Naruto and Boruto Discussion Thread

[Kamex]

Madara better be dead! Madara may be the only character in Naruto I can truly say I HATE! I don't normally throw the word hate around, because it's a strong word, but I cannot stand Madara. A boring, generic, overlord villain. I could go on and on about why Madara sucks as a character, but I'll spare you the rant.

As much as I appreciate you sparing me the rant, I have to say I disagree with you. I think Madara is a deep character. There were so many things in the dark about his intentions and history that we slowly learned, and even now I feel like it's hard to completely sympathize with his character (because he's complicated, not because he's nonsensical). Looking into the past, we saw the crazy life he lived in his youth during the Warring States period, the intricate relationship/friendship/rivarly he had with Hashirama, the implications of said relationship on the entire world thereafter, the weight of his clan's well-being (including his remaining brother) on his shoulders, the responsibility and decisions he made concerning his rare skill and ocular powers, all the conclusions and changes of heart he made throughout his life up until he finally decided to desert the young Leaf village and become a true villain, the crazy plan he concocted after reading the Uchiha Stone Monument, etc...

And yes, after all of that, we know him current day to be a pretty straight-forward, seemingly-non-dimensional, hax villain on the surface. But considering everything that lead him to this point and everything that must be theoretically going on in his mind that's resulted in his megalomania, I don't think any of that is a good enough reason to consider him boring and generic. That being said, I am not one of those who would consider Obito to be a poorly-written villain (at least not entirely).

As far that comment about who influences who. Well as of right now Kaguya is the one behind everything. And while Obito was being manipulated, we don't find that out till the more then halfway through the war arc. Until then it was Obito as fake Madara calling the shots, making the plans, getting the bad guys together, and starting ****! The real Madara is a last minute villain who took all the myths being brought on Obito as Fakedara and suddenly he's the real threat. He has no personal connections to any of the characters fighting in the war, no real grudges between Naruto or Sasuke. He is simply the answer to Naruto and Sasuke's growing powers. That's all Madara is. His name got built as the villain on another character. It's like putting Darth Vader or Voldemorts name on some random villain only to reveal last minute that the bad guys you thought were the real bad guys were in fact not who they say they were. Anyway I've ranted about Madara's position in the Naruto world for weeks and weeks with other members now.

I mean, you make it sound like there was absolutely no hint that Tobi could have possibly been a fake Madara to begin with. He wore a mask, he seemed very young, other than his Sharingan there was no direct way to relate any of his powers (namely his Space-Time Ninjutsu) to Madara's, and there was a lot of mystery behind the sudden reappearance of this apparent "Madara Uchiha". So while I see your point of how the real Madara seemed to come out of no where (and I can even imagine how the series could have been had Tobi really been Madara after all, it's totally possible if I'm not mistaken), I feel like you're not giving the story enough credit and yes "hate" is probably too strong of a word here I would hope.

But you're right about Madara having no personal connections to any of the characters fighting in the war (other than Hashirama, Tobirama and I suppose the Tsuchikage). At least we had two simultaneous villains towards the end to cover any gaps (Madara and Obito). *shrugs*

Bottom line, Madara sucks and I hope his character stays dead. Good riddance, you boring killing machine with no personality beyond generic overlord.

I certainly hope he has more closure, he deserves that much at least IMO.

 

[Lorde]

Mangawise Naruto vs Sasuke was really one sided and lacking.

Well sure Sasuke had the upper hand in that fight, because he was supposed to be the last one standing so that he could successfully defect to Otogakure or wherever Orochimaru was.

 

[LightningMaster95]

after watching the naruto shippuden episode today it reminded me of a question that always made me wonder
if minato had survived the nine tails attack how would he have dealt with the uchiha rebellion?would it still have happened?

 

[Platinum fan.]

As much as I appreciate you sparing me the rant, I have to say I disagree with you. I think Madara is a deep character. There were so many things in the dark about his intentions and history that we slowly learned, and even now I feel like it's hard to completely sympathize with his character (because he's complicated, not because he's nonsensical). Looking into the past, we saw the crazy life he lived in his youth during the Warring States period, the intricate relationship/friendship/rivarly he had with Hashirama, the implications of said relationship on the entire world thereafter, the weight of his clan's well-being (including his remaining brother) on his shoulders, the responsibility and decisions he made concerning his rare skill and ocular powers, all the conclusions and changes of heart he made throughout his life up until he finally decided to desert the young Leaf village and become a true villain, the crazy plan he concocted after reading the Uchiha Stone Monument, etc...

