New Pokemon Discussion Thread

[Ariki]

We know Meltan is Gen 7 because LGPE run on an enhanced engine of the one used for Sun and Moon - and Sun and Moon is actually one huge easter egg for LGPE (replay them to see what I mean)

 

[BCVM22]

No, neither of those strictly make Meltan a Generation VII Pokémon.

This is exhausting. I eagerly await a year from now when this all gets sorted out and filed away with the countless other strange pre-release notions that litter history.

 

[Akashin]

Nor is there any reason to consider LGP/E Generation VII games, and that's the shaky foundation on which the entire notion is built.

I said nothing about these games and which side of the fence--if they don't actually fit in some weird so-far unused groove somewhere in the middle of that fence, which is probably the best place for them--they sit on. But Meltan's status as a Pokemon not found in SM or USUM has no real bearing in and of itself on the status of these games, or itself.

But then, I've been steering clear of this argument for the most part simply because I don't really get why people care one way or the other. We can spend days parsing over what defines a new Generation and where to place these games based on Criteria A or Criteria B, but these games are by their nature somewhat unconventional, so treating them conventionally seems a bit pointless to me. And given the fact that least year GameFreak dispelled the notion that new Pokemon mean a new Generation, and this year we're getting games on new hardware but that aren't set in a new Region with a new story and a new roster of Pokemon, I get the feeling we care more about this than they do.

 

[Bguy7]

But they did show up in USUM.

What's the difference between Poipole not showing up in Sun and Moon, and Meltan not showing up in Ultra Sun and Moon? Either way we have a Pokemon that didn't appear in one of the Gen VII games, since they were added after said games came out.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

...but this is extrapolating, especially since Masuda isn't part of any body that specifically recognizes "generations" the way we do. Just because Game Freak considers it a main series game by gameplay - which it is, mostly - does not at all mean we're required to incorrectly conform it to a generation.

You're absolutely right. Masuda does not endorse the concept of generations, as it was created and enforced by the fandom. Thus, it would be the fandom who decides what generation the game belongs to. That generation would be Gen 7.

I mean, even the Serebii.net site itself lists it under Gen 7. Given the reality that generations are in fact a fan-based concept, we could have this argument for an eternity, and neither of us would technically be correct. Nontheless, the general consensus remains to be Gen 7.

 

[BCVM22]

if they don't actually fit in some weird so-far unused groove somewhere in the middle of that fence, which is probably the best place for them

but these games are by their nature somewhat unconventional, so treating them conventionally seems a bit pointless to me.

Which is what I've advocated repeatedly.

I get the feeling we care more about this than they do.

Almost always the case.

Thus, it would be the fandom who decides what generation the game belongs to. That generation would be Gen 7.

The notion that "the fandom" has somehow decided collectively that is about as tissue-thin as the rest of the argument.

I mean, even the Serebii.net site itself lists it under Gen 7.

The original Mystery Dungeons and Ranger are listed under Generation III, probably because Serebii isn't going to disrupt his sidebar to add a "Generation VII.5"? Just a thought.

Nontheless, the general consensus remains to be Gen 7.

Building upon the earlier point, the idea that there's any "general consensus" on the matter is borderline ridiculous, and I think you know that.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Building upon the earlier point, the idea that there's any "general consensus" on the matter is borderline ridiculous, and I think you know that.

It seems I don't. Take that as you will.

But as I said before, we can debate this until the end of time, and neither of us will technically be correct. Honestly, I see it more ridiculous to say it's neither Gen 7 or 8, when even saying such requires the recognition of that same unofficial criteria. You might as well pick a generation. It won't matter either way.

 

[Ariki]

If Gamefreak elect to patch Meltan and its evolution into USUM (which would be a groundbreaking first and Gamefreak seem to be doing that more frequently) then that too will put to bed any doubts over the generation Meltan belongs in, as well as the LGPE games.

Another consideration will be Pokemon Bank compatibility - if the games can upload to bank and Sun and Moon and Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon can withdraw Pokemon uploaded from LGPE/GO then they (LGPE) can be considered Gen 7 games and with all the hoopla Gamefreak made about everything coming together in Gen 7, I would not be surprised.

 

[_Proteus_]

Why do we care whether it's a Gen 7 or a Gen 8 Pokémon?

The sad truth is that there isn't much to discuss about this games, so people start arguing about gen7/8.

I mean, even the Serebii.net site itself lists it under Gen 7. Given the reality that generations are in fact a fan-based concept, we could have this argument for an eternity, and neither of us would technically be correct. Nontheless, the general consensus remains to be Gen 7.

Yeah but Wikipedia still remain neutral classifing Meltan as "new pokemon", not putting into a generation.
To avoid controversy.

Just make it clear one for all, or this thread 'll go on forever.
There 're two point of view of what identifies a generation.
Someone think the release of a main game with a new region.
Somebody else point out that moving to a new console, it's enough leap to justify the change of generation, even if the game it's a remake.

This doesn't have to do only with an improved hardware, but with the compatibility of (main) games of a the same gen.
The same pokemon can be freely moved between RubyS/FRLG/Emerald/gamecube games.
Since gen4 Spiky-Ear Pichu there are pokemon that can't be traded over, fusioned dragons in gen5.
The fact in USUM they're even different species, it isn't a big surprise to me. It's just Gamefreak want you to buy another game; otherwise they could simply patch the game.

