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New Moves Discussion & Speculation

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Zaide

Well-Known Member
Thought about it a while ago, would it be cool to have a move that will act like Protect but for two Pokémon? It would be useful in double battles; I'm surprised there isn't a move like that yet.
Mat Block kinda does that, with the exception that it only blocks damaging moves and does not have increased priority. For obvious balance reasons. Crafty Shield protects from status moves only, with increased priority. Then you have quick guard that protects from priority moves and wide guard that protects from spread moves.

Something that combines the effects of those would just straight out be broken, even if it can only, say, be launched on the first turn its user is on the field.
 

Lykouros

Sandslash fan
I could give you completely different reasons for why it wouldn't work on Hippowdon, but I'm not even going to bother, as you'll probably just ignore them too and continue to pretend like it makes sense.

Is this what discussions on Serebii have turned into? A shame. I thought both of you actually had good points.

Here's what I'm still lost on. The Japanese name for Shore Up is Sand Gather, like you said Bguy. Sand Gather has nothing to do with propping up. I feel like this is a situation akin to Sucker Punch, aka Surprise Attack. Furthermore, Sand Gather doesn't have to mean adding sand to the body, although it could. I have been envisioning Pallosand and friends gathering sand around them and using the brief moment to heal up.

Then you have quick guard that protects from priority moves and wide guard that protects from spread moves.

Keep in mind that Quick Guard and Wide Guard can be used infinitely in battle, and even with their limited effects they are still a pain for many players to deal with. I agree that having a full protect move would be a bit much, even if it had an increased chance of failing. I like that Wide and Quick Guard require some strategy and planning to use.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Here's what I'm still lost on. The Japanese name for Shore Up is Sand Gather, like you said Bguy. Sand Gather has nothing to do with propping up. I feel like this is a situation akin to Sucker Punch, aka Surprise Attack. Furthermore, Sand Gather doesn't have to mean adding sand to the body, although it could. I have been envisioning Pallosand and friends gathering sand around them and using the brief moment to heal up.

I don't think you can disregard English name. The Japanese name does have to be looked at, but the English name is important too. The name Shore Up was obviously given for two reasons. It refers to gathering sand to fortify the castle, and (in a very clever pun) refers to the beaches that Palosand lives on. The English name is created by professional translators who have inside information and know what they're doing. If Game Freak had plans to give Shore Up to other Pokémon, the English localizers would have been told to pick a different name. Since Hippowdon is neither made of sand and does not live on the beach, the move just doesn't work for it. It works better than Claydol, but not by much.

In the case of the Sucker Punch example you give, I always like to remind people that the name Sucker Punch really isn't as much of a mistranslation as people seem to assume. While it sounds like it refers to literally punching, the term sucker punch can be used colloquially to describe any type of sneak attack, punch or otherwise. In the case of Shore Up, there is no secondary meaning that can easily refer to a currently existing Pokémon that's not Sandygast/Palosand.
 

Lykouros

Sandslash fan
I honestly had never realized what Wide Guard and Quick Guard did until this conversation.

I didn't know what they did either until I started getting into battling Doubles and they changed my life :)

The name Shore Up was obviously given for two reasons. It refers to gathering sand to fortify the castle, and (in a very clever pun) refers to the beaches that Palosand lives on. The English name is created by professional translators who have inside information and know what they're doing. If Game Freak had plans to give Shore Up to other Pokémon, the English localizers would have been told to pick a different name.

The pun has been noted since the beginning, and it is clever, however it doesn't exclude Shore Up from being given to other pokemon. As someone else pointed out earlier, there are other moves that have been given to pokemon that don't make sense in English, such as Heal Bell. Eevee and friends don't carry around a bell with which to heal. Why wasn't this move given the same treatment as Shore Up, then? Furthermore, Sucker Punch is partially a mistranslation, as the English dictionaries list it first and foremost as:

Noun
1.
an unexpected punch or blow.

Verb
1.
hit (someone) with an unexpected punch or blow.