And yes, after all of that, we know him current day to be a pretty straight-forward, seemingly-non-dimensional, hax villain on the surface. But considering everything that lead him to this point and everything that must be theoretically going on in his mind that's resulted in his megalomania, I don't think any of that is a good enough reason to consider him boring and generic. That being said, I am not one of those who would consider Obito to be a poorly-written villain (at least not entirely).



I mean, you make it sound like there was absolutely no hint that Tobi could have possibly been a fake Madara to begin with. He wore a mask, he seemed very young, other than his Sharingan there was no direct way to relate any of his powers (namely his Space-Time Ninjutsu) to Madara's, and there was a lot of mystery behind the sudden reappearance of this apparent "Madara Uchiha". So while I see your point of how the real Madara seemed to come out of no where (and I can even imagine how the series could have been had Tobi really been Madara after all, it's totally possible if I'm not mistaken), I feel like you're not giving the story enough credit and yes "hate" is probably too strong of a word here I would hope.

But you're right about Madara having no personal connections to any of the characters fighting in the war (other than Hashirama, Tobirama and I suppose the Tsuchikage). At least we had two simultaneous villains towards the end to cover any gaps (Madara and Obito). *shrugs*



I certainly hope he has more closure, he deserves that much at least IMO.

I'm close to hating Madara. I still just dislike him. If I hate a character, my rants would be much worse and I would not give the character any credit. I can at least say Madara was the answer to Naruto and Sasuke's overpowered...powers. I'm not trying to say there was no possible way that Tobi couldn't have been Madara. I just think it was done poorly. At best I thought Tobi was either a imperfect clone of Madara trying to be whole or a weak Madara not at full power, though I use to run around here spreading the dreaded Future Sasuke idea. My main issue with Madara was how last minute the character feels. It's not as bad as Kaguya, but to me it still feels like the villain who started all this between Naruto and friends, was not the villain to end this and instead it's a character who has no history at all with Naruto and IMO had no dynamic with anyone outside Hashirama. This really kills the battle for me if there's no dynamic. It didn't feel personal at all between Naruto and Madara. Obito on the other hand has done many things to generate hate from the main cast. Killing Naruto's parents with Kyuubi, starting the war, getting Sasuke to join the bad guys, Sending Pain to blow up Konoha and capture Naruto. It did feel personal between Naruto and Obito. But with Madara? All the guy has is his Hashirama boner when he sense him nearby. That's like the only general emotion I ever got from Madara.

To make my long essay short, to me Madara does not feel like the final villain he should be. He's simply a generic bad guy that needs to be stopped and his chemistry with his opponents is also lacking. And this makes me dislike him DX

 

[Kamex]

I'm close to hating Madara. I still just dislike him. If I hate a character, my rants would be much worse and I would not give the character any credit. I can at least say Madara was the answer to Naruto and Sasuke's overpowered...powers. I'm not trying to say there was no possible way that Tobi couldn't have been Madara. I just think it was done poorly. At best I thought Tobi was either a imperfect clone of Madara trying to be whole or a weak Madara not at full power, though I use to run around here spreading the dreaded Future Sasuke idea. My main issue with Madara was how last minute the character feels. It's not as bad as Kaguya, but to me it still feels like the villain who started all this between Naruto and friends, was not the villain to end this and instead it's a character who has no history at all with Naruto and IMO had no dynamic with anyone outside Hashirama. This really kills the battle for me if there's no dynamic. It didn't feel personal at all between Naruto and Madara. Obito on the other hand has done many things to generate hate from the main cast. Killing Naruto's parents with Kyuubi, starting the war, getting Sasuke to join the bad guys, Sending Pain to blow up Konoha and capture Naruto. It did feel personal between Naruto and Obito. But with Madara? All the guy has is his Hashirama boner when he sense him nearby. That's like the only general emotion I ever got from Madara.

