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Neon Genesis Evangelion

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XBebop

We Are Nerd
Probably the most "confusing" anime ever made. It takes most people 3 times of watching it all the way through to see the actual story of the anime. But above all this deep storyline mumbo-jumbo there is a great mecha anime going on!

With some of the best mecha fights ever, and a storyline that's almost impossible to completely understand, Evangelion stands as one of the greatest anime of all-time.

Discuss.

Note: I will not accept any flaming of the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion. If you don't abide by these rules, I will report you.
 

HK

Radiance of Shadows
XBebop said:
Probably the most "confusing" anime ever made.

"Confusing" in what way? The plot is fairly easy to understand, or at least the major points to it and what happens.

It takes most people 3 times of watching it all the way through to see the actual story of the anime.

I wonder how many viewings it would take for series like Boogiepop Phantom and Serial Experiments Lain, then.

But above all this deep storyline mumbo-jumbo there is a great mecha anime going on!

More like: "Beyond all the 'cool' fights in the series, there is a drama between characters that is quite unlike anything that you will ever experience, for it shows the side of humans that is only shown when they are stripped away of the masks and facades that we use everyday to survive in society."

But that might just be me being wordy.

With some of the best mecha fights ever,

Eh, most of them were entertaining, although the really "outstanding" ones were still few and far between. Though, episodes two, nineteen, and the movie had three really damn good ones that are short of brilliance. Plus, there were quite a few emotional ones that were so much physical battles as they were mental ones.

and a storyline that's almost impossible to completely understand,

Nobody except Anno and perhaps a few of his staff will ever completely understand. He himself said that they aren't going to give any answers due to people needing to find them for themselves -- the manner in which he said so was rather interesting, as he appeared to be alluding to people finding the answers in their own lives and not listening to others to tell them how to live it.

Evangelion stands as one of the greatest anime of all-time.

My personal favorite piece of fiction, at the very least.


"How 'bout them EVAs?"

Really, though... to pose a question to anyone willing to respond, what part(s) of Neon Genesis Evangelion/Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion did you find to be the most confusing to you?

Besides, all of the deeper discussion about the characters, symbolism, allusions, references, and its plot is usually handled at the fan club set-up here, but, eh, it won't do any harm to talk about it here, I suppose.
 

TeddiUrsa

Well-Known Member
I have to agree with HellKorn. I don´t get why so many people think that Evangelion is so hard to understand. It´s rather simple, but the storytelling is a bit different than normal and Shinji and Asuka have deep characters which are analysed within the anime more than once.

Evangelion is one of my favourite animes ever. The characters are just loveable and seem very real to me. Evangelion is not great because of the "mecha" action ( the action is cool, but ..nya..there are many cool mecha animes out there) but because of the characters and their interaction.

I read that all the religious symbolism and allusions were put in because they were cool but without a specific meaning. ( I think Anno said something like that in an interview, he made the story while he was in a very hard time of his life and the story kinda reflected this) But you CAN interpret a lot of thing into it if you want.

I hope the new manga volume will come out someday...I stopped counting the months...-.-

There is a very complex and very interesting fanmanga which sees the happenings from right before rei´s death till the end as a dream sequence of shinji and he tries to prevent all those happenings..it´s very awesome and reads like it´s from the original cast..don´t know, maybe HellKorn knows it. It´s a hentai manga , but the amount of hentai is very very slim and it´s completly story driven and not finished yet.
 
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HK

Radiance of Shadows
Kanadian Kyuubi said:
All I have to say is that if you like Gendo Ikari, you'll just love this non-Evangelion based movie found that even worse, uses a song from Gravitation...a weird mesh at that

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/157598

Haven't bothered to check out the link, but I'm assuming that you're referring to "ReDeath."

But from what I hear, if you like some of the best mecha fights in the world, this show is for you...

"Mecha," he says. :p (Though, Anno did use that term loosely once, so... meh.)