Anyway the problem here it's LGPE is totally separated from 3DS. There no comunication, I'm sorry it's won't be in the future either.
There no point to put Mew in Pokeball plus, you can't trade from Go, if in the future they're going to make pokebank avviable in switch, with hundreds of mew hacked from virtual console and exploit. LOL
While there's a possibility that LGPE can be transferred in the next year switch game. Masuda talked about this in an interview.
But again we have no idea how it 'd work, if it's only in one direction, or you you can send back the first gen monster from 2019 to LGPE.

In that case, I would be incline to consider Let's Go game a gen 8 games, although they were released before the games with a brand new region.

 

[lemoncatpower]

I think we can just wait for Meltan's gen classification until the new 2019 games come out and we see the actual new pokedex and where it is in it. Otherwise unless officially stated, I don't think we will know until then.

 

[Sceptrigon]

I would absolutely hate if Meltan ends up being only obtainable in LGPE (making it more a gen 7 Pokémon) like with Zeroara for USUM.

 

[Muffin Man]

What's the difference between Poipole not showing up in Sun and Moon, and Meltan not showing up in Ultra Sun and Moon? Either way we have a Pokemon that didn't appear in one of the Gen VII games, since they were added after said games came out.

The difference is that LGPE does not include any of the previous non-G1 pokemon. I can have Poipole and any other Gen 7 pokemon on a single team. The same cannot be said for Meltan. It makes no sense to group pokemon in the same gen when they can't even be on the same team.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Will a steel type pokemon make the games even easier?

 

[Bguy7]

The difference is that LGPE does not include any of the previous non-G1 pokemon. I can have Poipole and any other Gen 7 pokemon on a single team. The same cannot be said for Meltan. It makes no sense to group pokemon in the same gen when they can't even be on the same team.

Probably should have explained that bit from the beginning. Your meaning was not clear from the statements you made.

Anyways, this is an unusual, and so far unique circumstance, but regardless of the circumstance, if we assume Let's Go is a Gen VII game (which is the best classification we have for it), then a Pokémon fully introduced in it must be a Gen VII Pokémon. Your requirement of needing to be able to put it into a team with other Gen VII Pokémon is a somewhat arbitrary rule. While it's always been that way before, there's really no way that can be a more important factor than game of origin. Even if it weren't, seeing as Let's Go is the first and only Pokémon game to remove Pokémon, it seems to justify a special exception from your rule.

 

[BCVM22]

(which is the best classification we have for it)

It's really not...

I'm not sure there's any other point in this franchise, where we would receive a game on different hardware than the previous entries, taking place in a different region than the previous entries, AND introduces a completely new Pokémon (the AND, as in all three conditions simultaneously, is key here so that some wisenut doesn't try and WELL ACTUALLY me), but we'd say "yeah this totally belongs to last generation." And it remains puzzling why we're continually trying to do it here.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Will a steel type pokemon make the games even easier?

What do you mean by this? Are you referring to the fact that the original Yellow didn't have the Steel type?

 

[Bguy7]

It's really not...

I'm not sure there's any other point in this franchise, where we would receive a game on different hardware than the previous entries, taking place in a different region than the previous entries, AND introduces a completely new Pokémon (the AND, as in all three conditions simultaneously, is key here so that some wisenut doesn't try and WELL ACTUALLY me), but we'd say "yeah this totally belongs to last generation." And it remains puzzling why we're continually trying to do it here.

I know you're steadfastly sticking to the approach of claiming that these games have no generation classification. Everything I say is made with the assumption that every main series game belongs to a generation. And, under that context, wouldn't you admit that Let's Go is a bigger fit into Gen VII than Gen VIII? When I say Gen VII is the best classification, I mean it is the best actual classification (so, ignoring the option of no classification). I really can't debate any further than that, as our differences in thought come down to fundamentally different philosophies.

 

[BCVM22]

And, under that context, wouldn't you admit that Let's Go is a bigger fit into Gen VII than Gen VIII?

If we didn't have a classification for aquatic arthropods, then sure, we'd say crabs are more like spiders than they are fish, and we'd lump them in with spiders for lack of a better place to put them. But a legitimate classification exists halfway between the two groups, because crustaceans are a thing. So why ignore that legitimate classification that comfortably sits halfway between the two groups?

As you said, we're simply on different and incompatible wavelengths.

 

[Fairy Queen]

Ooooooh so Meltan gets a big new form? AWESOME! I love this thing more and more!!!!

I do hope it doesn't get the Steel/Electric typing. I would much rather have it remain a pure Steel type (and be godly) or gain the Steel/Poison typing. Like with Hoopa, I see its base form have a 600 BST, and its new form having 680 BST. As far as the distribution goes, I could see it getting 100s for all stats, but since it is getting a new form, I don't see it have 100s. It looks more like a bulky physical attacker, but its supposed signature move is a laser, which points to special attacker. So I am not sure. I'm bad at guessing stats, I completely thought Complete Zygarde would have monster stats in each category, but it only really ended up with god-like HP, so who knows.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

What do you mean by this? Are you referring to the fact that the original Yellow didn't have the Steel type?

Yeah and that there is already one Ice Elite Four, one Ghost and a dragon one. And there are not really effective against steel