To make my long essay short, to me Madara does not feel like the final villain he should be. He's simply a generic bad guy that needs to be stopped and his chemistry with his opponents is also lacking. And this makes me dislike him DX

The thing is, after Madara was reincarnated and even after Tobi's identity was revealed, Obito didn't just cease being the villain to offer Madara the pedestal. Madara became the "big bad" I suppose, but other than proving that he was nearly unstoppable, he still pretty much held a backseat to Obito as the lead villain for the time being, so I feel like nothing really effectively changed. And then when Obito was defeated and Madara finally went into action, then I'd say you're right that he kind of just served as a humongous hurdle for Naruto and Sasuke to knock down (or attempt to - they technically never beat him). But to be honest, did that really matter? We already got plenty of personal battles and whatnot from previous battles, ending with Obito's. Maybe Madara's main purpose, plot-wise, was to be the ultimate challenge (well, Kaguya notwithstanding... >_>). Besides, Madara's beef with Hashirama was bigger than just the two of them, for two reasons: one, the whole Ashura/Indra parallels (which connects Madara to Naruto and Sasuke after all); and two, Madara basically represented the whole "force peace on everyone because there's no other way to achieve it" ideology. Many characters represented this, but Madara was the one with the biggest push to make it happen, and Naruto's main purpose (in Part II at least) was to fight that way of thinking head on. [EDIT: And for Sasuke, Hashirama's relationship with Madara and their history is what finally got him on the heroes' side again, so battling Madara alongside Naruto was symbolic for him.] And besides, Madara only really lasted in the limelight long enough for us to have some crazy battles, then Black Zetsu quickly stole his thunder... what Madara represents and his influence on the series was his true contribution to the story.

So basically what I'm saying is even if Madara is more or less what you make him out to be, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Not that I expect you to change your mind. In fact, I agree that it would have been better if Madara had a direct relationship with the main characters.

 

[Shneak]

after watching the naruto shippuden episode today it reminded me of a question that always made me wonder
if minato had survived the nine tails attack how would he have dealt with the uchiha rebellion?would it still have happened?

Depends on whether Obito survives and has enough influence on Itachi still. I doubt Danzo would be in the same position with Minato as the hokage.

 

[Lorde]

Speaking of a final Naruto and Sasuke fight over the Hokage title, where would it occur? I hope it doesn't happen at the Final Valley again.

 

[Kamex]

Speaking of a final Naruto and Sasuke fight over the Hokage title, where would it occur? I hope it doesn't happen at the Final Valley again.

Maybe that battle would create a new valley. "The First Valley" or "The Valley of the Beginning".

 

[TsukiMirage]

Sounds like translation issues indeed. Well I'm holding the actual volume 45 where it states Sasukes actions as genocide. As far as how Sasuke could be a villain before doing anything, Sasuke tells Obito the truth behind his actions. He plans to kill everyone in Konoha. Everyone! Whether they were involved with the Uchiha incident or not. He didn't get around to killing anyone, but the entire point is he was planning too. Sasuke was going to kill innocent people over the Uchiha incident. That is the actions of a cold blooded killer. He was attempting mass genocide on Konoha. That sounds way more like a villain then a anti-hero. In my opinion Sasuke went from a regular good guy, when he joined Orochimaru he became a anti-hero, when he announced his plans to kill Konoha he was a full blown villain, and then he became a anti-hero again when he teamed with Itachi and started questioning his motives and needed the dead Hokage for answers of the truth. That's how I see Sasuke.

The Japanese volume? Cause that's the only one that would hold actual weight.

And again I ask, why do you believe that Sasuke was telling Obito the truth, given his actions and more importantly, the relationship between them? They were not close, they were barely comrades. Sasuke literally betrayed Obito every chance he got. He attempted to kill and tried to leave Akatsuki. Heck, he showed his intentions once he finally got EMS and once again left. Events support him speaking the truth to Taka more then speaking it to Obito. In addition, why would Sasuke have to lie to Team Taka? Think about it. Suigetsu? He was all for killing and only toned down because Sasuke made him, and even then he was still killing people behind Sasuke's back. Juugo? Another person who had no problem with killing, and who was absolute loyal to Sasuke. Karin? Miss bipolar who was just as questionably moral as Suigetsu. She had no problem hunting and locking people up for Orochimaru. So exactly who was he lying for? The former two were mass-murderers and the latter showed no issues with working for a mass-murderer. Heck, Suigetsu brought up the idea of destroying Konoha when they went to talk to the Edo Hokages.

