New Gameplay Features/Mechanics Discussion Thread

[pokefreakceetje]

I don't think willprogresivo is alone. People on Serebii seem to be more accepting of Hyper Training overall than some other video game forums I go to.

Even if it's not realistic, I think it's good Nintendo gave us that option. You're not forced to use Hyper Training, and in fact the old breeding methods are still legit. If you want a perfect IV Pokemon that is less than level 100, breeding is still going to be the best way. Plus we don't even know how hard it'll be to acquire the items to use Hyper Training yet. It may be just as time consuming, if not more so, than breeding.

But I'm always up for more options in video games. Then it can be more fun for more people.



Thank you for posting this. Even if those clips were found in other trailers, not all of us have watched every trailer that has come out. I've only seen a few. I appreciated being able to watch it!

You're welcome.

Also people, I cheated till this month, (with shinies and IV's (I don't, and didn't knew how it worked)), but I quitted it, and now I'll start fresh in Sun & Moon and I won't transfer my boxes to Sun Moon, I did have legit shinies, though, it was time consuming to get those . From these games onwards I'll start fresh and I'll learn how to play (I'm also learning in Y, how to play the games (even by learning how to use my cheated Pokémon, about which I feel bad, but what is needed for me to understand the games ).

 

[clbgolden12]

Oh. My. God.

I'm not talking about the realism of holding an item. Most things in pokemon have no realism to them whatsoever. A lot of pokemon don't even have hands so they can't even held items.

If you want to deconstruct the franchise for realism, then let's shut down the forum and burn all our cartidges because it does not hold up to scrutiny.

The thing is: even if holding a piece of string shouldn't change how genes are passed down: IVs are still something a pokemon is BORN with. Hyper Training 100% CHANGES that.

It makes no sense, no matter how other things in the franchise also don't make sense.

Wait, so you just said a lot of things make no sense in the series, yet then proceed to still complain Hyper Training making no sense?

Bruh.

 

[.Aerodactyl.]

I think we can almost all agree that changing IV's doesn't exactly make sense. But the fact still remains that regardless of if it makes sense, it's a great and awesome feature to add. which is why many people are okay with it

 

[hydrosharp_98]

I think we can almost all agree that changing IV's doesn't exactly make sense. But the fact still remains that regardless of if it makes sense, it's a great and awesome feature to add. which is why many people are okay with it

I'd go a few steps further.

For years fans have been asking for the competitive game to be made more accessible (insert quote here about Pokémon changing for casual gamers who have less time on their hands these days). It makes sense at a business level, and the only people I see being potentially upset are the people who have really put a lot of hard work in (though, as I said before, they should be rewarded with bottle caps or something).

The rest of the competitive community is all for it: more battlers means more variation (Pachurisu in 2013/14 at Worlds was the last noticeable Pokémon to make a real difference outside of the usual set-ups); more battlers means more income for Pokémon and Nintendo to continue what they're doing; the game being way more accessible can extend the lifetime of the game for those who are currently casual fans into an intense, 100 hour+ experience.

 

[vladimirescu]

People who don't like the concept of Hyper Training should chill and give it some time. If even after the game is released they still dislike it, then it's ok to express their discontent, but that one guy there is pretty much losing it. Their arguments are falling apart and all I see is rage, and repeated use of the word "children" suggests they are just angry that a series aimed towards children is making more features friendly and not favoring the "hardcore" adult audience. That just makes they look like the spoiled kid here, and they should calm down.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

snip for convenience

Again, we do not know how it will be, but it will likely be through genetic engineering. If a piece of string can influence Pokemon genes during breeding, it points to Pokemon genes being heavily malleable. This is a universe where they cloned a Mew and genetically engineered it to be a sort-of super weapon. If scientists in the Pokemon universe have the capability to make new Pokemon out of the DNA of others, would it really be out of the question for them to be able to splice DNA of live specimens such as with, again, Samus from Metroid Fusion?

I think we can almost all agree that changing IV's doesn't exactly make sense. But the fact still remains that regardless of if it makes sense, it's a great and awesome feature to add. which is why many people are okay with it

We still don't know the method. Perhaps the "training" is mainly to find any genetic defects or other such things after the living Pokemon has had its DNA spliced.

