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Nanu's Grand Trial! The Awakening of Lycanroc! (1020)

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Well I meant that if this episode results in a trend of poor performances rather than the trend already being there. That’s fine; how does your headcanon account for Ash’s growth spurt over the course of a plain ride (his features are noticeably sharper and he’s also significantly taller which can objectively be determined by measuring his height relative to Jessie in episodes animated by Masaki Iwane)? If SM Ash cleans his act and performances well in the last grand trial and the league then I’ll probably just assume that this is just him in “vacation mode” rather than some AU variant of him.
Eh, it'd go the same way as electro ball in SM in this headcanon(as in, a relatively minor inconsistence)
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
The writers of this show do not care about what happened in previous series. This show is not written with that in mind, and I doubt several series are.
See here you’re objectively wrong when it comes to OS - DP since there’s very explicit connectivity between series not only in event timeline, but also in terms of Ash’s progression as a person and trainer. I could go into detail about Ash’s development though to give more to the point examples Ash’s Johto League endeavors were acknowledged in early AG by Max and better still Ash’s conquering of the Battle Frontier was acknowledged in order to further the story between him and Paul. With XY it’s more debatable, but there’s a very good case for it being a continuation of DP in terms of how Ash was portrayed as a trainer (e.g. he reached “TOP 2” with only his regional team when in Sinnoh he was “TOP 4” though really the 2nd best trainer in the league while using reserves).
In fairness just because a character overcomes a flaw in one instance does not mean it will NEVER be a problem again. That's not how it works in real life. You learn to better control it through experience, but ultimately it's still there. If not we would all end up very boring people.

They kept a consistency to some degree, Ash is not temperamental in Alola, you have to REALLY get under his skin to anger him. Also Nanu was a different opponent from Paul, more a sneaky heckler than just bluntly contemptuous.

Except... it isn’t just “one” instance. By later XY Ash had become very adept at maintaining his composure when the going got tough and I’m sorry but comparing Nanu’s taunts to Paul’s intricate mind games is absurdly laughable. You’re right in that they aren’t the same... Paul’s battle psychology tested Ash’s nerves at a much higher lvl than Nanu ever could. Based on this battle SM Ash isn’t able to handle pressure and adversity as effectively as DP and especially XY Ash. It might be that this was an off day for him though if his later displays are comparable to the pathetic mess (by DP/XY Ash standards) we witnessed in this battle then SM Ash has no business whatsoever being compared to DP or XY Ash in terms of trainer skill hence I wouldn’t count SM in Ash’s OS -> AG -> DP -> XY progression ergo he would get the mirror verse treatment in that case as far as I’m concerned.

Also I know that you have similar views to VoltacklingPika in that Ash is apparently the ultimate passive character (a.k.a it’s not Ash whose changed; it’s the environment around him that’s causing him to act so differently) as a means of circumventing Ash’s supposed character inconsistencies especially those in BW and SM. I’ll just be frank; I don’t accept that for 1 second when it comes to BW (I’ve already argued why BW Ash contradicts his core values as a character) and for SM I’m more open to the environmental influence idea though I still have issues like Ash’s whole “cheating” stunt and Ash’s cockiness when Misty gave him a sincere complement (DP or XY Ash would’ve taken it in stride) though what’ll really matter for me is how well they handle his league battles. He doesn’t need to win but as long as he at least makes the finals and has respectable showings throughout I’ll be far more forgiving of SM Ash’s inconsistencies till date.
 
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mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
See here you’re objectively wrong when it comes to OS - DP since there’s very explicit connectivity between series not only in event timeline, but also in terms of Ash’s progression as a person and trainer. I could go into detail about Ash’s development though to give more to the point examples Ash’s Johto League endeavors were acknowledged in early AG by Max and better still Ash’s conquering of the Battle Frontier was acknowledged in order to further the story between him and Paul. With XY it’s more debatable, but there’s a very good case for it being a continuation of DP in terms of how Ash was portrayed as a trainer (e.g. he reached “TOP 2” with only his regional team when in Sinnoh he was “TOP 4” though really the 2nd best trainer in the league while using reserves).


