Nanu's Grand Trial! The Awakening of Lycanroc! (1020)

[Ignition]

Lmao @keepitsimple and @Dragalge's type of humor never fails to get me

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Lmao @keepitsimple and @Dragalge's type of humor never fails to get me

What part? Where they persecute dub fans?

 

[keepitsimple]

I think we can all agree that I'm a menace who needs to be stopped and Ryu Taylor is the man who's going to do it

 

[Ignition]

What part? Where they persecute dub fans?

Yes. Even though I'm neutral on this subject (I couldn't care less about which language of a cartoon any of you watch), I still find it funny. It's just part of how they convey their thoughts. Nothing personal

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Yes. Even though I'm neutral on this subject (I couldn't care less about which language of a cartoon any of you watch), I still find it funny. It's just part of how they convey their thoughts. Nothing personal

While I'm concerned how you can dismiss uncalled-for hatred for a whole group of a fandom as just being "part of how they convey their thoughts", I'm glad you don't parttake in it yourself.

 

[Ignition]

While I'm concerned how you can dismiss uncalled-for hatred for a whole group of a fandom as just being "part of how they convey their thoughts", I'm glad you don't parttake in it yourself.

Well, I don't justify the act of hating on one's preference, I'm more so with the how they convey themselves. Not so much what they're conveying.

 

[keepitsimple]

I don't hate anyone, nor do I care what language you watch this show in lmao (said this already but you chose to think what you want without anything to back it up) but you made yourself the center of attention by posting nothing but tantrums calling the music directors names and randos on a pokemon forum purists, and I had nothing else to do at the time so I made fun of you for it.

Don't blow things out of proportion and act like I was doing it because you're a dub fan, or whatever

 

[Bguy7]

Paid translators still make mistakes. Paid translators working on a strict time-crunch even more so. And really, this is the first real mistranslation I can remember hearing about since, oh... the "Lotion" thing in the Morelull episode? Unless you count the part where they said that Ash had cleared his Akala Island Trials, plural, after he'd only done one. And both of those are significantly less noteworthy than this one. So on the whole, their track record is pretty solid.

I know, mistakes do happen, I'm just saying that we shouldn't automatically assume they made a mistake. If the Japanese and English seem to imply two different things, and it's possible to find a way were both can be right, then that should be the correct interpretation. In this case, it could be said that Nanu was just leaving the "pre" part out in the Japanese because it was implied. Then the translators, knowing the intention of the original writers, added in the "pre." In this case, both the original and dub can be correct, without making any crazy assumptions. Not saying it absolutely wasn't a mistake, but it wasn't absolutely a mistake either.

 

[Leonhart]

I haven't seen the episode yet, but Lycanroc defeating Sableye and Krookodile to me shows the superiority of mammalian Pokemon. And beating Persian? Well dogs are supposed to beat cats.

I don't think him winning was meant to prove anything regarding species superiority per se, though. Lugarugan's battles were impressive, but mostly seemed to suggest that he was now Satoshi's regional ace.

 

[Lord Starfish]

I know, mistakes do happen, I'm just saying that we shouldn't automatically assume they made a mistake. If the Japanese and English seem to imply two different things, and it's possible to find a way were both can be right, then that should be the correct interpretation. In this case, it could be said that Nanu was just leaving the "pre" part out in the Japanese because it was implied. Then the translators, knowing the intention of the original writers, added in the "pre." In this case, both the original and dub can be correct, without making any crazy assumptions. Not saying it absolutely wasn't a mistake, but it wasn't absolutely a mistake either.

Yeah see... From where I'm standing this sounds far more implausible than just "The dub got it wrong". Because this whole "Pre-Trial" thing was literally nothing more than Kuchinashi being lazy and wanting Satoshi to go away as quickly as possible. He tried to dismiss him with an unofficial battle putting in the bare minimum effort, when that failed and he came back insisting on getting an actual Trial, he gave him one but again just put in the bare minimum effort by handing the entire responsibility off to Team Rocket, and then the only part he didn't skimp on was the Grand Trial itself. Because he couldn't slack off on that. And weren't you the one complaining that him not giving a proper Trial beforehand was a plot-hole? I find it far easier to believe that the dub-writers, who have been known to making errors from time to time, misinterpreted the line rather than that the Japanese writers somehow managed to both miss a crucial word (several times over, mind you) and contradict the show's internal logic in the process. The latter to me seems to demand quite a few more assumptions than the former.

