his Pokémon though maybe I can let that slide since the association of red-eyes = Lycanroc won’t listen seemed quite entrenched in him at that point. Anyways the only decent tactic that Ash had the whole battle was at the end where he countered BHE with CC and used the openning resulting from Persian being distracted by the falling debris in order to land the finishing blow though with how poorly he performed otherwise, I have a very difficult time acknowledging this person as the same guy who traveled through Sinnoh and Kalos. Maybe this was an off day for him though if the poor performances become a reoccurring trend then the witnessed SM Ash is joining the witnessed BW Ash in mirror verse land for me. At least Lycanroc was a badass this episode cementing his spot in Ash’s TOP 6 (a.k.a GPICSS is now GPLICS with Snorlax kicked out).
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
I have a very difficult time acknowledging this person as the same guy who traveled through Sinnoh and Kalos.
You'd enjoy the pokémon anime a lot more if you dropped this line of thinking, because for all intents and purposes, they're not, and treating OS-DP, BW-XY, and SM as three different Ash Ketchum stories, your headaches won't be as severe

"But they reference-"

So do a lot of other shows. Your point?
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
You'd enjoy the pokémon anime a lot more if you dropped this line of thinking, because for all intents and purposes, they're not, and treating OS-DP, BW-XY, and SM as three different Ash Ketchum stories, your headaches won't be as severe

"But they reference-"

So do a lot of other shows. Your point?
Yeah please don’t lump the abomination known as BW Ash with XY Ash who was Ash’s peak as both a trainer and person. In terms of characterization and trainer skill XY Ash is the true successor of DP Ash. This is 1 of my old posts on the matter:

XY Ash felt like he picked up right where DP Ash left off. Even early on we see him using eerly similar tactics like using Froakie’s frubbles in novel ways like how he also used Buizel’s flotation sack in an unorthodox manner, and also his RT/DM/AS climb is an extension of the “rock climbing” that Pikachu did in Ash’s Sinnoh League battle with Paul. In terms of character, DP Ash while mature still had quite the temper especially when he thought someone was being incompetent (e.g. Dawn when they battle the tag champs the first time) or when someone’s views vastly diverged from his own (e.g. Paul with respect to philosophy on raising Pokémon) whereas XY Ash was considerably more mellow and rarely let his temper get the better of him. XY Ash was also far more accepting of contrasting views than DP Ash was. Back to the Paul example; Ash at first couldn’t stand Paul’s views on Pokémon raising though by the end of DP he had come to accept that those methods were also a legitimate way of raising Pokémon and that not everyone has to go about it like him. Similarly in XYZ Ash is familiar with Alain being highly motivated by strength yet eventhough Ash himself faltered when he began prioritizing strength too highly instead of love, Ash never chastised Alain on the matter since at this point he understands that just because he isn’t compatible with certain viewpoints, it doesn’t mean that other people can’t benefit from having those views either.

DP Ash while a brilliant tactician was very prone to anxiety when the going got tough which would hinder his thinking speed and negatively affect his Pokémon. This can be seen in his battle with Conway where he showed visible panic against Trick Room, easily lost 2 of his Pokémon, never properly countered the move and only won because of Gible’s unpredictability. Contrast this with Valerie where against Trick Room he maintained his composure, quickly thought of counter strategies for both of his Pokémon and won the battle on pure merit (he was unquestionably the more skilled trainer). While he ultimately persevered in his SL battle with Paul, Paul was initially able to effectively exploit this weakness of Ash’s during the early stages of their match by countering him every time he had a major burst of ingenuity. Even in the initial Kalos gym battles this flaw remains. Against Viola we see Ash visibly distraught after his first loss since he wasn’t able to quickly think up counters to the strategies Viola used for their rematch. Even as far as Ramos we see Ash visibly anxious when his back was against and he was only able to regain his composure after encouragement from Pikachu. After this point though Ash no longer has this flaw and understands that having such an attitude will both negatively affect his judgment and his Pokémon (he even gives Sawyer advice on this in XY 75).