 

[Pokemon Fan]

IVs are still something a pokemon is BORN with. Hyper Training 100% CHANGES that.

It makes no sense, no matter how other things in the franchise also don't make sense.

Okay, why though does it make no sense to be able to change something a pokemon is born with? Especially when said change is simply an increase that allows them to reach the potential power level that the species as a whole possesses?

 

[RenanSegretti]

Really? It finally gets easier to get good IVs and people complain about it?
Geez... I'm so happy that (maybe) those endless breeding and hatching marathons are over.
Hyper Training is hyper welcome to me

And looking for sense in a pokemon game? Thats just... pointless
If you want some sense, maybe you train your pokemon until his limits (lvl 100) then all you have to do its to unleash your pokemon hidden power. Just like the Great patriarch and Supreme Kaioh does with Gohan in Dragon Ball Z.

There. Now increasing your pokemon IVs makes perfect sense. Its his hidden power xD

 

[Gizmoa]

So you are implying a simple piece of string will determine a biological creatures' genes? If a Pokemon's genes are so heavily influenced by a piece of red string, it is only obvious gene splicing would be incredibly easy on such specimens.

Nature doesn't make you pass down genes from holding a piece of string. That is not how nature works.

Edit: Also, that was a strawman. I said that the destiny knot and the aforementioned scenario in Metroid could easily point to gene splicing, you took it as "contradicting the notion of IVs = genes."

Pokemon have never had double stranded dna, and even the concept of genes or chromosome structure of any kind is not explicitly involved. They just have heritable factors, which do not actually require dna or genes, just that traits can be passed from one generation to the next.

I think of pokemon as magical spirits that reproduce by concentrating spirit energy they collect. The energy picks up traits from the parents collecting it and the core get's wrapped up in the cocoon that looks like an egg (the official games have stated that the "eggs" are really cocoons). I like to think female pokemon can make cocoons (in a mold matching their species) and males can generate/gather loose spirit energy to stuff inside... but theories aside, heritable traits do not have to be genes and even if you want to go all real world laws on it, they could just be epigenetics and thus there is no breach of rules.

(and all those pokemon that come from humans and animals in the lore, a fresh and intact soul of the needed creature get's shoved in rather than old fragments and drifting emotions, so the pokemon that comes out remembers what it once was (abra, yamask, phantump etc)

 

[Thepowaofhax]

Pokemon have never had double stranded dna, and even the concept of genes or chromosome structure of any kind is not explicitly involved. They just have heritable factors, which do not actually require dna or genes, just that traits can be passed from one generation to the next.

I think of pokemon as magical spirits that reproduce by concentrating spirit energy they collect. The energy picks up traits from the parents collecting it and the core get's wrapped up in the cocoon that looks like an egg (the official games have stated that the "eggs" are really cocoons). I like to think female pokemon can make cocoons (in a mold matching their species) and males can generate/gather loose spirit energy to stuff inside... but theories aside, heritable traits do not have to be genes and even if you want to go all real world laws on it, they could just be epigenetics and thus there is no breach of rules.

(and all those pokemon that come from humans and animals in the lore, a fresh and intact soul of the needed creature get's shoved in rather than old fragments and drifting emotions, so the pokemon that comes out remembers what it once was (abra, yamask, phantump etc)

This seems heavily unlikely for most species of Pokemon, however. As according to the Y and ORAS pokedex entries for Mew, all Pokemon have DNA and genetic make-ups.

Y.
Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.
ORAS.
Mew is said to possess the genetic composition of all Pokémon. It is capable of making itself invisible at will, so it entirely avoids notice even if it approaches people.
Link.

So, if a Pokemon can hold the genetic code of every Pokemon, there is only one conclusion. Pokemon have DNA and genes. You also have no sources or lore backing your claim of Pokemon not having genes, chromosomes or DNA, nor any sources pointing towards it being more spiritually based. In fact, most of these seems anecdotal.

