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Naruto and Boruto Discussion Thread
- Thread starter EmberStar the Blaziken
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It's so tough to keep track of this series anymore.
So the fact of sealing Kaguya was to construct a moon around her? She's still there, just stuck inside those rocks in some alternate dimension? And Zetsu - the morphable, malleable, shadow-being - is also inside that moon? I am unclear on how exactly that amounts to defeating Kaguya. In a series where burying characters under humongous rocks does not guarantee their death even half of the time, how is this meant to convince us she's done for (let alone Zetsu, who can travel through solid earth anyway)? Her being in a separate dimension is also not exactly comforting given that she was the one who originally created and/or traveled to that dimension.
Is Kaguya supposed to be like Shedinja, where you can throw all kinds of powerful moves at her and they'll just bluntly fail, but once you make contact with the one particular thing she's susceptible to she goes down like a wet paper towel?
And I'm confused about that rabbit beast, too. It came out of her body (and apparently spit Madara from its mouth like a popcorn kernel) looking just like the other tailed beasts, who all took on their physical forms. So are we to assume it took a form like the others? Or do we assume it alone simply evaporated into nothing?
Then Hagoromo used a summoning jutsu to bring all the previous Kage back from "the pure land" - this series' afterlife? Forget for a moment my understanding that summoning jutsu require some sort of contract or marking applied to the summoned beforehand, but apparently now souls can be brought back from the afterlife? I'm also wondering why, if this Hagoromo guy has still existed all this time and still has these miraculous death-defying and interdimensional powers - including the chakras needed to seal Kaguya - then why ... has this whole series happened? Couldn't he do a single thing about the events of the world?
As far as Sakura goes, I think the problem is that we don't know how to properly value her kind of power. With characters like Naruto and Sasuke, we can see them training and can see them getting stronger because their powers are essentially about physical action. They are offensive characters who grow by defeating others. Sakura is a character whose skill set is defensive: she is a strategist, a healer, a supporter. It is harder to see explicit defensive growth. Take her forehead chakra thingy, the 100 Healings. How does she train for that? By concentrating chakra on a single focal point - essentially, by thinking. Physically, visually, there is no representation of that, except perhaps to show her with closed eyes and a slightly furrowed brow. And her healing powers must be shown to improve by the relatively vague measures of how long she can do it, how bad an injury she can do it on, how many people she can heal simultaneously, and so on. Defensive power will always appear weaker than offensive power by its very nature, but that doesn't mean it's not just as skillful or great.
I think we are justified in being generous when we compare Sakura to the rest of Team 7. One thing we all should agree on is that the author's execution in showing/explaining/proving Sakura's strength has been poor. Maybe he doesn't know how to show defensive power in a way that satisfied him and so didn't even try, or maybe he really is just terrible at writing for female characters. Either way, Sakura's story has not been written as well as Naruto's or Sasuke's. Yet at the same time, we should all agree that the author's intent has been made clear: we are supposed to understand that Sakura is presently an equally great member of Team 7, or that she is as close to Naruto's/Sasuke's equal as anyone could get. As I say above, proofs of this are thin on the ground, sure, but I think that's a fair reason for us to make the most of those that do exist.
Take Sakura's head-punch to Kaguya. Sure, it was simple compared to what the other two were doing, but maybe we shouldn't think that just anyone else could have done it. Maybe that punch only worked because of Sakura's Tsunade-style strength. We've seen Kaguya shrug off some good blows, and we also agree to regard her as the yet-strongest villain, so it is reasonable to think only Kage-level strength could knock her back. We know that Tsunade is physically stronger than the Raikage, and we know that Sakura is as physically strong as Tsunade; therefore, Sakura is physically stronger than the Raikage, which is an impressive feat for a regular old teenager (and, given this manga, a female one to boot). (Perhaps someone who can quote chapters can tell us whether there is reason to think Sakura is even stronger than Tsunade.)
In regards to her medical ninjutsu: We know that Tsunade was regarded as the best medical ninja in history, and we know that the most obvious symbols of her strength as a medical ninja were her 100 Healings jutsu and her ability to distance-heal through the Katsuyu summon (which works off the summoner's power, not Katsuyu's). Now we know that Sakura can summon Katsuyu and distance heal as well, and we also know that Sakura has surpassed Tsunade's 100 Healings, e.g. that she could do it earlier/faster than Tsunade (and that she can use it to more effect since she does not have to apportion some of it to make herself look younger). So we would be justified in thinking that Sakura is now the best medical ninja in the series.