TeddiUrsa said:
I have to agree with HellKorn. I don´t get why so many people think that Evangelion is so hard to understand. It´s rather simple, but the storytelling is a bit different than normal and Shinji and Asuka have deep characters which are analysed within the anime more than once.

The storytelling is quite unconventional, as there seemingly countless specifics to the plot that take a lot of analyzing and whatnot to get, but the overall story isn't that hard to get unless you don't think at all when watching anime. As for the characters being scrutinized... that happens more often than you probably think it does. Hell, it happens more than I think it does, because going over the series again I notice small glimpses each time.

Evangelion is one of my favourite animes ever. The characters are just loveable and seem very real to me. Evangelion is not great because of the "mecha" action ( the action is cool, but ..nya..there are many cool mecha animes out there) but because of the characters and their interaction.

"Lovable" might not be the right term to use here... I would say sympathetic once you realize that this anime is actually going to have realistic characters and portrayals.

But, I sure as hell agree on that. I've never seen characters handled so well and put so much depth into them as what Evangelion does. They are presented to be the likable type that you might find in other series, but a fair amount of people don't realize that what makes a great piece of fiction isn't likable characters, it's characters with depth. Interestingly enough, people who slander Evangelion due to its characters show more about themselves than they do about the show, if you know what I'm getting at.

I read that all the religious symbolism and allusions were put in because they were cool but without a specific meaning. ( I think Anno said something like that in an interview, he made the story while he was in a very hard time of his life and the story kinda reflected this) But you CAN interpret a lot of thing into it if you want.

A part of the staff stated in an interview that they used religious images and references due to it being "exotic," of sorts, which makes sense as Buddhism and Shintoism is much more common than Christianity is over in Japan. Evangelion is not a story about religion in the slightest -- it is a psychological story and a drama at its heart that deals with human nature.

I hope the new manga volume will come out someday...I stopped counting the months...-.-

Volume ten was released in Japan back in March, and Viz will be releasing it in a few months. I've already read the scans of that, and Sadamoto continues to disappoint me with his characterization and even some plot holes. If you didn't already know, I really just don't like the manga. Sadamoto should've just stuck to being the character designer and not get involved in making a manga adaption, but, eh, whatever.

There is a very complex and very interesting fanmanga which sees the happenings from right before rei´s death till the end as a dream sequence of shinji and he tries to prevent all those happenings..it´s very awesome and reads like it´s from the original cast..don´t know, maybe HellKorn knows it. It´s a hentai manga , but the amount of hentai is very very slim and it´s completly story driven and not finished yet.

You mean Re-Take? Yeah, I've read volumes zero (tells the story from a different point of view), one, two, and three. As far as a doujin goes, it is pretty ideal because it actually does have a solid story, and does well by staying true to the characters (there's only one moment in volume two with Gendou that I felt was fairly out of character). There are a few sex scenes, but for the most part they serve a purpose for the story -- hell, the first one is one of the main plot points in Re-Take.

The last volume, volume four, is going to be out in August on either the twelth or the fifteenth. From the build-up, and seeing an actual trailer for it, it looks to have a pretty damn good finale.

Just as a random note: I don't really italicize doujinshi, but Re-Take is well enough on its own that I do so. Nice psychological drama with a bit of romance and tragedy.
 

TeddiUrsa

Well-Known Member
HellKorn said:
"Lovable" might not be the right term to use here... I would say sympathetic once you realize that this anime is actually going to have realistic characters and portrayals.

meh, you´re right. my endlish vocabulary isn´t as big as it used to be ^^;

HellKorn said:
A part of the staff stated in an interview that they used religious images and references due to it being "exotic," of sorts, which makes sense as Buddhism and Shintoism is much more common than Christianity is over in Japan. Evangelion is not a story about religion in the slightest -- it is a psychological story and a drama at its heart that deals with human nature.

That´s what I say all the time, but I know many fans who were dissapointed by that interview. They put too much analysing into the references...maybe its their own fault. ^^;

HellKorn said:
Volume ten was released in Japan back in March, and Viz will be releasing it in a few months. I've already read the scans of that, and Sadamoto continues to disappoint me with his characterization and even some plot holes. If you didn't already know, I really just don't like the manga. Sadamoto should've just stuck to being the character designer and not get involved in making a manga adaption, but, eh, whatever.