In English it has the word punch in it. This frequently confuses not only native English speakers but foreign speakers as well. The translation team could have made a better choice here, too.

All I've intended to get at is that Shore Up could be given to other pokemon, and its name doesn't exclude that. You have good points about why it most likely won't be given to others, but we can't say for sure.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
The pun has been noted since the beginning, and it is clever, however it doesn't exclude Shore Up from being given to other pokemon. As someone else pointed out earlier, there are other moves that have been given to pokemon that don't make sense in English, such as Heal Bell. Eevee and friends don't carry around a bell with which to heal. Why wasn't this move given the same treatment as Shore Up, then?

Heal Bell has the same name in Japanese, so the English really isn't at question here. As for it making sense, it's not that hard to logic it out as creating some sort of bell made out of energy, or in the case of Pokémon like Miltank and Skitty, referring to bells that the real-life animal equivalents of the Pokémon tend to wear. All that matters is a bell of some kind, physical or otherwise, is being rang. It's hard to apply that sort of logic to Shore Up. Anything but the literal interpretation just fails to make much sense when all is considered. In the end, the end, the purpose of the move is to gather surrounding sand to heal the user, as the user is made of sand. Palosand is the only Pokémon we currently have who is made of sand.

Furthermore, Sucker Punch is partially a mistranslation, as the English dictionaries list it first and foremost as:

Noun
1.
an unexpected punch or blow.

Verb
1.
hit (someone) with an unexpected punch or blow.

In English it has the word punch in it. This frequently confuses not only native English speakers but foreign speakers as well. The translation team could have made a better choice here, too.

Your definitions also mentions blows though, and a blow doesn't have to be a punch, it can be any kind of heavy impact. The name is misleading, but not incorrect.

All I've intended to get at is that Shore Up could be given to other pokemon, and its name doesn't exclude that. You have good points about why it most likely won't be given to others, but we can't say for sure.

Well yeah, we also can't say for sure that maybe someday Celebi will be able to learn Roar of Time, or Solrock will be able to learn Sunsteel Strike. Doesn't mean that they're possibilities worth considering.

To cut to my point though, I'm just trying to say why we shouldn't be requesting for something to happen when it is not only unlikely, but also detrimental to the lore of the move.
 

Lykouros

Sandslash fan
Heal Bell has the same name in Japanese, so the English really isn't at question here. As for it making sense, it's not that hard to logic it out as creating some sort of bell made out of energy, or in the case of Pokémon like Miltank and Skitty, referring to bells that the real-life animal equivalents of the Pokémon tend to wear.

The thing is, this logic is the same logic I use with Shore Up. I picture a pokemon surrounding itself in sound or using sand to keep itself away from its enemy, then healing while it has a moment to rest.

we also can't say for sure that maybe someday Celebi will be able to learn Roar of Time, or Solrock will be able to learn Sunsteel Strike. Doesn't mean that they're possibilities worth considering.

To be fair I'm the type of person who thinks those are also possible and worth considering at some point in the future. The only thing that somewhat makes me wonder if they'd get these moves is that these moves do a lot of damage, but I think it's passable. Shore Up only heals the user based on weather, making it no different functionally than Morning Sun or Moonlight.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
The thing is, this logic is the same logic I use with Shore Up. I picture a pokemon surrounding itself in sound or using sand to keep itself away from its enemy, then healing while it has a moment to rest.

Eh, I'll admit that my explanation for Heal Bell was pushing it a little, but this is probably pushing much more than we should be. The fact that Shore Up was made specifically for Sandyghast and Palosand makes it pretty clear that the move was meant to be gathering sand to replace sand that was lost from its body during the battle. There's just no reason to come up with alternative interpretations of how it could work.


To be fair I'm the type of person who thinks those are also possible and worth considering at some point in the future

If that's really the case, then we should probably just respectfully stop this debate now before things get out of hand, as, to put it frankly, I would be not only annoyed, but outright upset if either of those ever happened.
 

