New 11 episode series, "Pocket Monsters: Mezase Pokemon Master", starts January 13th 2023

[GohMaster!]

XY gave Ash a hyper OP form specific. That's a platinum platter.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

XY gave Ash a hyper OP form specific. That's a platinum platter.

But then that platinum platter got charred to ashes by a modern Megazard X...three times, I should point out. Not much of a sweet platter there.

 

[IcySealeo]

@Dephender First of all, thanks for the translation.
I do understand that Yuyama wasn't happy with the idea of Ash becoming a World Champion, and that if it was his job it would have been different. As someone who is much familiar with the whole anime staff, do you think that if it was Yuyama in charge, this wouldn't be Ash's last saga? Who's decision to end Ash's journey do you think it was?

 

[Dephender]

@Dephender First of all, thanks for the translation.
I do understand that Yuyama wasn't happy with the idea of Ash becoming a World Champion, and that if it was his job it would have been different. As someone who is much familiar with the whole anime staff, do you think that if it was Yuyama in charge, this wouldn't be Ash's last saga? Who's decision to end Ash's journey do you think it was?

I mean all of this is just speculation on my part.
But yeah, I think the desicion to retire Satoshi at least partially happened because there's not really a whole lot else you can do with him now that PM2019 decided to make him the best trainer ever. What kind of overall 150-episode-series-long goal can you even give him for a series that has to promote gen 9 Pokemon and can't just send him to space to battle anime-only alien Pokemon or something?

The way earlier series ended meant it always made sense to just send him to the next gen's region where he could challenge that gen's league.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Geeta 2 strong for Ash.

 

[mehmeh1]

tbh even with a straight SwSh adaptation Ash was coming out of it as a champion tier trainer, due to him needing to beat Raihan, I was already thinking about that back when he was revealed in 2019. How it happened though.....yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that wasn't exactly handled well

 

[TheNewGuy]

is people really ignoring the big improvement from OS as an amateur trainer to XY where Ash was E4 level trainer with an entirely new team just so they can say Ash had all in a plate during SM and JN?

Exactly right. There didn't seem to be much of this discourse in XY, and it's really not a huge jump from like Malva level - which is where he was with his Kalos team - to the M8. Add to that the fact that his JN Pokemon were inherently powerful species that were caught fully evolved, or in Luke's case refused to hatch until it met a powerful trainer that could bring out its own innate power, or in Pikachu's case had become a nigh-unbeatable god.

It's always been a bit of a reach but I never really thought of the XY comparison before, which really shuts down a lot of this discussion.

And that's all ignoring the fact that Hoenn, Sinnoh as a result, and Unova are to blame because they didn't sufficiently progress Ash. Post-Yuyuma brought him to the appropriate and correct level.

 

[Ignition]

I'm so glad we're leaving all this powerscaling and what Ash "deserves" behind with the new series.

 

[Kazuniya]

I'm so glad we're leaving all this powerscaling and what Ash "deserves" behind with the new series.

Don't worry, Ash/Liko powerscaling comparisons will soon begin.

 

[Observer]

I'm so glad we're leaving all this powerscaling and what Ash "deserves" behind with the new series.

And a whole new set of powerscaling can begin with Liko, Roy, and the airship crew.

 

[GohMaster!]

With now knowing Pokemon isn't ever ending (essentially), it will be a lot easier for the writer and showrunners to be able to plan things out from the start with Horizons.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I'm so glad we're leaving all this powerscaling and what Ash "deserves" behind with the new series.

I mean, I was kind of over it, until I read that any concrete reasons to believe in Ash were being actively sabotaged by one man, and the reason Ash finally got to where he should be was not because of a collective realisation that it was time for him to actually be good, but because this obstructing force simply...left.

That... kind of annoys me? I know it might seem strange, but I preferred the idea that the writers, directors, etc collectively decided to pull their finger out and write the character properly. Not that there was one guy insisting that Ash be pre-surgery Charlie Gordon forever, functionally trapping the show in infuriating stasis, with that front only improving once he left.

I spoke in the past about how the show needed to make up for the horrific Unova and Kalos leagues, and it did - but it wasn't through a changing of minds, it was a changing of personnel. I wish it was the former, that's all.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

With now knowing Pokemon isn't ever ending (essentially), it will be a lot easier for the writer and showrunners to be able to plan things out from the start with Horizons.

You'd be surprised.

 

[Ignition]

Don't worry, Ash/Liko powerscaling comparisons will soon begin.

Sprigatito solos Ash's entire roster.

 

[solrocknroll]

I mean, I was kind of over it, until I read that any concrete reasons to believe in Ash were being actively sabotaged by one man, and the reason Ash finally got to where he should be was not because of a collective realisation that it was time for him to actually be good, but because this obstructing force simply...left.

That... kind of annoys me? I know it might seem strange, but I preferred the idea that the writers, directors, etc collectively decided to pull their finger out and write the character properly. Not that there was one guy insisting that Ash be pre-surgery Charlie Gordon forever, functionally trapping the show in infuriating stasis, with that front only improving once he left.

I spoke in the past about how the show needed to make up for the horrific Unova and Kalos leagues, and it did - but it wasn't through a changing of minds, it was a changing of personnel. I wish it was the former, that's all.

I promise you, this is a show for children and you’ll get over it. Yuyama didn’t harm you personally and this entire dramatic monologue tells me you clearly haven’t gotten over it yet, so good luck with all of that you’re dealing with I guess

 

[Sham]

I swear this place has me rolling on the floor sometimes laughing

 

[GohMaster!]

You'd be surprised.