Really? mh, I´m from germany, which means that I´ll have to wait a few weeks longer for volume ten. I don´t hate the manga, I think it has its strong points, but I prefer the anime over it for sure. I just want it too finish already...how long can someone sit on one volume? -.- I wonder what ending they´ll use. maybe someting completly different? ah , doesn´t matter..I just want it to end ^^;

HellKorn said:
You mean Re-Take? Yeah, I've read volumes zero (tells the story from a different point of view), one, two, and three. As far as a doujin goes, it is pretty ideal because it actually does have a solid story, and does well by staying true to the characters (there's only one moment in volume two with Gendou that I felt was fairly out of character). There are a few sex scenes, but for the most part they serve a purpose for the story -- hell, the first one is one of the main plot points in Re-Take.

The last volume, volume four, is going to be out in August on either the twelth or the fifteenth. From the build-up, and seeing an actual trailer for it, it looks to have a pretty damn good finale.

Just as a random note: I don't really italicize doujinshi, but Re-Take is well enough on its own that I do so. Nice psychological drama with a bit of romance and tragedy.

Yes, I mean Re-Take. I don´t see it as a real hentai-manga either, because sex isn´t the main-part of it, but the story, which is pretty innovative and has its nice twists as well. I´m really lokking forward to august. Some of the best doshinjis I´ve ever read. Pretty in-character for me, even Asuka´s motives are more thant logical when you look at it. I´m lookinf forward to it´s conclusion.
 

Cutiebunny

Frosty Fashionista
I, too, did not find Evangelion confusing. A bit of a let-down towards the end, but...an excellent anime nonetheless.

I enjoy the 'fragmentation' of it...it's what I would expect from a group of 14 year olds who, let alone are still trying to understand themselves, are expected to go out and save the world from batches of Angels hell-bent on destroying the planet. Of all the pilots, Shinjii seems to be the worse off due to his sexual repression and tramatic childhood. He's a textbook fredian case and, if I recall correctly, CN edited his pseudo-rape of Asuka.

If what you expect is an anime involving very little thinking and a clear plotline, then, obviously, animes such as Evangelion and Key the Metal Idol will be confusing for you. These animes are not so much in the business to tell you a 'kick-arse' story, but to expose the human psyche(or non-human in the case of Key).
 

Lickitung

Banned
Man, I love this show. I saw it after most of the internet had, and so it was hard to go anywhere without having the series spoiled for me. But still, even after knowing what would happen, it is a damn good anime. I don't see why so many people hate it-it's not a mecha show. The drama is first, the action is second. Shinji is not the worst character ever, simply because he has an excuse for the way he acs. Think about all that he went though in his life.

I'm actually waiting for my End of Eva dvd to ship to my house.
 

SPIKE06

Well-Known Member
At the first glance one might think considering from what they see is a giant humanoid something, that that (giant things fighting) for the most part is all there is. Now, for those who dont like the characters, i guess people are used to having the macho toughguy psuedo of a "robot" pilot and when they dont get that they call him a wimp or spineless. And at a first glance characters are considered "*****y" or "****ly" when (to me at least) they are wanting love, compassion, companionship, and their own identity and their outward expression is just to get by. (i'll cut it here)
I like the show but being the shallow action oriented person that i am, its not my favorite
 
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XBebop

We Are Nerd
One thing I think they should have left out of End of Evangelion:
The Shinji masturbation scene. Was it really useful to have that in? >.<
 

TeddiUrsa

Well-Known Member
XBebop said:
One thing I think they should have left out of End of Evangelion:
The Shinji masturbation scene. Was it really useful to have that in? >.<

I could go on how this scene adds a few sides to shinji´s character, making him more real, showing how much of an animal even he can be after so many terrible and painful happenings in his latest history. He is far from perfect and the scene shows it pretty well.