 

[Akashin]

How does the Destiny Knot in ANY way contradict the notion of IVs being genes? It passes down a pokemon's genes to its offspring. Makes perfect sense in regard to the concept of IVs being the Individual Values of a pokemon, its genes, while EVs are traineable Effort Values, its skills.

I get that you mean that it's an item, and thus comparable to how Hyper Training will affect IVs... but the key difference is that one is about passing down genes, which is how nature works, and the other one is changing someone's genes... after they turn 100 years old (let's assume for a second that L100 pokemon are "old").

Makes no sense.

No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that the Destiny Knot (and the Power items) is a man-made item--presumably anyway--that influences a Pokemon's natural potential. Therefore, the core idea that the technology to do so exists is not new; the only thing that is new is that Hyper Training is applicable after birth, whereas all previously known methods only influenced how they were born.

Whether it's Hyper Training or the existing Destiny Knot, both are human influence on a Pokemon's IVs.

And this is all putting aside the fact that, as Gizmoa and Nahiri have said and been largely ignored on, gene therapy is a real world thing anyway. What's so unbelievable about a possibly somewhat fantastical take on something that already exists?

 

[Gizmoa]

This seems heavily unlikely for most species of Pokemon, however. As according to the Y and ORAS pokedex entries for Mew, all Pokemon have DNA and genetic make-ups.



So, if a Pokemon can hold the genetic code of every Pokemon, there is only one conclusion. Pokemon have DNA and genes. You also have no sources or lore backing your claim of Pokemon not having genes, chromosomes or DNA, nor any sources pointing towards it being more spiritually based. In fact, most of these seems anecdotal.

Edit: please note in my claim I said we didn't have an explicit reason, that is not a claim of "they don't have it" it is a claim of "we don't know", I can not reference a nothing, but you pointed out a reference I forgot about that says "we do know", which is great.

As for the reasons behind my original claim that pokemon do not necessarily have genes or dna as we know them, but simply heritable factors, I have the definitions of dna and the coding. So double stranded dna, even if you want to have it simulated has special rules with how the heritable factors transfer from the parents. Pokemon do not follow these rules, so the heritable factors are not double stranded dna as we know it.

You have a good point about mew, I forgot about that, so in that case we know that pokemon are most like to have single stranded dna, an additional heritable encoding format that is not dna, or that they killed their lore a while ago with conflicts between how things actually work and the words they used to describe things.

We do also assume that the DNA is the same as it is in the real world, which may also not be the case... and we also assume that the dna is actually what is used as the heritable factors rather than it simply being the final code instructions produced after the heritable transfer stage of development (for example, in a mammal the dna is heritable, but the rna is not, while in some bacteria there is no dna and the rna is what is heritable)

...and then there is the pokedex entry clause... which is that they may be written by the first person who encountered the pokemon and they just use words they know that sound cool to describe things and thus are not reliable when it comes to scientific concepts. Though one would hope that since it is mew, the first person to put in the entry was Blaine... and I think even if we ignore the pokedex, the burned mansion diary entries will cover it.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

As for the reasons behind my original claim that pokemon do not necessarily have genes or dna as we know them, but simply heritable factors, I have the definitions of dna and the coding. So double stranded dna, even if you want to have it simulated has special rules with how the heritable factors transfer from the parents. Pokemon do not follow these rules, so the heritable factors are not double stranded dna as we know it.

You have a good point about mew, I forgot about that, so in that case we know that pokemon are most like to have single stranded dna, an additional heritable encoding format that is not dna, or that they killed their lore a while ago with conflicts between how things actually work and the words they used to describe things.

We do also assume that the DNA is the same as it is in the real world, which may also not be the case... and we also assume that the dna is actually what is used as the heritable factors rather than it simply being the final code instructions produced after the heritable transfer stage of development (for example, in a mammal the dna is heritable, but the rna is not, while in some bacteria there is no dna and the rna is what is heritable)

...and then there is the pokedex entry clause... which is that they may be written by the first person who encountered the pokemon and they just use words they know that sound cool to describe things and thus are not reliable when it comes to scientific concepts. Though one would hope that since it is mew, the first person to put in the entry was Blaine... and I think even if we ignore the pokedex, the burned mansion diary entries will cover it.