Anyway, if that's the way you want to see it, alright. I just don't see any reason to believe Sasuke wasn't just playing Obito, given all that he did.

Speaking of a final Naruto and Sasuke fight over the Hokage title, where would it occur? I hope it doesn't happen at the Final Valley again.

I still doubt there will be a fight, especially given how they are now, working together and the current theme of combining skills.

 

[Platinum fan.]

The Japanese volume? Cause that's the only one that would hold actual weight.

And again I ask, why do you believe that Sasuke was telling Obito the truth, given his actions and more importantly, the relationship between them? They were not close, they were barely comrades. Sasuke literally betrayed Obito every chance he got. He attempted to kill and tried to leave Akatsuki. Heck, he showed his intentions once he finally got EMS and once again left. Events support him speaking the truth to Taka more then speaking it to Obito. In addition, why would Sasuke have to lie to Team Taka? Think about it. Suigetsu? He was all for killing and only toned down because Sasuke made him, and even then he was still killing people behind Sasuke's back. Juugo? Another person who had no problem with killing, and who was absolute loyal to Sasuke. Karin? Miss bipolar who was just as questionably moral as Suigetsu. She had no problem hunting and locking people up for Orochimaru. So exactly who was he lying for? The former two were mass-murderers and the latter showed no issues with working for a mass-murderer. Heck, Suigetsu brought up the idea of destroying Konoha when they went to talk to the Edo Hokages.

Anyway, if that's the way you want to see it, alright. I just don't see any reason to believe Sasuke wasn't just playing Obito, given all that he did.

I still doubt there will be a fight, especially given how they are now, working together and the current theme of combining skills.

No offense, but now it just sounds like your in denial. Why do I think Sasuke was telling Obito the truth? Well he tells Kakashi, Sakura, and Naruto the exact same thing that he's going to kill everyone in Konoha including them. And your question of Sasuke lying to Obito. Well if he was lying to Obito why would Kishi even bother to show that? If Sasuke was lying then wouldn't it make more sense to first show him lying to Obito and then going behind his back and telling Taka the truth? The opposite happened. As to why Sasuke lied to them. Sasuke already explained that himself in the chapter. He wants to slaughter Konoha by himself. When it comes to revenge Sasuke has always worked alone. Taka is just there to make sure nobody gets in the way of his revenge, but he's always taking revenge on his own and takes great pleasure in it. See killing Danzo.

Again, no offense, but I'm starting to wonder how much of this manga you've actually read. Please don't take that the wrong way though.

 

[Nodame]

I don't think there needs to be another time skip. However the Naruto and Sasuke fight...I guess needs to still happen? To be perfectly honest, after back to back Obito, Madara, and Kaguya fights, I'm battled out from big showdowns in Naruto. Between those three Super Freaks, you've done everything possible in a Naruto fight. I don't even think a Naruto vs Sasuke battle would even compare. I suppose it could happen. I mean it ended Part 1, but personally I found some of the Sound Four battles to be way better Part 1 finales then Naruto vs Sasuke in the Vally of ends. Mangawise anyway. This is the only time you'll see me praise the anime for doing something way better then the manga. Mangawise Naruto vs Sasuke was really one sided and lacking.

Watching them fight used to be rather interesting to me, but after a little while it died a bit. I still want to see a great fight, but I don't really care all that much anymore. Too predictable for me to be that interested *yawn*

 

[Lorde]

I still doubt there will be a fight, especially given how they are now, working together and the current theme of combining skills.

And yet there's still the matter of Sasuke wanting to be Hokage too and how that conflicts with Naruto's dream. How else will that get resolved without a fight?

 

[Kamex]

And yet there's still the matter of Sasuke wanting to be Hokage too and how that conflicts with Naruto's dream. How else will that get resolved without a fight?

Maybe there will be two Hokage. That would be silly to me though. Or maybe Sasuke will hold some other leadership position, similar to how Danzo was the "Root" to Hiruzen's leaves. Somehow teamwork will be the solution.

I used to really want a Naruto vs. Sasuke fight, but it's true that it no longer seems like it would add much after back-to-back-to-back final boss battles...

 

[Platinum fan.]

