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New version of "1, 2, 3" premieres March 4th - Reveals upcoming character returns

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
Maybe I’m not keeping up with Journeys as much as I should be has there ever been a battle outside of Ash that wasn’t Leon and shown fully?

If not I would love if they shake it up and gave us an Iris vs Paul battle or Marnie vs Bede/Korrina essentially treating it like BW tournaments where we got entire episodes of other characters battling.

It will be interesting seeing seeing who would win.

BW isn’t probably getting a remake any time soon, DP promotion is over and so is SWSH. It seems like they’re just bringing characters just because so they shouldn’t be segregated anymore and combine other characters from generations battling more. I think this only happened with Leon vs Lance and an offscreen of Korrina vs Bea
Agreeing strongly with this. Those tournament battles were one of the few things I think we can all agree BW did right and was a good thing about them.

I especially want something like Iris vs Paul since they're bringing back all these characters and it would be next level cringe to not have any of them do anything together outside character interactions. Iris makes sense since she's a champion, so Paul should find some level of interest in fighting her. Hell, Gary is the most iconic rival of Ash outside of Paul and these 2 didn't battle at all in DP despite the few times Gary showed up. Given how important the Ash/Paul rivalry was important for DP's anime storyline, it would've been so good to see Gary in the mix somehow, but both were only tied to Ash in their own separate interactions, something I hope Journeys also fixes for them.
 
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KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
Based on these 3 feats alone he should've been revered and well respected throughout his journeys in Unova,Kalos,Alola and Galar.The regions being far away from each other is a lame excuse for people to not know what is going on.The leagues are televised and there's been multiple occasions of characters watching Ash at the leagues.The announcer in the battle against Frontier Brain Tucker literally listed all of Ash's accomplishments to the crowd.
In some fairness, it could be that these leagues always aren't internationally shown at the time they take place? After all, Galar's the only region where gym battles explicitly get streamed publicly (even if only nation wide in Galar specifically).

And even if old characters like Misty or Max watch Ash battle in later leagues, it's not as if they are watching the entire time. Just maybe a quick 5 second snippet of "hey Ash is on screen in [insert here] league!"
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
There is nothing stopping the others from returning. There is still plenty of time - at least 30 episodes and who knows how many specials left.
I'm just going by the actual opening, of course it could be otherwise
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
I knew you’d be the first to respond (this isn’t a jab I actually like your enthusiasm for Paul).
Pikachu was not nerfed in BW. He lost that single battle against Trip but people still decide on being silly and ignoring that Zekrom thing but let’s move on. We’re also not gonna get into the fact that Pikachu had trouble defeating a Surskit in the beginning of XY. His levels always reset in each series but at least BW managed to care and explain this time and by the time the Club Tournament happened it was well into BW.

Iris only chickened out when she was fighting Trip because Axew was babied (and yes I’ll admit this) and Emolga just didn’t listen. Emolga still proved her power however. Excadrill was her ace and was only really seen losing probably twice. He got them her wins in that streak since he was originally her ace.

Honestly I was very young when those BF episodes came out so I’d have to rewatch those Brandon episodes but my point still stands.



It’s all good. My argument is essentially that Paul’s “strength” was only really shown against Ash and kinda Merylne (but even Ash beat her so and Dawn was pretty close as well). Other than that it’s all smoke and mirrors. Outside of that he defeated Barry but didn’t Ash? Somebody has to remind me about that.

Any other opponent the writers made him look crazy. So I’m not sure how Ash beating him is more creditable. I low key want him to humble Ash though in Journeys more than any other return.

But moving on, I actually kinda hope that Alan does return. Say what you want about his character arc and rivalry but he arguably had the best design out all of the rivals.
Also, this may bit controversial but when reading through your Iris and Paul comparison power scaling, there's also another thing I want to add in.