I've tried to give the best case for Sakura's greatness. The point is to persuade others that Sakura deserves for us to consider her as great as we consider Naruto and Sasuke (despite the fact that the author has done less work to convince us so). And - crucially - that we need not consider her great in exactly the same way. You could figure out who is the world's greatest biologist, and you could figure out who is the world's greatest physicist, but you would not be able to determine which is greater than the other, for although each is doing science, they are doing it in different ways and with different tools and produce different contributions to knowledge.
So the fact of sealing Kaguya was to construct a moon around her? She's still there, just stuck inside those rocks in some alternate dimension? And Zetsu - the morphable, malleable, shadow-being - is also inside that moon? I am unclear on how exactly that amounts to defeating Kaguya. In a series where burying characters under humongous rocks does not guarantee their death even half of the time, how is this meant to convince us she's done for (let alone Zetsu, who can travel through solid earth anyway)? Her being in a separate dimension is also not exactly comforting given that she was the one who originally created and/or traveled to that dimension.
Is Kaguya supposed to be like Shedinja, where you can throw all kinds of powerful moves at her and they'll just bluntly fail, but once you make contact with the one particular thing she's susceptible to she goes down like a wet paper towel?
And I'm confused about that rabbit beast, too. It came out of her body (and apparently spit Madara from its mouth like a popcorn kernel) looking just like the other tailed beasts, who all took on their physical forms. So are we to assume it took a form like the others? Or do we assume it alone simply evaporated into nothing?
Then Hagoromo used a summoning jutsu to bring all the previous Kage back from "the pure land" - this series' afterlife? Forget for a moment my understanding that summoning jutsu require some sort of contract or marking applied to the summoned beforehand, but apparently now souls can be brought back from the afterlife? I'm also wondering why, if this Hagoromo guy has still existed all this time and still has these miraculous death-defying and interdimensional powers - including the chakras needed to seal Kaguya - then why ... has this whole series happened? Couldn't he do a single thing about the events of the world?
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As far as Sakura goes, I think the problem is that we don't know how to properly value her kind of power. With characters like Naruto and Sasuke, we can see them training and can see them getting stronger because their powers are essentially about physical action. They are offensive characters who grow by defeating others. Sakura is a character whose skill set is defensive: she is a strategist, a healer, a supporter. It is harder to see explicit defensive growth. Take her forehead chakra thingy, the 100 Healings. How does she train for that? By concentrating chakra on a single focal point - essentially, by thinking. Physically, visually, there is no representation of that, except perhaps to show her with closed eyes and a slightly furrowed brow. And her healing powers must be shown to improve by the relatively vague measures of how long she can do it, how bad an injury she can do it on, how many people she can heal simultaneously, and so on. Defensive power will always appear weaker than offensive power by its very nature, but that doesn't mean it's not just as skillful or great.
I think we are justified in being generous when we compare Sakura to the rest of Team 7. One thing we all should agree on is that the author's execution in showing/explaining/proving Sakura's strength has been poor. Maybe he doesn't know how to show defensive power in a way that satisfied him and so didn't even try, or maybe he really is just terrible at writing for female characters. Either way, Sakura's story has not been written as well as Naruto's or Sasuke's. Yet at the same time, we should all agree that the author's intent has been made clear: we are supposed to understand that Sakura is presently an equally great member of Team 7, or that she is as close to Naruto's/Sasuke's equal as anyone could get. As I say above, proofs of this are thin on the ground, sure, but I think that's a fair reason for us to make the most of those that do exist.
Take Sakura's head-punch to Kaguya. Sure, it was simple compared to what the other two were doing, but maybe we shouldn't think that just anyone else could have done it. Maybe that punch only worked because of Sakura's Tsunade-style strength. We've seen Kaguya shrug off some good blows, and we also agree to regard her as the yet-strongest villain, so it is reasonable to think only Kage-level strength could knock her back. We know that Tsunade is physically stronger than the Raikage, and we know that Sakura is as physically strong as Tsunade; therefore, Sakura is physically stronger than the Raikage, which is an impressive feat for a regular old teenager (and, given this manga, a female one to boot). (Perhaps someone who can quote chapters can tell us whether there is reason to think Sakura is even stronger than Tsunade.)