 

[mehmeh1]

Yeah see... From where I'm standing this sounds far more implausible than just "The dub got it wrong". Because this whole "Pre-Trial" thing was literally nothing more than Kuchinashi being lazy and wanting Satoshi to go away as quickly as possible. He tried to dismiss him with an unofficial battle putting in the bare minimum effort, when that failed and he came back insisting on getting an actual Trial, he gave him one but again just put in the bare minimum effort by handing the entire responsibility off to Team Rocket, and then the only part he didn't skimp on was the Grand Trial itself. Because he couldn't slack off on that. And weren't you the one complaining that him not giving a proper Trial beforehand was a plot-hole? I find it far easier to believe that the dub-writers, who have been known to making errors from time to time, misinterpreted the line rather than that the Japanese writers somehow managed to both miss a crucial word (several times over, mind you) and contradict the show's internal logic in the process. The latter to me seems to demand quite a few more assumptions than the former.

to be fair, nanu even slacked off of the grand trial, making it a 3v1 and trying to taunt ash into defeat throughout the fight instead of actually fighting

 

[Bguy7]

Yeah see... From where I'm standing this sounds far more implausible than just "The dub got it wrong". Because this whole "Pre-Trial" thing was literally nothing more than Kuchinashi being lazy and wanting Satoshi to go away as quickly as possible. He tried to dismiss him with an unofficial battle putting in the bare minimum effort, when that failed and he came back insisting on getting an actual Trial, he gave him one but again just put in the bare minimum effort by handing the entire responsibility off to Team Rocket, and then the only part he didn't skimp on was the Grand Trial itself. Because he couldn't slack off on that.

So my possible version of things would be that Nanu's laziness continued, and instead of giving Ash an official trial, he sent on another improvised "pre-trial."

I can't speak for the original, but the entire scene in question, in the dub, was framed in such a way that it was Ash wanting another go at the pre-trial, and there was never a distinction made. Yes, it could all just be a mistake, but I don't think it's implausible, or even unlikely, that it wasn't.

And weren't you the one complaining that him not giving a proper Trial beforehand was a plot-hole?

Yes, I was. So that should show how strongly I feel about automatically calling the dub wrong.

I find it far easier to believe that the dub-writers, who have been known to making errors from time to time, misinterpreted the line rather than that the Japanese writers somehow managed to both miss a crucial word (several times over, mind you) and contradict the show's internal logic in the process.

I'm not saying the Japanese writers missed it, I'm just saying they might have been abbreviating for simplicity. I'm saying that possibly neither side made a mistake.

The latter to me seems to demand quite a few more assumptions than the former.

I won't deny that. I'm not trying to say it's the more likely possibility, just that it is a possibility, and even if it isn't the most likely possibility, it's still one that can't automatically be dismissed.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

to be fair, nanu even slacked off of the grand trial, making it a 3v1 and trying to taunt ash into defeat throughout the fight instead of actually fighting

He was fighting like a Dark-type trainer should, getting under his opponent's skin to throw them off-kilter and make mistakes so winning becomes easier

About dang time Dark types got proper representation in the anime

Now where's Grimsley...

 

[LilligantLewis]

I was at first pleasantly surprised to see that half this thread has taken place post-dub airing, because usually I'm one of the only people months later, but then it turned out to be an immature argument instead of actual debate about the episode

Nanu's own overconfidence screwed him on all 3 Pokémon. While many in this thread are saying Lycanroc 1HKOs and 2HKOs are showing that it is strong, I say there was no proper buildup up to this point and that in every case, Nanu's Pokémon only lost because Nanu was overconfident. This is one of Ash's least deserved victories in terms of power and strategy. It's deserved in some sense since Nanu deserved to lose for his overconfidence, but I don't know that Ash deserved to win, he didn't outstrategize or outpower Nanu.

Nanu's Persian used Power Gem, like the only other Persian Ash has ever battled (BWS2-12)

I think this kinda confirms Torracat staying as is, while his last capture might also be confirmed.

I get what you mean about Incineroar - if he were to get Incineroar, he would have gotten the Darkium Z. But who's his last capture?

Anyway, one thing which was really notable in this episode was the inconsistency in Nanu's Krookodile's power level considering how it was depicted in SM74. Was it truly the same Krookodile battling here? Hard to believe it TBH.

Lycanroc wasn't being bullied to the point of losing it this time.


If you have a strategy that doesn't work a second time, it can end up with a totally different result.


Wulfric's Avalugg is another example.