This isn't to diminish Paul skill or strength wise as he is still a powerful rival for Ash, but I always maintained the belief that the only reason Paul is seen as such a huge obstacle for Ash to overcome is because Ash limits himself to using his most recent pokemon that he's in the middle of developing rather than his veteran powerhouses. In DPs case, his sinnoh team.

Pauls brother Reggie and Brock even sort've commented on this during that first 6v6 battle Paul and Ash and at Lake Verity (?). When seeing Paul quickly take control of the battle, Reggie literally asked Brock if Ash was only using his new pokemon against him, with Brock confirming he was only using his Sinnoh-exclusive pokemon, besides Pikachu. And because of that, Ash at that time got trounced swiftly.

Because Ash's rival always only faces his new region-exclusives, they are given somewhat of the illusion of being ace trainers that Ash has to work super hard to defeat when, in reality, Ash could arguably stomp them easily with his old pokemon. Does anyone think Paul would've still won if Ash had used, say, Sceptile? Or his older bird pokemon like Swellow? Older water types like Corphish? Hell, Charizard of all things?

My belief gets intensified even further by the fact that Paul was super surprised to hear Ash had conquered the battle frontier (in the very previous series I'll add), something that neither he or even his talented big brother could come anywhere close to beating when Brandon came into the picture. Ash's old team was able to finally beat Brandon and even his Hoenn team held their own against him after beating the other Frontier Brains.

Not to mention, IIRC, Paul himself never challenged the battle frontier, only the leagues from Kanto - Hoenn. So it's more arguable that Ash's Hoenn team could handily win against Paul.

Not to say Paul is a weak trainer, because at the end of the day, he very much isn't. But at the same time, I always felt his standing against Ash gets overrated only because of comparing Ash's most recent team against him.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
I've always held my belief that the only reason XY gets any sort of praise is that it completely undid everything that Best Wishes tried to destroy about Ash... the problem was it did the 180 extreme and made Ash a total Shonen protagonist where nothing he did was ever looked at as wrong. The whole Battle Bond losing streak thing felt completely OOC for what XY established and immediately went right back to after that "struggle".

I mean think about it, Ash never went out of his way to make his Infernape use Blaze for its power, bar against Paul for the sole purpose of proving a point, it just happened on its own because Chimchar/Monferno/Infernape was consistently in intense matches. Ash never did anything in terms of specialized training to get it under control, he just went about training as usual. Why was Ash so insistent on Greninja using its pseudo-Mega form in the first place?
This is one of, if not, the thing I hated about XY Ash the most. And arguably, this guts his character growth he got in DP about this very thing.

His whole motto was hard work and perseverance gets results, with loving and trusting your Pokemon being the most important fundamental thing in this equation of getting stronger. Cheesy, but that has always been Ash from the beginning to DP, and even when Ash got Chimchar and its special blaze ability, which was basically the Ash-Greninja of DP, Ash didn't rely on it for battles. He didn't do training to specifically unlock it, and he literally vehemently opposed Paul's special training to unlock it in the tag-battle tourney episodes, where Paul almost costed Chimchar's life just to unlock it.

Of course, XY Ash doesnt go to the extent of harming Greninja's health just to get the power to work, but this idea of Ash thinking he needs to master the ability in order to get as far as he does undermines everything he did with his pokemon before IMO. And is something I personally don't forgive XY for.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Also, this may bit controversial but when reading through your Iris and Paul comparison power scaling, there's also another thing I want to add in.

This isn't to diminish Paul skill or strength wise as he is still a powerful rival for Ash, but I always maintained the belief that the only reason Paul is seen as such a huge obstacle for Ash to overcome is because Ash limits himself to using his most recent pokemon that he's in the middle of developing rather than his veteran powerhouses. In DPs case, his sinnoh team.

Pauls brother Reggie and Brock even sort've commented on this during that first 6v6 battle Paul and Ash and at Lake Verity (?). When seeing Paul quickly take control of the battle, Reggie literally asked Brock if Ash was only using his new pokemon against him, with Brock confirming he was only using his Sinnoh-exclusive pokemon, besides Pikachu. And because of that, Ash at that time got trounced swiftly.