Except... it isn’t just “one” instance. By later XY Ash had become very adept at maintaining his composure when the going got tough and I’m sorry but comparing Nanu’s taunts to Paul’s intricate mind games is absurdly laughable. You’re right in that they aren’t the same... Paul’s battle psychology tested Ash’s nerves at a much higher lvl than Nanu ever could. Based on this battle SM Ash isn’t able to handle pressure and adversity as effectively as DP and especially XY Ash. It might be that this was an off day for him though if his later displays are comparable to the pathetic mess (by DP/XY Ash standards) we witnessed in this battle then SM Ash has no business whatsoever being compared to DP or XY Ash in terms of trainer skill hence I wouldn’t count SM in Ash’s OS -> AG -> DP -> XY progression ergo he would get the mirror verse treatment in that case as far as I’m concerned.

Also I know that you have similar views to VoltacklingPika in that Ash is apparently the ultimate passive character (a.k.a it’s not Ash whose changed; it’s the environment around him that’s causing him to act so differently) as a means of circumventing Ash’s supposed character inconsistencies especially those in BW and SM. I’ll just be frank; I don’t accept that for 1 second when it comes to BW (I’ve already argued why BW Ash contradicts his core values as a character) and for SM I’m more open to the environmental influence idea though I still have issues like Ash’s whole “cheating” stunt and Ash’s cockiness when Misty gave him a sincere complement (DP or XY Ash would’ve taken it in stride) though what’ll really matter for me is how well they handle his league battles. He doesn’t need to win but as long as he at least makes the finals and has respectable showings throughout I’ll be far more forgiving of SM Ash’s inconsistencies till date.
for me it'll be the poni trials what completely decides where he stands (unless the league has a relatively impressive/pathetic showcase), as the final gym are usually his best skill showcases until that point
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
for me it'll be the poni trials what completely decides where he stands (unless the league has a relatively impressive/pathetic showcase), as the final gym are usually his best skill showcases until that point
Yeah agreed that his Poni trial will also play an important role in determining where he stands though though I don’t agree Ash is generally at most impressive in terms of skill in the last gym battles. In DP and XY for example I’d argue that in terms of pure skill (so no bond power induced transformations like special Blaze and A-G) Ash’s battles with Fantina (a.k.a counter-shield the battle) and Olympia (a.k.a best double battle in the series) respectively were his best gym battles. Even in BW I’d rate Brycen as his best gym battle performance (it’s the only BW gym battle where I thought Ash showed signs of his DP self). Johto and Hoenn are the ones where yeah I’d agree that vs Clair and vs Juan were his best gym battle showings in those series. Given that SM Ash hasn’t really had a standout gym battle performance in SM (I think his best skill feat to date in SM was actually against Misty), you’re right that the Poni trial needs to deliver from a tactical standpoint if SM Ash is to be ranked on the higher end of Ash’s incarnations in terms of skill.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
So, Nanu is confirmed as the best troll in the anime, blatantly stating he was trying to lure Ash into Counter.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
In fairness just because a character overcomes a flaw in one instance does not mean it will NEVER be a problem again. That's not how it works in real life. You learn to better control it through experience, but ultimately it's still there. If not we would all end up very boring people.
This right here. Ash may have grown, both as a character and as a Trainer, to the point where he is not so easily affected by mind games and is able to keep a level head even when the going gets tough, but that does not mean there won't be times when his shell will crack. And this was one of those times. Nanu insulted Ash personally and as a Trainer, and he snapped.

No matter how hard one struggles to overcome one's faults, growth and maturity cannot always erase all of those faults. One will keep struggling to overcome one's faults. Ash is inherently proud, and does not take it well when he is personally insulted or when his skills as a Trainer are insulted. On top of that, as I said in my earlier post, Ash was being cautious, knowing that he could easily lose the match. All of that pressure made him more sensitive to Nanu's heckling.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
This right here. Ash may have grown, both as a character and as a Trainer, to the point where he is not so easily affected by mind games and is able to keep a level head even when the going gets tough, but that does not mean there won't be times when his shell will crack. And this was one of those times. Nanu insulted Ash personally and as a Trainer, and he snapped.

No matter how hard one struggles to overcome one's faults, growth and maturity cannot always erase all of those faults. One will keep struggling to overcome one's faults. Ash is inherently proud, and does not take it well when he is personally insulted or when his skills as a Trainer are insulted. On top of that, as I said in my earlier post, Ash was being cautious, knowing that he could easily lose the match. All of that pressure made him more sensitive to Nanu's heckling.