And even his Abomasnow tbh, although it's not as good of an example since it went Mega. It still did seem significantly stronger in its base form though.

I do have to say I find this premise less of cop out than say the 'evolution DEM' cliche

All 3 times that's happened were in BW, and the only time Ash got a free Berry in the middle of a gym battle was also in BW, so even if this is a better copout, it's only better than BW, not anything else, despite the fact that @dman_dustin wanted Frogadier to evolve against Olympia for some reason and went on a massive rant in that episode's thread (XY93).

Ah, so the red eyes things DID actually go somewhere. Well played SM. Well played.

Indeed. Those in the last episode thread who said it was stupid that it got resolved so quickly ended up being right, and I ended up being wrong thinking its red eyes were similar to those of Korrina-Lucario.

I don't think it's cheating to be given a sitrus berry in the middle of the battle, especially after Namu had put Ash into a major disadvantage making it so that Ash would have to take out three of Nanu's Pokémon using only Lycanroc.

In terms of being down 1 v 3, I agree it makes sense. It was really stupid against Roxie 6 v 3.

if they had more time,

They had so much more time though. This battle was 1 v 3. They wasted a bunch of it on irrelevant stuff when they could have easily shown much more battling, I mean consider the fact that 3 v 3 and even 4 v 4 battles have been shown in the duration of one episode before, it's not like they didn't have time.

Way to overhype Dusk Lycanroc while making Nanu into a weakling/another Roxie, writers.

How is he a Roxie? Roxie was 6 v 3 not 1 v3, the opposite extreme.

just look at how Sableye instantly got eviscarated by Stone Edge

Nanu's overconfidence and unpreparedness caused this, not Sableye's inherent weakness.

I didn't know Mean Look could cause temporal paralysis though.

Yeah this was really stupid

This whole arc felt a bit rushed.

No kidding, why was it only 5 episodes? There was so much more they could have done to make it at least the length of Akala if not longer - Ash could have lost again to Nanu which imo would have made more sense, I mean how can you go from losing a 1v1 to winning a 1v3 with the same Pokémon with minimal training in between? There should have been more training episodes. They should have delved more into the Nanu/Giovanni connection. They should have shown Team Skull. This arc was WAY too short. It barely feels like an arc to me and just like a short collection of episodes tbh. It feels more similar to gym leaders who appeared for multiple episodes in a row (Clair in OS for example) than an actual arc.

Okay, this isn't the first time this has happened, (I remember this being noticable for a stretch of XY&Z too) but... the show has been downright spamming insert-songs lately. At least it wasn't Mirai Connection again this time, but honestly Mezase Pokémon Master doesn't really work as a battle theme either, if you ask me. And anyway, having insert songs like, seven episodes in a row kinda diminishes their impact. But maybe that's just me.

What's an insert song? (I only watch the dub)

Dark type specialist, not what we typically see from a Gym Leader or Kahuna.

I guess this is one possible explanation for his odd behavior.

No, they wanted Greninja to continue traveling with Ash, even in Alola, sweeping those tapu guardians & trial captains with the awesome Ash-Greninja transformations, and tell Zygarde "No! I OWN Greninja and we saved the world together. If it wasn't for me you would have stayed as a Team Flare's slave, so you don't deserve the Pokemon. And the evil roots were all because of you and your brother, so you fix your mess by yourselves. Screw you!". I'm pretty sure those fans would drool with that kind of scenario.

I don't think those fans who thought Ash-Greninja would come to Alola were as unreasonable as you make them out to be considering that the first in-game appearance of either Ash-Greninja or the Zygarde formes was in SM. It wasn't unreasonable to think there may be a Zygarde plot in the SM anime, considering that in XY&Z46, it was vague as to whether that's where they would leave that plot off.

Nanu’s provocation would have any significant affect on Ash’s battling judgement especially when they were a far cry away from the nuance and intricacies of Paul’s battle psychology.

Ash may have just not expected it from the equivalent of a gym leader since this is the first one that's treated him this way since, maybe, Lt. Surge?

At least Lycanroc was a badass this episode cementing his spot in Ash’s TOP 6 (a.k.a GPICSS is now GPLICS with Snorlax kicked out).

Are you being serious? You're usually so thoroughly evidence-based and logical. Lycanroc's feats are still below Krookodile's to me let alone Snorlax. Again, I don't think this battle would have been as easy as it was if it had purely come down to power with Nanu battling seriously and not ****ing around.