Honestly Sasuke in any position of power in Konoha is just wrong, let alone Hokage. Sasuke's a selfish jerk who only cares about himself and his dead clan. Nobody in their right mind should want Sasuke as Hokage. The same guy who planned to kill everyone in the village. If Sasuke becomes Hokage over Naruto, I would say I'd quit the series but it's probably ending anyway. Just expect a massive essay long rant from me

 

[Emperor Empoleon]

IDK why Kishi even introduced Hokage!Sasuke to the plot if he was just gonna hype Naruto some more. Just makes the whole thing look sillier.

 

[Kamex]

Honestly Sasuke in any position of power in Konoha is just wrong, let alone Hokage. Sasuke's a selfish jerk who only cares about himself and his dead clan. Nobody in their right mind should want Sasuke as Hokage. The same guy who planned to kill everyone in the village.

Well technically before hidden villages existed, everyone was similar to Sasuke. As in everyone only cared about their own clan and fought the others. But once they saw the efficiency and peace of joining forces, they did so and followed Hashirama's example and allowed themselves to be ruled by one powerful leader. Maybe Sasuke will do the same, follow Hashirama's example and care about the village.

Sasuke has "changed" and now he's fighting for the world including Konoha. His personality obviously hasn't changed, but his goals have. That being said, it's hard to trust him so I'm curious how Kishimoto will try to resolve the story if he wants to completely redeem Sasuke in the audience's eyes before the end. I'd like to think there will be some sort of paradigm shift in the way ninja villages work because of Naruto and Sasuke, similar to how the same happened to the Warring States period because of Hashirama and Madara.

 

[DANdotW]

I really enjoyed this chapter. Lots happened in the second half, and...well I always wanted Kakashi to have both Sharingan; I'm just wondering about what Obito said. They're going to run out at some point, right? After Obito "goes back" to Rin?

WOW at those Rasenshuriken's.

 

[XanderCage]

Well Kishi found his way to make Kakashi relevant again. I'm glad that his new power is only temporary though. It makes sense considering Kakashi has spent the majority of his life with Obito's eye and therefore Obito's chakra. Since chakra can travel between time and space it makes sense that Obito can travel back to Kakashi especially since I'm sure not all of his chakra had dissipated from his ashy remains. Kinda confused on how Kakashi can just get a Perfect Susanoo when Obito showed no ability to do so with both eyes before. Perhaps dying gave Obito all the wisdom in the world and he is controlling Kakashi's Susanoo from behind the scenes. He sure does like playing the puppet master.

 

[nuzamaki90]

Well Kishi found his way to make Kakashi relevant again. I'm glad that his new power is only temporary though. It makes sense considering Kakashi has spent the majority of his life with Obito's eye and therefore Obito's chakra. Since chakra can travel between time and space it makes sense that Obito can travel back to Kakashi especially since I'm sure not all of his chakra had dissipated from his ashy remains. Kinda confused on how Kakashi can just get a Perfect Susanoo when Obito showed no ability to do so with both eyes before. Perhaps dying gave Obito all the wisdom in the world and he is controlling Kakashi's Susanoo from behind the scenes. He sure does like playing the puppet master.

It wasn't Kakashi's own Susanoo, it was Sasuke's. Now that Kakashi has two MS he can copy bigger things, which is why Naruto thought it was Sasuke who summoned Susanoo at first.

The whole Kakashi being sixth Hokage thing makes A LOT of sense now. A lot of people, including myself, were wondering why Naruto didn't have his Hokage Cloak if The Last was indeed canon, and I guess we know why now. Kakashi became Sixth Hokage which means Naruto may or may not become Hokage in The Last.

 

[XanderCage]

It wasn't Kakashi's own Susanoo, it was Sasuke's. Now that Kakashi has two MS he can copy bigger things, which is why Naruto thought it was Sasuke who summoned Susanoo at first.

The whole Kakashi being sixth Hokage thing makes A LOT of sense now. A lot of people, including myself, were wondering why Naruto didn't have his Hokage Cloak if The Last was indeed canon, and I guess we know why now. Kakashi became Sixth Hokage which means Naruto may or may not become Hokage in The Last.

OH!! I didn't get that when I first read the chapter. I'll have to reread to see that again. I didn't realize that Kakashi copied Sasuke's Susanoo. I thought the sharigan couldn't copy kekkei genkai though? Or is it okay now since its a sharigan copying a sharigan's kekkei genkai?