Most of this is mainly assertion. Even without these special items, Pokemon will still bring down IVs from parents at a maximum of three, hinting towards that fact that most Pokemon that are bred have a heterozygous form of their genes regarding their stats. There's also the fact that egg moves can be attributed to instinctive behavior brought by breeding; the Pokemon knows a behavior for fighting that helps it survive.

Abilities also seem like they're likely to be genetically brought down, with HA being a likely recessive trait due to how rare it is in hordes. Shiny Pokemon can also be genetic in Gen 2 terms; you can breed a Gen 2 shiny with another Pokemon to have a higher chance of getting a shiny because it is based off of DVs.

There is also the fact that in all Pokemon universes, Mewtwo is a genetically engineered Mew clone, and even in the anime, Mewtwo had cloned Pokemon via DNA. It seems like Hyper Training will have to do with DNA most likely, and as said, is likely genetic splicing.

 

[Gizmoa]

Most of this is mainly assertion. Even without these special items, Pokemon will still bring down IVs from parents at a maximum of three, hinting towards that fact that most, if not all Pokemon that are bred have a heterozygous form of their genes regarding their stats. There's also the fact that egg moves can be attributed to instinctive behavior brought by breeding; the Pokemon knows a behavior for fighting that helps it survive.

Abilities also seem like they're likely to be genetically brought down, with HA being a likely recessive trait due to how rare it is in hordes. Shiny Pokemon can also be genetic in Gen 2 terms; you can breed a Gen 2 shiny with another Pokemon to have a higher chance of getting a shiny because it is based off of DVs.

There is also the fact that in all Pokemon universes, Mewtwo is a genetically engineered Mew clone, and even in the anime, Mewtwo had cloned Pokemon via DNA. It seems like Hyper Training will have to do with DNA most likely, and as said, is likely genetic splicing.

If you want to just go with your own beliefs without looking at any hard numbers and just base it on your personal game experience, you can extrapolate whatever you want from it. That doesn't make it a fact, just your own personal way of experiencing the game and it's lore. If you want to actually use hard numbers, game coding and real world science you have to be a bit more objective about it. I was using a blend of both but made the effort to point out the parts that came from actual game evidence vs the parts I just fancy, but I clearly failed so let me try that again

Pokemon have never had double stranded dna(fact based on the definition of double stranded dna as we know it), and even the concept of genes or chromosome structure of any kind is not explicitly involved(I was saying we don't know that they have dna, but as I was corrected by the use of the term dna in the games, I clearly made an error here). They just have heritable factors (still true, dna is a heritable factor), which do not actually require dna or genes, just that traits can be passed from one generation to the next.

I think of pokemon as magical spirits that reproduce by concentrating spirit energy they collect(this is me giving my own interpretation of the game via my experiences). The energy picks up traits from the parents collecting it and the core get's wrapped up in the cocoon that looks like an egg (the official games have stated that the "eggs" are really cocoons, so game lore fact here). I like to think female pokemon can make cocoons (in a mold matching their species) and males can generate/gather loose spirit energy to stuff inside... but theories aside, (now switching back to raw reality and data) heritable traits do not have to be genes and even if you want to go all real world laws on it, they could just be epigenetics and thus there is no breach of rules.

So getting back to the hard core facts... Unfortunately, the stuff they teach in high school is so oversimplified that it tends to be very misleading, and everything being said above lines up with the misinterpretations people get from that level of education in the subject... self included before I became first an evolutionary biologist and then a game developer specialising in digital DNA and artificial life). So when I say this stuff, it comes from a different perspective than most, and is really very technical/nit picky in nature, so I get how it would be weird sounding.