Victreebong

Gives 'em the slip..
Some things;

1. Nihilego and Tentacruel Family should have access to Recover. Nihilego is still a class A Pokémon, so is Tentacruel to a certain degree, but lots of other Water types are getting access to recovery moves in their tiers, and jellyfish are excellent natural healers. They simply shift “limbs”, and do so in record time (hours). Recover is what’s separating Tentacruel from turning into a S-Tier God, and Nihilego just looks like it should get Recover. Both are quite jelly of Jellicent’s jelly.

2. (Maybe a Gen 8 change) Defense Curl should double the base power of Steam Roller, Flame Wheel and Tackle. A lot of Pokémon use combinations of at least two of these (usually naturally getting Rollout) and I think it makes great sense. Tackle should go back to 50 base power and stay there. In contests, Defense Curl and then Tackle would get you more appeal points. Imagine, a Simple Godoof using Z-Defense Curl to get +2 defense and + 2 accuracy, then Tackling your brains out in between Waterfalls. That’s one nasty beaver.
 
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ReneEnjolras

Explorer of Ruins
For the Shore Up debate, I think giving the move to other ground types would be beneficial. Used with Sandstorm, you've got an excellent healing move. The combo is good for double battles and PVP matches of the like.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
For the Shore Up debate, I think giving the move to other ground types would be beneficial. Used with Sandstorm, you've got an excellent healing move. The combo is good for double battles and PVP matches of the like.

Maybe it would, but you can't just go and slap on moves willy-nilly, just because it would be good for online matches. There is a certain internal logic to the world of Pokémon. The move has to actually make at least a little sense lore-wise before you give it to a Pokémon, no matter how good it would be. If you ignore that, then you might as well make it so that all Pokémon can learn all TMs, I'm sure that would help quite a lot of Pokémon in online matches as well, but it would be an absolute continuity nightmare.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Maybe it would, but you can't just go and slap on moves willy-nilly, just because it would be good for online matches. There is a certain internal logic to the world of Pokémon. The move has to actually make at least a little sense lore-wise before you give it to a Pokémon, no matter how good it would be. If you ignore that, then you might as well make it so that all Pokémon can learn all TMs, I'm sure that would help quite a lot of Pokémon in online matches as well, but it would be an absolute continuity nightmare.

Like when they gave Steel Wing to Beheeyem but refused to give Steelix Iron Defense, completely following internal logic of Pokémon. I'm not saying that Claydol should or should not get Shore up, I don't really care, but extending other people's arguments to absurdity as a counter-argument isn't very cool. Nobody is saying all pokémon should get all TMs.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Like when they gave Steel Wing to Beheeyem but refused to give Steelix Iron Defense, completely following internal logic of Pokémon.

Beheeyem and Steel Wing is an extreme oddity and one-of-a-kind scenario. Seeing as there is no surface reason to give it the move, it likely comes down to either being a mistake or a joke. Steel Wing is TM 51, so perhaps its supposed to be a joke on Area 51. Or, TM 51 in Unova was a move that actually made sense for Beheyeem, so maybe it was an accident in the transition between Gen V and VI that they haven't bothered to fix.

And choosing not to give a Pokémon a move that might make sense is a whole lot different from choosing to give it a move that doesn't.

I'm not saying that Claydol should or should not get Shore up, I don't really care, but extending other people's arguments to absurdity as a counter-argument isn't very cool. Nobody is saying all pokémon should get all TMs.

I never claimed that anyone said that. While it was an extreme example, the concept is the same. There are plenty of moves that could make any given Pokémon more competitively viable, but that doesn't mean those moves should be applied at random. Since I don't play competitively, I don't know what moves would make Pokémon better, but giving Shore Up to random non-sand Pokémon would be like giving Hydro Pump to a Charizard. It just doesn't make any sense.
 

future.newyorker

Well-Known Member
Beheeyem and Steel Wing is an extreme oddity and one-of-a-kind scenario. Seeing as there is no surface reason to give it the move, it likely comes down to either being a mistake or a joke. Steel Wing is TM 51, so perhaps its supposed to be a joke on Area 51. Or, TM 51 in Unova was a move that actually made sense for Beheyeem, so maybe it was an accident in the transition between Gen V and VI that they haven't bothered to fix.