Yeah agreed that his Poni trial will also play an important role in determining where he stands though though I don’t agree Ash is generally at most impressive in terms of skill in the last gym battles. In DP and XY for example I’d argue that in terms of pure skill (so no bond power induced transformations like special Blaze and A-G) Ash’s battles with Fantina (a.k.a counter-shield the battle) and Olympia (a.k.a best double battle in the series) respectively were his best gym battles. Even in BW I’d rate Brycen as his best gym battle performance (it’s the only BW gym battle where I thought Ash showed signs of his DP self). Johto and Hoenn are the ones where yeah I’d agree that vs Clair and vs Juan were his best gym battle showings in those series. Given that SM Ash hasn’t really had a standout gym battle performance in SM (I think his best skill feat to date in SM was actually against Misty), you’re right that the Poni trial needs to deliver from a tactical standpoint if SM Ash is to be ranked on the higher end of Ash’s incarnations in terms of skill.

You left off Kanto, in which I think it was Blaine, so again the 7th gym battle, just like BW and XY.

it still perplexes me that Mean Look can do that, temporary or not.

Yeah what an absolute joke. Classic making up new rules on the spot by the anime writers. Mean Look should have no effect in a battle where Ash is already down to his last Pokémon anyway. smh

and of course on a personal nitpick, Nanu's comment to Ash about him not being suited to the dark.

I agree with your nitpick since Ash has had a Dark-type ace 2 gens in a row.

 

[Dragalge]

Yeah what an absolute joke. Classic making up new rules on the spot by the anime writers. Mean Look should have no effect in a battle where Ash is already down to his last Pokémon anyway. smh[

This is the same show where a floating shrimp is able to use Heal Pulse on itself. Maybe it doesn’t excuse the whole Mean Look thing but they have never fully cared about following game logic.

 

[DatsRight]

All 3 times that's happened were in BW, and the only time Ash got a free Berry in the middle of a gym battle was also in BW, so even if this is a better copout, it's only better than BW, not anything else, despite the fact that @dman_dustin wanted Frogadier to evolve against Olympia for some reason and went on a massive rant in that episode's thread (XY93).

Well the earlier gyms were filled with all sorts of other cop outs like 'Thunder Armour' or TR interruptions.

I did at least like Ash using his Z Move strategically, not just as a finishing move, it would be neat to see more cases of this.

 

[LilligantLewis]

This is the same show where a floating shrimp is able to use Heal Pulse on itself. Maybe it doesn’t excuse the whole Mean Look thing but they have never fully cared about following game logic.

They could have just given it a move that actually paralyzes. Why use Mean Look of all things?

 

[LilligantLewis]

Well the earlier gyms were filled with all sorts of other cop outs like 'Thunder Armour' or TR interruptions.

I was just specifically talking about what you mentioned in your post, that being DEM evolutions.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I don't mind them using Mean Look like this. It traps, makes sense that it hinders motion. Absol's Mean Look in the Aether arc also hindered Umbreon and Lycanroc if I recall correctly. They also changed how Stealth Rock works for Olivia's Grand Trial.

What's an insert song? (I only watch the dub)

An insert song is when an anime inserts a song with vocals inside an actual episode (as in, not the opening or ending). These songs can be the opening or ending songs, remixes of those, or even completely custom songs written specifically for that moment. Anime usually use it to convey extra hype (with the opening songs usually) or to make a moment extra special. Litten's capture episode for instance had a custom insert song in Japanese about how Litten slowly cheers back up due to the smiles it receives from others around it (implied to be Ash and his pokémon). Dubs often don't adopt insert songs, I don't think pokémon ever does.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I don't mind them using Mean Look like this. It traps, makes sense that it hinders motion. Absol's Mean Look in the Aether arc also hindered Umbreon and Lycanroc if I recall correctly. They also changed how Stealth Rock works for Olivia's Grand Trial.

An insert song is when an anime inserts a song with vocals inside an actual episode (as in, not the opening or ending). These songs can be the opening or ending songs, remixes of those, or even completely custom songs written specifically for that moment. Anime usually use it to convey extra hype (with the opening songs usually) or to make a moment extra special. Litten's capture episode for instance had a custom insert song in Japanese about how Litten slowly cheers back up due to the smiles it receives from others around it (implied to be Ash and his pokémon). Dubs often don't adopt insert songs, I don't think pokémon ever does.

Wow it frankly seems to me that it would be a bit annoying to have vocals playing. Do they ever do it when there are other actual vocals being said in-universe so that words from the song and spoken words are overlapping?