Yeah, I know some consider it regression, but I like they've remembered in SM that Ash is still allowed to have some of his old flaws while still demonstrating his development in moderating them. He's still a far gentler and more open minded character than he was when the anime started, but we still do see glimmers of his old side occur from time to time to remind us he is still Ash, without making it look like he never learns from his mistakes (besides recklessness, which in fairness even XY Ash had zero will power against).

I am hoping this direction sticks not just with Ash but with other characters too. I want Lillie to develop for example, but I'd hate if she lost ALL her trademark timidness and naivete, or if Kiawe lost all his passionate temper. Those are not just flaws, they're foibles, part of what makes a character unique and fallible and thus sympathetic. If anything good qualities can branch out from said foibles to make them complex characters instead of just blandly competent and well behaved.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Yeah, I know some consider it regression, but I like they've remembered in SM that Ash is still allowed to have some of his old flaws while still demonstrating his development in moderating them. He's still a far gentler and more open minded character than he was when the anime started, but we still do see glimmers of his old side occur from time to time to remind us he is still Ash, without making it look like he never learns from his mistakes (besides recklessness, which in fairness even XY Ash had zero will power against).

I am hoping this direction sticks not just with Ash but with other characters too. I want Lillie to develop for example, but I'd hate if she lost ALL her trademark timidness and naivete, or if Kiawe lost all his passionate temper. Those are not just flaws, they're foibles, part of what makes a character unique and fallible and thus sympathetic. If anything good qualities can branch out from said foibles to make them complex characters instead of just blandly competent and well behaved.
my problem with this episode (choreography aside) isn't that ash snapped, but that he was like "NUUUUH! ME GUD TRANER! ME LUGARUGARUGARUGARUGARUGAN'S PERTNOR!", so was more of him throwing a childish tantrum
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
my problem with this episode (choreography aside) isn't that ash snapped, but that he was like "NUUUUH! ME GUD TRANER! ME LUGARUGARUGARUGARUGARUGAN'S PERTNOR!", so was more of him throwing a childish tantrum
I thought that was meant to be some sort of exaggeration to show Ash’s spirit for the battle. It’s pretty obvious he wanted to win this time taking into consideration his previous loss to Nanu.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
This right here. Ash may have grown, both as a character and as a Trainer, to the point where he is not so easily affected by mind games and is able to keep a level head even when the going gets tough, but that does not mean there won't be times when his shell will crack. And this was one of those times. Nanu insulted Ash personally and as a Trainer, and he snapped.
Yeah you’re either grossly underrating Paul’s battle psychology or grossly overrating Nanu’s taunting. Nanu’s trash talking has no business being in the same league as Paul’s mind games, so yeah it is extremely jarring that Ash was able to ultimately persevere against Paul during the end of DP yet cracked against Nanu so easily to such a bad extent that he gave such a pitiful performance as a trainer (at least by DP/XY standards). Also this view of yours is unfalsifiable (a.k.a you can try to justify almost any supposed character regression with “no one can fully overcome their faults”). The problem is that this doesn’t align with the narrative; throughout DP and even sometimes in early XY Ash was constantly having trouble staying composed when things didn't go his way or when there wasn’t any immediate solution though by mid XY (around the 5th gym) that issue was gone and from then on difficult battle situations never caused Ash to loose his composure never mind make the horrendous mistakes he made in this battle since by this point Ash understood that a trainer’s attitude rubs off on their Pokémon (he tell this to Sawyer in XY 75) hence if he gets emotionally riled up it will make his Pokémon perform worse.

No matter how hard one struggles to overcome one's faults, growth and maturity cannot always erase all of those faults. One will keep struggling to overcome one's faults. Ash is inherently proud, and does not take it well when he is personally insulted or when his skills as a Trainer are insulted. On top of that, as I said in my earlier post, Ash was being cautious, knowing that he could easily lose the match. All of that pressure made him more sensitive to Nanu's heckling.
Yeah it is a consistency problem when a fault shows up again due to a given issue when previously you overcame that fault against a far more difficult issue. An Ash with his OS -> AG -> DP -> XY progression would've just let his actions (a.k.a skills as a trainer) speak for themselves and wouldn’t have let the pressure effect his trainer skill so drastically (especially since has handled far greater pressure successfully in the past).