They easily could flub it (star wars sequels), but there is definitely promise.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I promise you, this is a show for children and you’ll get over it. Yuyama didn’t harm you personally and this entire dramatic monologue tells me you clearly haven’t gotten over it yet, so good luck with all of that you’re dealing with I guess

I mean yes, I literally used the past tense. I  was over the whole Ash powerscaling stuff, it's been done to death. I'm just surprised to learn specifically why his development was botched so badly post Johto and why Alola/Journeys' subsequent course-correction was so jarring to many. It changes my perspective on the whole snafu and not in a positive way.

 

[masdog]

I'm NOT upset over his direction, hell, I said elsewhere that my impression is that he was never particularly on board with PM2019 making Satoshi suddenly get some absurd power boost and become the best trainer in the world, and that MPM was him steering the show back on track.
It was also not an OPINION, it was some quick summarizing of what he was actually doing as opposed to what some people were assuming he was doing, in response to a post asking why we needed another Latias/Latios plot:

So the bolded and italiziced parts are somewhat contradictory. You say it was your impression that he wasn't onboard with the direction the show went, but that it also wasn't an opinion. An impression is an opinion.

1) The reason we got a Latias/Latios plot is not because Yuyama felt we needed one. We got one because he wanted a running subplot about a Pokemon observing Satoshi throughout these episodes before eventually asking him for help. He picked Latias as this Pokemon not because he wanted to do something with Latias (and Latios) specifically. Not because he wanted another Latias/Latios plot. Not because of anything related to movie 5. But because of the specific qualities of Latias as a species (flight, invisibility, etc). And now that the series has ended, we know that nothing particularly important came of the entire Latias thing.

2) The reason Kasumi and Takeshi were in MPM was not because Yuyama had any specific plans for those two characters. It's not because he had any episodes in mind that necessitated them being there. It's because he felt Satoshi needed travelmates for these episodes. The specific characters were picked afterwards. He doesn't remember exactly why they went for those beyond "everyone just kinda agreed", but the reason they're in the show is ultimately because he didn't want Satoshi to travel alone, not because he wanted Satoshi to travel with Kasumi and Takeshi again or because he had some Kasumi- or Takeshi-specific plans in mind. And now that the series has ended, we know that nothing particularly important came of those two specific characters being there for another couple episodes.

4) Most of the episodes in MPM were written because they needed more episodes in the show and came up with something they felt like doing. Yuyama spells out quite clearly in the comment for episode 8 that they came up with by essentially going "okay, we need another episode, any ideas?" "We didn't do an episode about Ghost types yet, we could do that." "Good idea. Hey, these zukan entries about Juppeta being a possessed puppet searching for its former owner are pretty interesting and we never did an episode about that concept. Let's do that." They weren't concluding dangling plot threads or setting up some sort of big finale that would relate back to plot points established throughout these episodes, they were just coming up with episodes until they had 11 of them. And now that the series has ended, we know that the final episode was pretty standalone and nothing particularly important came of anything that happened in any of the prior 10.

Hey @SerGoldenhandtheJust...remember when I said something about this didn't sit right with me? Well, I figured it out. It's a giant messaging and PR problem. You'd think a series that was primarily built around marketing would have this stuff figured out.

Ash has been the protagonist for 26 years, and with his time as the protagonist wrapping up, you'd think that the messaging would be better. They made choices to bring back Ash's original companions and the fan-favorite legendary Pokemon from the movie that won a fan contest and got another theatrical run. You'd think that they'd be acknowledging that these were choices made with the fans and fan service in mind, even if it's as simple as "it fit what we wanted to do and we knew that this is what fans would want to see."

Instead, we get no acknowledgement of the fans in any of this. Latias and Latios fitting the story they want to tell is fine, but it comes off as somewhat BS if the only reason these two Pokemon were chosen because of their specific attributes a few months after Movie 5 won the fan poll. Maybe that's the case and these decisions were made before the fan poll started, but you could still acknowledge that this felt like the right choice after Movie 5 won the fan pool.

Brock and Misty being his final companions seems like the logical way to go. The issue isn't that they wanted to have Ash travel with others again. It's how they communicated this. "We don't remember why, but everyone agreed" is just a hollow way to say it when there are so many better ways to position this. "We wanted to go back to the beginning." "We wanted to show how much Ash has grown."

We all know that there are filler episodes, but you can weave a better narrative than "we just had to fill a few episode slots that we already paid for."

The issue, to me, isn't that nothing came from these last 11 episodes. I actually enjoyed the story and how it played out. It's how they are talking about them after the fact.

tbh even with a straight SwSh adaptation Ash was coming out of it as a champion tier trainer, due to him needing to beat Raihan, I was already thinking about that back when he was revealed in 2019.

I think they were going to be forced to confront this after Gen VI. Between the fan outrage over the Lumiose Conference results and the games changing up how the Leagues work starting in Gen VII, there was no way that they could get away with restricting Ash's growth like they had in previous generations.

But yeah, they definitely could have handled JN better.

 

[Dephender]

So the bolded and italiziced parts are somewhat contradictory. You say it was your impression that he wasn't onboard with the direction the show went, but that it also wasn't an opinion. An impression is an opinion.

You're misreading me. What's my impression is that Yuyama was never on board with making Satoshi world champion. He's never said that, it's just the feeling I get from reading his comments. My opinion.
What I said was fact rather than opinion is the stuff I said in that post that got quoted all over the place, the stuff I spelled out in those numbered paragraphs you quoted. None of this stuff is personal interpretations, it's all stuff Yuyama did say.