Even DP Ash was never able to competitively battle with the E4 with Bertha only using their battle to test and develop Ash’s observation, and she destroyed him the moment she upped the difficulty after which she told him how he still had a long way to go, as well as Flint’s Infernape casually stomping Buizel and Infernape, only getting somewhat serious against Pikachu and yet Pikachu didn’t manage to make F-Ape “sell” with any of its hits. Then we have Paul who was meant to be considered as Ash’s equal yet the Sinnoh Champion gave him a curbstomp to end all curbstomps. In XY it’s the same at first with Diantha effortlessly wrecking Ash and Pikachu though then... it happened! In XYZ 25 Ash showed for the first time in over 900 episodes that he could in fact battle competitively with trainers of the highest lvl and could realistically beat the E4s and Champions someday. In the Kalos League he had his best placement yet as runner up and while he technically was also 2nd best in Sinnoh, he got owned 6-2 by Tobias whereas in Kalos he lost in a very close 6-5 after putting up a valiant fight against the only non-E4/Champion trainer in the entire series who was able to defeat the Ace of an E4 Pokémon that too the Mega variant which would be substantially stronger (with a monster like that as an Ace Alain in all likelihood would destroy both Tobias’s Darkrai, and Latios and do the same to the rest of his team unless he had some secret weapon that’s a lot stronger than those 2 were) a.k.a Ash’s Alain feat > Ash’s Tobias feat. Ash also flat-out gave his best performance in terms of skill till date against Alain (https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ashs-goat-performance-as-a-trainer.662645/) . Finally in the last episode of DP, Ash looks in awe at the high lvl battle that Cynthia and Flint were having, and even vicariously projects himself on to Flint in order to imagine what a battle of that caliber would feel like. Well in XYZ he didn’t have to imagine anyomore; with his Ash-Greninja being in the Champion Ace/E4 Mega Ace spectrum and Alain’s Mega Charizard X being the strongest Pokémon in existence barring Champion Mega Aces and maybe Lysandre’s Mega Red Gyarados, Ash and Alain’s climactic match in the Kalos League Finals was conducted at a decisviely higher lvl!!!

XY truly was the culmination of Ash Ketchum as both a trainer and a human being; at the end of XYZ he already had both the skill and mentality to be a top tier trainer on par with even the E4s and Champions, and all that’s left to do is train up his Pokémon.

As far as I’m concerned the witnessed OS - DP and XY occur in the main continuity while the witnessed BW occurs in 1 of the near numerous mirror verses established in XY 37; however, there is a “true” unseen BW that occurred between DP and XY in the main continuity that is similar to the witnessed BW except that in this version Ash is in-line with his age, height, character and trainer skill. I’ll decide whether SM gets the “mirror verse treatment” at the end of this series though if he continues the trend set in this episode then I’ll have no other choice.

Also you might find this thread to be interesting: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/connections-between-the-different-iterations-of-ash.662599/.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Yeah please don’t lump the abomination known as BW Ash with XY Ash who was Ash’s peak as both a trainer and person. In terms of characterization and trainer skill XY Ash is the true successor of DP Ash. This is 1 of my old posts on the matter:



As far as I’m concerned the witnessed OS - DP and XY occur in the main continuity while the witnessed BW occurs in 1 of the near numerous mirror verses established in XY 37; however, there is a “true” unseen BW that occurred between DP and XY in the main continuity that is similar to the witnessed BW except that in this version Ash is in-line with his age, height, character and trainer skill. I’ll decide whether SM gets the “mirror verse treatment” at the end of this series though if he continues the trend set in this episode then I’ll have no other choice.

Also you might find this thread to be interesting: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/connections-between-the-different-iterations-of-ash.662599/.
just one thing, there's no need to call it a trend already, I think it'd have been better to say "if this starts a trend". Anyways, my headcanon is that the time-space stuff that happened during the TG arc created a split in the timeline, 1 resulted in BW/XY (let's just say ash got brain damage during zekrom's attack and recovered after jumping off of the plane's stairs at the beginning of XY), while the other resulted in SM (some inconsistencies in what ash remembers could be dealt away as amnesia from the slapstick he's been suffering, especially early on in the series, though IDK how I'd explain electroball)
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
just one thing, there's no need to call it a trend already, I think it'd have been better to say "if this starts a trend". Anyways, my headcanon is that the time-space stuff that happened during the TG arc created a split in the timeline, 1 resulted in BW/XY (let's just say ash got brain damage during zekrom's attack and recovered after jumping off of the plane's stairs at the beginning of XY), while the other resulted in SM (some inconsistencies in what ash remembers could be dealt away as amnesia from the slapstick he's been suffering, especially early on in the series, though IDK how I'd explain electroball)
Well I meant that if this episode results in a trend of poor performances rather than the trend already being there. That’s fine; how does your headcanon account for Ash’s growth spurt over the course of a plain ride (his features are noticeably sharper and he’s also significantly taller which can objectively be determined by measuring his height relative to Jessie in episodes animated by Masaki Iwane)? If SM Ash cleans his act and performances well in the last grand trial and the league then I’ll probably just assume that this is just him in “vacation mode” rather than some AU variant of him.
 

lolipiece

Pictured: what browsing Serebii does to a person
Staff member
Moderator
Actually its completely out of character when we take Ash’s growth in DP into account. A

The writers of this show do not care about what happened in previous series. This show is not written with that in mind, and I doubt several series are.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
In fairness just because a character overcomes a flaw in one instance does not mean it will NEVER be a problem again. That's not how it works in real life. You learn to better control it through experience, but ultimately it's still there. If not we would all end up very boring people.

They kept a consistency to some degree, Ash is not temperamental in Alola, you have to REALLY get under his skin to anger him. Also Nanu was a different opponent from Paul, more a sneaky heckler than just bluntly contemptuous.
 
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