Look I don’t care if you or DatsRight are okay with or even like the direction of SM Ash in this episode but please don’t tell me that this direction makes sense with respect to who Ash had become in DP and XY. I hope this was a 1 time occurrence and that Ash does better in the final grand trial and league though if not then the witnessed SM is getting the mirror verse treatment from me.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Yeah you’re either grossly underrating Paul’s battle psychology or grossly overrating Nanu’s taunting. Nanu’s trash talking has no business being in the same league as Paul’s mind games, so yeah it is extremely jarring that Ash was able to ultimately persevere against Paul during the end of DP yet cracked against Nanu so easily to such a bad extent that he gave such a pitiful performance as a trainer (at least by DP/XY standards). Also this view of yours is unfalsifiable (a.k.a you can try to justify almost any supposed character regression with “no one can fully overcome their faults”). The problem is that this doesn’t align with the narrative; throughout DP and even sometimes in early XY Ash was constantly having trouble staying composed when things didn't go his way or when there wasn’t any immediate solution though by mid XY (around the 5th gym) that issue was gone and from then on difficult battle situations never caused Ash to loose his composure never mind make the horrendous mistakes he made in this battle since by this point Ash understood that a trainer’s attitude rubs off on their Pokémon (he tell this to Sawyer in XY 75) hence if he gets emotionally riled up it will make his Pokémon perform worse.


Yeah it is a consistency problem when a fault shows up again due to a given issue when previously you overcame that fault against a far more difficult issue. An Ash with his OS -> AG -> DP -> XY progression would've just let his actions (a.k.a skills as a trainer) speak for themselves and wouldn’t have let the pressure effect his trainer skill so drastically (especially since has handled far greater pressure successfully in the past).

Look I don’t care if you or DatsRight are okay with or even like the direction of SM Ash in this episode but please don’t tell me that this direction makes sense with respect to who Ash had become in DP and XY. I hope this was a 1 time occurrence and that Ash does better in the final grand trial and league though if not then the witnessed SM is getting the mirror verse treatment from me.
Ash wasn't just dealing with Nanu's taunts and insults. He was also worried about losing control of Lycanroc—a legitimate concern. He was under a lot of pressure, and that made him snap. Yes, he should know by now that getting emotionally riled up adversely affects his Pokémon's performance. Yes, he has learned by now not to lose his composure in battle. However, even if someone has managed to overcome his faults, it's still possible to temporarily regress under certain circumstances. That's realistically human. The chips just happened to fall in just the right way to make Ash snap this time.

You may not think that Ash snapping made sense, but I don't think you have the right to tell me or anyone else that we are wrong when the issue of whether or not Ash's snapping makes sense in these circumstances is a matter of personal opinion, not objective fact.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Ash wasn't just dealing with Nanu's taunts and insults. He was also worried about losing control of Lycanroc—a legitimate concern.
And he should have known to trust his Pokémon better since again Ash should know that the attitude of the trainer reflects on the Pokémon. To make a comparison look at how DP Ash handled Infernape activating Blaze during the Volkner battle. In prior instances the activation of Blaze would result in destructive outbursts (that put Lycanroc’s “red-eye mode “ fits to shame) and everyone barring Ash (including Pikachu) were “legitimately” worried; however, Ash showed full confidence that Infernape could control the transformation and Infernape responded in kind. Similarly an Ash with his DP/XY expereinces would’ve had confidence in Lycanroc being able to control himself especially since they had just undergone major training for that very purpose.

He was under a lot of pressure, and that made him snap.
Nothing compared to the pressure he faced against Paul.

Yes, he should know by now that getting emotionally riled up adversely affects his Pokémon's performance. Yes, he has learned by now not to lose his composure in battle. However, even if someone has managed to overcome his faults, it's still possible to temporarily regress under certain circumstances. That's realistically human.
It’s not realistic since dealing with what Ash had too in this episode should have been far easier than some of what Ash has had to deal with in the past. Also once again this stance of yours is unfalsifiable since you can use this as an excuse for almost any Ash character regression imaginable. You need to give clear guidelines (as well as justifications preferably) for what is to be considered character regression/inconsistency and what is merely to be considered “realistically human”.