In regards to her medical ninjutsu: We know that Tsunade was regarded as the best medical ninja in history, and we know that the most obvious symbols of her strength as a medical ninja were her 100 Healings jutsu and her ability to distance-heal through the Katsuyu summon (which works off the summoner's power, not Katsuyu's). Now we know that Sakura can summon Katsuyu and distance heal as well, and we also know that Sakura has surpassed Tsunade's 100 Healings, e.g. that she could do it earlier/faster than Tsunade (and that she can use it to more effect since she does not have to apportion some of it to make herself look younger). So we would be justified in thinking that Sakura is now the best medical ninja in the series.
I've tried to give the best case for Sakura's greatness. The point is to persuade others that Sakura deserves for us to consider her as great as we consider Naruto and Sasuke (despite the fact that the author has done less work to convince us so). And - crucially - that we need not consider her great in exactly the same way. You could figure out who is the world's greatest biologist, and you could figure out who is the world's greatest physicist, but you would not be able to determine which is greater than the other, for although each is doing science, they are doing it in different ways and with different tools and produce different contributions to knowledge.
Void Ventus
Sic Parvis Magna
But getting hit by the IT means your dreams come true. Naruto's dream is to become Hokage, not to seal Kaguya. And personally, I wouldn't mind if this is it. No more bigger baddie, as Kaguya was already the highest you can go. No more Hagoromo "Psyche, BI+CHES!" trick and turning out to be the final FINAL enemy, or having Orochimaru quickly awaken from IT, steal Madara's body, and become the super mega ultra enemy that everyone will have to fight once and for all. Just have everyone free from IT, have all the past Kages talk with the current Kages and negotiate to make the Shinobi world finally unified, have the dead go with Hagoromo to Ninja Heaven, obligatory Naruto vs Sasuke, and that's it.
BTW, do Hiruzen and Minato finally get to go to Ninja Heaven? They were freed from RDS, so they're not trapped souls anymore.
^not going to quote all that though
She's stuck/sealed in that moon. She's trapped in the center of it, and all that pressure is preventing anything from getting out. She's STILL not dead, just sealed. So in the FAAAAAAAAAAAR future, when some diabolical maniac stumbles upon it, and somehow manages to destroy it, Kaguya will be revived once more.
She could have avoided getting hit by the trio, but it seems she was already running low on Chakra.
Hagoromo and his brother did the sealing way back then. Seeing as how they are separated, he couldn't have done anything. So he waited until the right time until he met two men who are descendants of Ashura and Indra were fighting for a single threat to save the Shinobi world. Also, isn't he technically dead? He's just a spirit doing spirit stuff now. It doesn't look like he can fight anymore.
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Tuskie Tyrant Yoko Kurama
Fancy footwork
It did kind of feel like that though, I expected some epic jutsu to be given to them to assist in the battle against Kaguya, but there wasn't. Though it was kind cool to see all the Kage being summoned to help the others escape.
Profesco, your post is just amazing. You said all the things I had totally forgotten about, I thank you.
Platinum fan.
RetiredPokemonMaster
Ha! I remember throwing that idea around when Obito was still the main villain. What a troll move that would be.
All I want is Naruto vs Sasuke. I was promised this clash. It's time for them to fight over who the new president of the Super Freak Club is. With Madara hopefully gone, they need a new president of that club. And yes, it still needs to happen. Even if Orochimaru has to take over Sasuke's body to make it happen. I still detest that Kishi dropped Sasuke's whole kill Konoha thing. It was the one thing I was looking most forward to after the Gokage Summit. I would have loved to have seen Sasuke and Naruto truly have a epic fight with Sasuke determined to kill them all and Naruto forced to make a choice. Sasuke or the Village. I feel cheated! Arrgh! If Naruto vs Sasuke doesn't happen you can all expect a rant from me!
Shneak
this is a Nessa x Sonia stan account ✨
Wait - do we know if Hagoromo is mortal? I mean he's not a ghost like the other Kages but he's not a zombie like the Hokages. If he's tangible then it's possible.
Oh right. If he had this power and knew where they were in their fight then I don't know why he didn't save Sasuke earlier before Obito came up with his plan.
In my opinion there are too many parallels between Naruto and Hagoromo for him to be a villain. I think we're just speeding to an end of the story.