And choosing not to give a Pokémon a move that might make sense is a whole lot different from choosing to give it a move that doesn't.



I never claimed that anyone said that. While it was an extreme example, the concept is the same. There are plenty of moves that could make any given Pokémon more competitively viable, but that doesn't mean those moves should be applied at random. Since I don't play competitively, I don't know what moves would make Pokémon better, but giving Shore Up to random non-sand Pokémon would be like giving Hydro Pump to a Charizard. It just doesn't make any sense.

Surfing Rhydon and Flying Golurck would like to say hi.

EDIT: also, GF has shown to be completely illogical when not giving moves to Pokémon as well. Example, Charizard, a Fire/FLYING type with GIANT wings, couldn’t learn Fly until Yellow.
 
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R_N

Well-Known Member
Golurk is a pretty bad example, seeing as it learning Fly is completely logical. It's capable of flight and its pokedex entries outright say as much; there's no problem there.

also it's based on flying giant robots
 

RileyXY1

Young Battle Trainer
Beheeyem and Steel Wing is an extreme oddity and one-of-a-kind scenario. Seeing as there is no surface reason to give it the move, it likely comes down to either being a mistake or a joke. Steel Wing is TM 51, so perhaps its supposed to be a joke on Area 51. Or, TM 51 in Unova was a move that actually made sense for Beheyeem, so maybe it was an accident in the transition between Gen V and VI that they haven't bothered to fix.

And choosing not to give a Pokémon a move that might make sense is a whole lot different from choosing to give it a move that doesn't.

TM51 taught Ally Switch in Generation V. They must've forgot to delete it from Beheeyem's movepool when they changed it to Steel Wing in Generation VI.
 

Victreebong

Gives 'em the slip..
;-;

I just want to add one thing to this, I’ve been a Serebii member since 2003, and never has a topic of mine somehow spanned three weeks of dialogue, this feels like a Reddit! Onward we march onto November 17th, bickering the age old question; should Claydol and Hippotas fill their body holes backup with sand?
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Surfing Rhydon and Flying Golurck would like to say hi.

On top of the Golurk thing that others pointed out, Surf is often given simply for the reason that the Pokemon can swim. What more reason do you need?

EDIT: also, GF has shown to be completely illogical when not giving moves to Pokémon as well. Example, Charizard, a Fire/FLYING type with GIANT wings, couldn’t learn Fly until Yellow.

I literally said in the post you quoted that there's a major difference between giving a Pokemon an illogical move and failing to give it a logical move.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
;-;

I just want to add one thing to this, I’ve been a Serebii member since 2003, and never has a topic of mine somehow spanned three weeks of dialogue, this feels like a Reddit! Onward we march onto November 17th, bickering the age old question; should Claydol and Hippotas fill their body holes backup with sand?

I would say yes that they would work for me, I'd have no qualms with it. Well Hippopottas more than Claydol, who seems like a recovery kind of pokemon.
I also stand behind my Solrock receiving Solar Blade, his rocks can sharpen for it to work.

But another few I thought of:
1. I hope Aerodactyl gets Head Smash. Not sure if we have to talk about new moves here but Aerodactyl not having Head Smash is like making Chocolate Chip Cookies and not adding in the chocolate chips.. he has the perfect ability for it!

2. Ribombee should receive more draining moves, well at least as a cutiefly. GigaDrain and MegaDrain seem like perfect moves for Cutiefly, which I'm thinking will come with the move tutors. Or maybe as an egg move, Cutiefly should have gotten Strength Sap. Also for Strength Sap: Trevenant would have made sense.

3. Feraligatr line should have been given poison fang and psychic fang for it's moveset or as egg moves, they can only learn ice fang out of all the elemental fang moves.
 
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