It is wrong for an anime character to masturbate? why should every character be a little perfect or funny,with little flaws? I liked the scene and I don´t get what people moan over shinji in general ( you didn´t , I know ;) )
 

XBebop

We Are Nerd
I can see how it added to Shinji's character, but it really could have been left out. Plus, it was the only thing in Evangelion that made me go "ew".
 

TeddiUrsa

Well-Known Member
XBebop said:
I can see how it added to Shinji's character, but it really could have been left out. Plus, it was the only thing in Evangelion that made me go "ew".

by that logic, many character driven scene which don´t add something to the plot can be cut out. I think it was supposed to make you go "ew", I felt the same by the way.
But in the end...Shinji and Asuka are two of my favourite all time anime characters for reasons.
 

Cutiebunny

Frosty Fashionista
Your spoiler didn't work.

But I do think that that scene was necessary.

Why? Because it illustrates the sexual deviant that Shinjii is. He's been repressed and thanks to the situations in which he has been in, he's now achieving some sort of liberation...but he still hasn't come to gripes with the sexual repression he's experienced since childhood. His father, which is his embodiment of manhood and power, has largely ignored him..until recently, when Shinjii has actually proven himself to be useful. His mother, which is the embodiment of female sexual power and love, is dead...thus, Shinjii has never been accepted, seeks acceptance...but isn't quite sure how to deal with his hormones and due to lack of male development, doesn't understand what is necessary to be a man. Shinjii's personality begins to change little by little due to stress and the events that he's been through.

Hence, Shinjii's 'pseudo-rape' of Asuka is, in my opinion, an act of the new Shinjii...Shinjii is becoming a man, but there are still many parts missing...and they probably always be due to the childhood he's experienced.
 

XBebop

We Are Nerd
You should be a psychologist or something. =P
 

HK

Radiance of Shadows
TeddiUrsa said:
That´s what I say all the time, but I know many fans who were dissapointed by that interview. They put too much analysing into the references...maybe its their own fault. ^^;

Evangelion was a psychological drama, not a criticism on religion, which still amazes me when people still think that after the series and/or movie. Though, that belief isn't as bad as still thinking after having watched the series that the EVAs are robots.

Really? mh, I´m from germany, which means that I´ll have to wait a few weeks longer for volume ten. I don´t hate the manga, I think it has its strong points, but I prefer the anime over it for sure. I just want it too finish already...how long can someone sit on one volume? -.- I wonder what ending they´ll use. maybe someting completly different? ah , doesn´t matter..I just want it to end ^^;

I'm guessing a forced Shinji/Rei ending in some form since Sadamoto seems to what to push the unrealistically and badly developed pairing on us.

Yes, I mean Re-Take. I don´t see it as a real hentai-manga either, because sex isn´t the main-part of it, but the story, which is pretty innovative and has its nice twists as well. I´m really lokking forward to august. Some of the best doshinjis I´ve ever read. Pretty in-character for me, even Asuka´s motives are more thant logical when you look at it. I´m lookinf forward to it´s conclusion.

From a few glimpses of the pages that were shown during the trailer, it looks to be something REALLY good. Hentai-based doujinshi and bad fan fiction aside, I always find the fan works of Evangelion to be some of the best in anime fandom.

Cutiebunny said:
I, too, did not find Evangelion confusing. A bit of a let-down towards the end, but...an excellent anime nonetheless.

How was it a let-down? I'm going to assume that you saw both the television series ending, as well as the movie ending which is, by all means, the official ending, so what did you find disappointing?

I enjoy the 'fragmentation' of it...it's what I would expect from a group of 14 year olds who, let alone are still trying to understand themselves, are expected to go out and save the world from batches of Angels hell-bent on destroying the planet. Of all the pilots, Shinjii seems to be the worse off due to his sexual repression and tramatic childhood.

Eh, it's a hard toss-up between Shinji, Asuka, and Misato for the most traumatized of the characters... though Asuka and Misato had the most tragic pasts out of all of them.