I was under the impression that they were sealed, not simply trapped in a rock. I'm assuming those are two different things.
Also Profesco, I have to add that it isn't just Sakura's skills that aren't convincingly level with her two teammates. It's also her place in the overarching story. Naruto and Sasuke are the two MAIN main characters; they're two sides of the same coin. The Senju/Uchiha conflict is at the very center of the entire story, and Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry embodies that. They also have a lot of plot power because of the Kyuubi and the Sharingan. That makes them a lot more relevant to all the major storylines, along with many minor ones. AND they have lots of connections with important characters, villains, family members, etc. I'm probably forgetting other elements as well.
Sakura pretty much has none of this going for her. She's just kind of the third wheel of Naruto and Sasuke's (platonic) relationship. The main story cares very little for her. I'm sorry, but it's true. That's why it's hard to elevate her to Naruto and Sasuke's level, even under the presumption that they are in the same caliber of skill.
But I agree that Kishi WANTS us to consider all of Team 7 on the same level, and I guess that's all that matters.
Void Ventus
Sic Parvis Magna
He needed to talk to the four Hokages. Why are all the dead Kages needed for this summoning to work? Are you required to master the "Summon from Another Dimension" Jutsu when you become Kage? Does this mean the Kages knew about different dimensions this whole time? I don't know, we don't know, but just accept it.
That's what I'd want. The ending is coming. Don't force any more sudden twist and create another baddie stronger than the Goddess of all Chakra.
That's what I thought too. She's sealed inside Chibaku Tensei. The pressure is preventing anything from escaping.
As for Sakura, since she participated in the final battle alongside Kakashi, Naruto, and Sasuke, she'll be as renowned as the other three. Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are also the Sannin's successors, so they've got that going for them.
Anyone have guesses on how they'll resolve Sasuke? He threatened the Gokage, so he's got a SERIOUS CRIME on his head, worthy of being put on death trial. He's also an accomplice of Akatsuki. However, he did help in the war and save the Shinobi world. Is that going to be enough to erase all his crimes and wipe the slate clean, and be able to live in the Leaf again? Or will they wipe his slate clean, but he can never enter any of the villages, thus making him an outcast and forcing him to build a village of his own?
Oh no, I agree with you 100%. That was just what I gathered to be the best possible case for considering Sakura as skilled a ninja as her teammates. If somewhere I implied that she was as central or focal or 'special' a character as Naruto and Sasuke, then mea culpa; I should've written a caveat disclaiming that implication (but the post was already so very big, aha
). But yeah, this is utterly the story of Naruto and Sasuke. No need to apologize for pointing it out.Edit: I have no idea what the plan for Sasuke is. If I had to guess, I'd lean towards the 'forgive and embrace' route. The Obito treatment, you could say. But there is little confidence in my guess. All I care about is getting our final Naruto vs. Sasuke fight, like Platinum fan. I'm disgruntled that by flipping Sasuke's switch back from Bad to Good they erased the passion and motivation that would have fueled a serious fight before (rivalry for the seat of Hokage just isn't the same degree of opposition), but I still want to see them finally settle things.
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Platinum fan.
RetiredPokemonMaster
Without a doubt Kishi wants us to believe Team 7 are equals now. That was the entire point of Sakura being around in the Kaguya fight. Kaguya is the Hanzo to their Sannin. I just hope Tsunade wasn't this far behind Orochimaru and Jiraiya when they became Sannin. But I've already said everything I need to on the matter. Team 7 reuniting as equals should have been one of the biggest moments in the series. And while it was, I'm always going to look at as rushed and not built up the right way.
As far as what happens to Sasuke after the war. I bet his crimes are being swept under the rug. In addition to Team 7's new "equal" power level, Kishi's also trying to erase all the bad stuff Sasuke has done and even trying to justify some of it now. Hence why Karin and Team Baka flock back to him after a simple word of sorry from him, even though he tried to kill Karin and left the other two for dead. I bet Raikage and the others just forgive him after helping save the world and being a Sannin now. Team 7 can do no wrong in Kishi's new world.
Tuskie Tyrant Yoko Kurama
Fancy footwork
I'm curious, if Sasuke wants to become Hokage, don't the villagers have to decide like they did for Kakashi and Danzo? If someone like Shikamaru were to disagree even if Sasuke has assisted in saving the world and nominated Naruto, I wonder how Sasuke would react. Maybe this is how the fight begins.