The chips just happened to fall in just the right way to make Ash day snap this time.
You mean the writers decided to treat Ash like a husk of flesh that they could inject whatever character traits they deemed fit in order to suit the current narrative without taking Ash’s past expereinces into consideration; yup those chips did indeed fall just the right way to make that happen.

You may not think that Ash snapping made sense, but I don't think you have the right to tell me or anyone else that we are wrong when the issue of whether or not Ash's snapping makes sense in these circumstances is a matter of personal opinion, not objective fact.
It objectively doesn’t make sense (a.k.a it’s objectively bad writing) given what Ash has had to endure in the past (namely DP and XY) nor does the consequence of Ash’s competency being so pitiful in that match make sense either (Paul’s battle psychology caused him to make errors that proved to be critical but even that didn’t lower his skill lvl by such a large degree); your opinion won’t change that fact. How much of an issue this is to the overall narrative is where the subjectivity comes in but whether it even is or isn’t an issue to begin with does not have a non-trivial element of subjectivity.

I swear at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if you were to write off Ash contradicting his core values as a trainer (which he had even back in Kanto) during the Elesa gym battle as merely him being “realistically human”.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
mehmeh1 said:
my problem with this episode (choreography aside) isn't that ash snapped, but that he was like "NUUUUH! ME GUD TRANER! ME LUGARUGARUGARUGARUGARUGAN'S PERTNOR!", so was more of him throwing a childish tantrum

Well any signs of child-like behavior from him are the norm in SM, although I didn't mind it much here since he was put in a stressful position while fighting a tough opponent.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I swear at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if you were to write off Ash contradicting his core values as a trainer (which he had even back in Kanto) during the Elesa gym battle as merely him being “realistically human”.
Nope, that battle was just all kinds of stupid. Regardless, it seems we are not going to agree on this matter, so there is no point in continuing this argument. You believe that Ash snapping made no sense and that anyone who disagrees with you is objectively wrong, despite this being a matter of opinion. I believe that there is a reasonable explanation for it given the circumstances. That is all.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Nope, that battle was just all kinds of stupid. Regardless, it seems we are not going to agree on this matter, so there is no point in continuing this argument. You believe that Ash snapping made no sense and that anyone who disagrees with you is objectively wrong, despite this being a matter of opinion. I believe that there is a reasonable explanation for it given the circumstances. That is all.
Good to know. Yeah you’re also objectively wrong if you’re operating under the premise that all view points (a.k.a opinions) are equally valid. Opinions with more detail and/or better reasoning (and yeah this can be objectively determined) have greater value than shallow view points with poor or at times even outright fallacious justification. I’ve argued why the “circumtances” you speak of does not in the least bit justify the magnitude of Ash’s competency regression for this episode not to mention that you’re also incredibly vague as to what your guidelines are for when a character regression/inconsistency should be considered bad writing and when it should merely be considered portraying someone as being “realistically human”.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
it still perplexes me that Mean Look can do that, temporary or not.

was pretty good, and whoever did Nanu's dub voice definitely fit the role of a "dark specialist" something Ash has never faced before.

the only bad thing is the music change during the Z-move clash, but it's understandable, I don't know how they'd fit the English movie theme in there.

and of course on a personal nitpick, Nanu's comment to Ash about him not being suited to the dark.
 

Ryu Taylor

Unwavering beliefs. Richter Taylor is my name now.
This episode made the list of best cases in favor of Sarah Natochenny being the definitive Ash. See the scene where Ash resists each of Nanu's taunts about Ash being too doting, and also the Z-Move scene.

At least my number one Ghost guy put up a good fight. Sableye's cool and cute, hence why he's my number one Ghost guy.

All of Lycanroc's development, shoddy though parts of it were, were worth it for this battle. It's taken the place of the Grand Trial Battle versus Olivia as the best of the saga.

Man, that theme for Sableye is so oddly funky. Oh well, at least it wasn't his WTP? card theme this time like in XY. But damn it all, if Miyazaki could only do the game music justice instead of ****ing them up, I'd be glad about the overwhelming about of JP battle music kept in this one. But things are how they are, Miyazaki sucks as a remixer and therefore insults the game music with his terrible takes on them, so once again, the dub music is the highlight. No new cues, but some good old ones.

This was a great arc all things considered. Back to Melemele Island now.
 
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