He's a textbook fredian case and, if I recall correctly, CN edited his pseudo-rape of Asuka.

Uh, there was no pseudo-rape of any kind during the series. There was a certain hospital scene during the movie that held other implications, though...

If what you expect is an anime involving very little thinking and a clear plotline, then, obviously, animes such as Evangelion and Key the Metal Idol will be confusing for you. These animes are not so much in the business to tell you a 'kick-arse' story, but to expose the human psyche(or non-human in the case of Key).

The more I hear about it, the more interested I become. Would you fully recommend Key the Metal Idol?

Punisher said:
Man, I love this show. I saw it after most of the internet had, and so it was hard to go anywhere without having the series spoiled for me. But still, even after knowing what would happen, it is a damn good anime. I don't see why so many people hate it-it's not a mecha show. The drama is first, the action is second. Shinji is not the worst character ever, simply because he has an excuse for the way he acs. Think about all that he went though in his life.

I would say that he is one of, if not arguably the most realistic protagonist that you'll find in anime. People who criticize him and label him off as "a whiny emo kid" reveal more about themselves than the character.

I'm actually waiting for my End of Eva dvd to ship to my house.

If you have not watched it yet... well, sit back and be amazed.

XBebop said:
One thing I think they should have left out of End of Evangelion: [spoil]The Shinji masturbation scene. Was it really useful to have that in? >.<[/spoil]

Yeah, it was. In a way, it served to two points as it showed Shinji's desperation at that point, not to mention his another one of his attempts to only reach out to Asuka when she isn't even awake to face him (until the end of the movie, that is). Plus, on the other side of the spectrum, while the movie was hardly Anno's revenge against the fans (a foolish idea that is pure bullsh*t), that scene also revealed the director's personal disgust with otaku. We have a female, unable to do anything, treated and glorified as a sex object, and something that is out of reach is something that otaku get off on. Rightfully, I think Anno's representation is rather appropriate, and Shinji's sentiments sum it up the best.

On that note, I find it interesting that we have numerous scenes of nudity, violence, blood, suggestive scenes, etc. and yet so many people are more repulsed by that hospital scene. I'm not really disgusted by that scene, but rather saddened by it.

Cutiebunny said:
Hence, Shinjii's 'pseudo-rape' of Asuka is, in my opinion, an act of the new Shinjii...Shinjii is becoming a man, but there are still many parts missing...and they probably always be due to the childhood he's experienced.

So you were referring to that? Honestly, we don't quite know what Shinji was thinking of when he did that deed, other than what lay before. There is quite a difference between masturbating and masturbating while getting off on the idea. Shinji's act was more along the lines of the childish and immature views that both he and Asuka ironically had throughout the story, and for the boy, it was like a presentation of something he liked, took it, and by the end of it, Shinji himself feels even more pathetic than he did to begin with.
 

XBebop

We Are Nerd
Evangelion was a psychological drama, not a criticism on religion, which still amazes me when people still think that after the series and/or movie. Though, that belief isn't as bad as still thinking after having watched the series that the EVAs are robots.

I would have to shoot myself if I had just now learned that the EVAs aren't mechs after watching the series at least 5 times over.
 

Cutiebunny

Frosty Fashionista
Well, if what you enjoy are animes that delve into the human psyche, then I would recommend Key the Metal Idol. The basic story is that Key, an AI, has to obtain the love of 1 million(I think it's 1mil...been a while since I've seen it) in order to become human. To do this, she becomes an singer, or Idol, in Japan. But along the way, Key questions her existence as well as what it means to be human.


...But you know, I think the beauty of Eva was that you had two worlds colliding with characters who were already in difficult situations to begin with. Stick a handful of moderately to above average intelligent people but all with traumatic pasts in a crisis and see what wins out. Will they be hampered by it or will they strive to outdo their limitations?