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Platinum fan.
RetiredPokemonMaster
I'm still not thrilled over the idea of Naruto and Sasuke fighting over the Hokage seat. It would just feel forced and anyone who thinks Sasuke would be a good Hokage really hasn't watched the character. He only cares about his dead Uchiha clan, not the villagers themselves. Not long ago he swore to kill them all, but I guess Kishi's trying to make us forget all that. That ain't happening. Just look at the Kaguya fight. He pretty much called Kakashi and Sakura trash because they were in the same fight as him and Naruto. I would think a leader would try to encourage his team rather then tell them how useless they are in a fight. And you want that as Hokage? I'm sorry but Sasuke as Hokage has got to be a joke. This really can't be serious. How can anyone take that seriously? I'd laugh if some actually wanted Sasuke as Hokage. The guy leaves the village for the man that killed their Hokage, disrespects the only people that put up with his crap (Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi) swears to kill everyone in the village, joined Obito's Akatsuki and helped the bad guys obtain the power of Eight-Tails, and is all around a unfriendly guy to be around. But hey, if Karin can sweep her brush with death under the rug and forgive I guess Konoha can too.
I dunno, I still think Kakashi might become Hokage considering the last words that accompanied his parting gift. Not because I think it makes sense for Kakashi to become Hokage next (haven't really thought about it much), but because it seems like that's what the author was trying to hint at there. Otherwise Obito saying that dramatically would be awkwardly placed. Then again, maybe Kishi is just trying to screw around with us just like he does with the love triangles and final villains: have as many options as possible on the table, then try to surprise everyone down the road. If Sasuke and Obito had never mentioned the Hokage seat during these last battles then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If Kakashi's double Sharingan and Susano'o were only temporary, I can't see him as Hokage since he'd be almost nothing without his borrowed power. A Hokage has to be incredibly strong imho. Not to mention that the whole manga is about Naruto and his dream of being Hokage; why would Kakashi have to usurp his student's dream?
Void Ventus
Sic Parvis Magna
Naruto's and Sasuke's Yin and Yang powers that Hagoromo gave them were temporary too. Even without that (N&S are still much much stronger), Kakashi is still a competent and strong ninja. He's had the reputation of being the "Copy Ninja" before the series even began, he's been an Anbu, and the whole village respects him. And while that is Naruto's dream, he's still too stupid to become Hokage. He's going to rule an entire village, and be in the forefront when discussing government rules and such. Do you really think he'd be able to do that? Shikaku and Asuma already told Shikamura to be Naruto's right hand man should he be elected Hokage, but even a genius like him would need to teach Naruto how to partake in secret government discussions. Right now, it's Kakashi who fits the bill of Hokage. Strong, capable, well liked, and intellectual. Maybe in several years, Naruto will have matured, learned from Shikamaru, and become Hokage. Besides, he's still young. He's not even 18 years old yet, which even if they have a different rule in the Narutoverse, isn't old enough to vote yet.
Platinum fan.
RetiredPokemonMaster
I wouldn't have mind Kakashi as Hokage. I still think he should have gotten a run with it after Danzo. As for being incredibly strong...well outside Sharingan he's not OP at all. But really look at the current Hokage. Tsunade wouldn't crack my all time elite shinobi list either compared to A/Raikage and Oonoki. And Minato wasn't as broken as his legend made him out to be. If anything Minato felt more like a Kakashi style fighter. A shinobi with many tricks and a few unique jutsu abilities like teleporting and a imperfect Rasengan. And Minato's considered one of the all time best Hokage ever. So I think Kakashi had a chance.
The problem now is, the time has come and gone. I agree with anyone who says Kakashi is more qualified then Naruto and Sasuke as Hokage. But at the same time I feel like the time to do it would have been after Danzo. Just let Naruto and Sasuke feud over it. Far as I'm concern, Kakashi already is Gokage level, even if a low level one.
The problem now is, the time has come and gone. I agree with anyone who says Kakashi is more qualified then Naruto and Sasuke as Hokage. But at the same time I feel like the time to do it would have been after Danzo. Just let Naruto and Sasuke feud over it. Far as I'm concern, Kakashi already is Gokage level, even if a low level one.
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