But anyhow, the reason pokemon can not have double stranded dna is because their is no double stranding in the math used by the game. HA have a chance at being passed on from mom at random suggesting a packet system where inactive or stray packets may get used in place of the mothers. The IV's are again, packet system where the destiny knot ensures a minimum number of packets from mom or dad make it through without mutation or replacement. Packet systems are based on single stranded rna creatures and are preferred over double stranding by game developers because they are much more simplistic to use, and give players a similar feel. The true god of all heritability is a factor known as drift, and in a game you can control the influx rate of each allelic type as well as the drift rules. This means things can read as recessive when they are not actually recessive... though I could get even more technical and go into how recessive and dominant are not the same as expressed and hidden... but I don't want this to be a genetics class. The simple reality is that pokemon's game code does not support a double stranded dna as the heritable factor (not to be confused with a factor that influences heritability... gah science, your naming of terms sometimes...) So until GameFreak tells us it is supposed to be double stranded DNA and they just got cheap about how they coded it, there is no reason to pretend that it is double stranded dna when a real world counterpart that matches the math more closely exists.

But yes, pokemon inherit stuff from their parents, and the idea of changing what is inherited is weird... unless you are a bacteria at which point you do it all the time. If we can just come to see pokemon as having packet based dna, then it is all pretty easy to swallow... though again, if you prefer to go with just how you experience the game and ignore the coding, you can always make yourself feel better about the IV training by thinking about it as epigenetic.

 

[hydrosharp_98]

I'm stunned by how long this debate has gone on and how long some of these arguments are. Not hitting on any of you guys at all - actually, it's a great debate to read - but, for myself at least, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I'll certainly be jumping much deeper into the competitive game if this makes it viable enough.

Those with previously legitimate IV'd Pokémon should, in my opinion, be rewarded a rare item/Pokémon to help them continue, or, adversely, just be given Bottle Caps.

I haven't got much to say about the realism. I could go into a fully biologically adept argument, but there's not much to say; the moment we start applying a little too much realism is the moment we can start killing the joy of the game for ourselves.

 

[.Aerodactyl.]

I'm stunned by how long this debate has gone on and how long some of these arguments are. Not hitting on any of you guys at all - actually, it's a great debate to read - but, for myself at least, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I'll certainly be jumping much deeper into the competitive game if this makes it viable enough.

Those with previously legitimate IV'd Pokémon should, in my opinion, be rewarded a rare item/Pokémon to help them continue, or, adversely, just be given Bottle Caps.

I haven't got much to say about the realism. I could go into a fully biologically adept argument, but there's not much to say; the moment we start applying a little too much realism is the moment we can start killing the joy of the game for ourselves.

As someone with previously legitimate IV'd Pokémon, i like the reward idea, but also totally cool without it Just having bank to move stuff to the new games is great, plus as been described, I think breeding will still be faster for me than bottle caps anyway since I have the know how and boxes of male studs to exploit.

Anyone want to discuss their theories on customization and the possible changes? I have my own thoughts/predictions, but really curious what others might have noticed/think we can expect.

 

[Pokemon Fan]

I've probably spent hundreds of hours over the years breeding pokemon with ideal IVs and I don't see any problem with Hyper Training. Its not like the pokemon I got before are suddenly useless, Hyper Training didn't exist until now so that was what I had to do to get ideal pokemon. To be angry over a new feature like this is like being angry over the internet getting invented because we used to have to go to libraries to study most information. Its just an innovation.

Really its exciting to think I'll be able to perfect various shinies and event pokemon (soft resetting has gotten me a lot of great mythicals but they could still be better).

 

[knightwolf09]

I'm just happy to have a feature that let's me use my in-game team finally. I finally get to have true partners I can stick with.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

snip for convenience

Then, if we go by the packet based system Pokemon seem to have and bacteria use, it still fits with genetic engineering. Bacteriums are some of the easiest things to genetically engineer in real life, however I doubt GameFreak would make Pokemon essentially giant bacteriums that look like certain animals, objects, etc. It is likely GameFreak took the easy way out, however it would be interesting if they changed the algorithm to be fitting for double-strained DNA.

If it is packet-based DNA, Hyper Training would be much easier to pull off. In fact, it was already pulled off in Gen 5 via DNA Splicers for Kyurem, so they already have the technology to change the genetics of Pokemon and potentially change IVs.

 

[pokefreakceetje]

I will, maybe, transfer my legit event Pokémon/Pokémon which I received as 6 IV. I will never transfer those awful shinies I made on my own (I mean by hacking).