I agree with you on Shinjii's masturbation, but I also look at it as an act of power. The entire time Shinjii is desperately trying to emulate his father in order to gain his approval. Shinjii feels that his father has a certain sexual prowess, and I feel that Shinjii, in his pathetic attempt, tries to capture this power...because, for Shinjii, sex is akin to power and control over others. Asuka, albeit a tease, is untamable...at least in Shinjii's mind. So, for Shinjii to take control of her, even if it involves zero penetration, is dominate and to control.

Eva is one of those animes that you can watch several times and come up with several different complexes for each character.

I think the only 'normal' character is Pen-pen...
 

HK

Radiance of Shadows
XBebop said:
I would have to shoot myself if I had just now learned that the EVAs aren't mechs after watching the series at least 5 times over.

It was pretty much spelled out for you during episode twenty-three, and there were plenty of various clues throughout the rest of the series as well. >_O

Cutiebunny said:
Well, if what you enjoy are animes that delve into the human psyche, then I would recommend Key the Metal Idol. The basic story is that Key, an AI, has to obtain the love of 1 million(I think it's 1mil...been a while since I've seen it) in order to become human. To do this, she becomes an singer, or Idol, in Japan. But along the way, Key questions her existence as well as what it means to be human.

Then it shall go on my "to see" list.

...But you know, I think the beauty of Eva was that you had two worlds colliding with characters who were already in difficult situations to begin with. Stick a handful of moderately to above average intelligent people but all with traumatic pasts in a crisis and see what wins out. Will they be hampered by it or will they strive to outdo their limitations?

Asuka graduated college at the age of fourteen (the youngest I think that has ever done that was... twelve, though I'm probably wrong). I would classify it a bit higher than "above average intelligence," but that is just her maturity in being "book smart" -- she had yet to really mature emotionally, and given the timeframe and her childhood, it is understandable.

I agree with you on Shinjii's masturbation, but I also look at it as an act of power. The entire time Shinjii is desperately trying to emulate his father in order to gain his approval. Shinjii feels that his father has a certain sexual prowess, and I feel that Shinjii, in his pathetic attempt, tries to capture this power...because, for Shinjii, sex is akin to power and control over others. Asuka, albeit a tease, is untamable...at least in Shinjii's mind. So, for Shinjii to take control of her, even if it involves zero penetration, is dominate and to control.

Actually it is Shinji trying to emulate his father to gain his approval, but just doing what others tell him to do. Ritsuko and Misato remarked about this in episode four (which pretty much defines what Evangelion really is about) about him just getting by in life by not deciding to do what he wants to do, but what others want out of him. The other major time when this is brought up when Asuka dumps her date and comes back home to find Shinji playing the bass violin (that is what the instrument is called, I think), and remarks about his ability. Shinji tells her that he's done all this because he thought that it would get him some recognition, which Asuka says something to the effect that that's a stupid reason to do so (oh the irony). But I digress.

Shinji's childish view of sex being more along the lines of something disgusting, so I wouldn't think of it as being a control mechanism of sorts (at least in his thoughts). The boy sees something that he really likes (if there was any sexual emphasis in the entire story on a body part, it was Asuka's breasts, if that wasn't made completely obvious), and I would guess due to his own sense of humanity of not wanting to hurt others by doing anything directly harmful to them (see such as instance in the fight against the 13th Angel, Bardiel, and Shinji's lack of action there), we see him simply masturbate to the locked up desires that he has had since his first encounter with his "fascinations."

Eva is one of those animes that you can watch several times and come up with several different complexes for each character.

Oh hell yes, I definitely know that from experience.

I think the only 'normal' character is Pen-pen...

Every character in outright normal as I wouldn't call having a troubled mind being not of the norm, since most humans do have such problems. But if you mean stable, then indeed, Pen-Pen is the only character that belongs in the group, which is saying something considering he was able to live with Misato and choke down the food that she gave him (not to mention that since living with her, he apparently got a taste for beer).
 

XBebop

We Are Nerd
It was pretty much spelled out for you during episode twenty-three, and there were plenty of various clues throughout the rest of the series as well. >_O

Yeah, I learned that way back in January of 2004 when I first bought the box set of DVDs and watched it all in one sitting.
 
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