Because Ash's rival always only faces his new region-exclusives, they are given somewhat of the illusion of being ace trainers that Ash has to work super hard to defeat when, in reality, Ash could arguably stomp them easily with his old pokemon. Does anyone think Paul would've still won if Ash had used, say, Sceptile? Or his older bird pokemon like Swellow? Older water types like Corphish? Hell, Charizard of all things?

My belief gets intensified even further by the fact that Paul was super surprised to hear Ash had conquered the battle frontier (in the very previous series I'll add), something that neither he or even his talented big brother could come anywhere close to beating when Brandon came into the picture. Ash's old team was able to finally beat Brandon and even his Hoenn team held their own against him after beating the other Frontier Brains.

Not to mention, IIRC, Paul himself never challenged the battle frontier, only the leagues from Kanto - Hoenn. So it's more arguable that Ash's Hoenn team could handily win against Paul.

Not to say Paul is a weak trainer, because at the end of the day, he very much isn't. But at the same time, I always felt his standing against Ash gets overrated only because of comparing Ash's most recent team against him.
Yeah I've said before that Ash would've beaten Paul more often than not prior to the league if he used Charizard,Glalie,Swellow,Heracross and Sceptile.But we should consider that Paul has other pokemon that we haven't seen on screen since he needed at least 6 pokemon to compete at the Hoenn,Johto and Kanto Leagues even if we assume he released pokemon in those regions.

He had Hariyama,Nidoking and Lairon against Brandon and mentioned in the Glory Blaze episode that Chimchar had the potential to be stronger than all of his fire-types.
Had Ash used his reserves the entire time he probably wouldn't have grown as much as he did.

Using only his DP team and losing to Paul multiple times despite the fact that they don't share the same philosophies as trainers and him believing that his methods were better than Paul's led to Ash becoming more focused as a trainer whether it be in battles or in training.None of the rivals before or after DP had this same effect on Ash.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
Also, this may bit controversial but when reading through your Iris and Paul comparison power scaling, there's also another thing I want to add in.

This isn't to diminish Paul skill or strength wise as he is still a powerful rival for Ash, but I always maintained the belief that the only reason Paul is seen as such a huge obstacle for Ash to overcome is because Ash limits himself to using his most recent pokemon that he's in the middle of developing rather than his veteran powerhouses. In DPs case, his sinnoh team.

Pauls brother Reggie and Brock even sort've commented on this during that first 6v6 battle Paul and Ash and at Lake Verity (?). When seeing Paul quickly take control of the battle, Reggie literally asked Brock if Ash was only using his new pokemon against him, with Brock confirming he was only using his Sinnoh-exclusive pokemon, besides Pikachu. And because of that, Ash at that time got trounced swiftly.

Because Ash's rival always only faces his new region-exclusives, they are given somewhat of the illusion of being ace trainers that Ash has to work super hard to defeat when, in reality, Ash could arguably stomp them easily with his old pokemon. Does anyone think Paul would've still won if Ash had used, say, Sceptile? Or his older bird pokemon like Swellow? Older water types like Corphish? Hell, Charizard of all things?

My belief gets intensified even further by the fact that Paul was super surprised to hear Ash had conquered the battle frontier (in the very previous series I'll add), something that neither he or even his talented big brother could come anywhere close to beating when Brandon came into the picture. Ash's old team was able to finally beat Brandon and even his Hoenn team held their own against him after beating the other Frontier Brains.

Not to mention, IIRC, Paul himself never challenged the battle frontier, only the leagues from Kanto - Hoenn. So it's more arguable that Ash's Hoenn team could handily win against Paul.

Not to say Paul is a weak trainer, because at the end of the day, he very much isn't. But at the same time, I always felt his standing against Ash gets overrated only because of comparing Ash's most recent team against him.
tbh I think that's far from a controversial opinion. In fact, I think the vast majority of the fandom agrees that most of Ash's defeats in later series, especially those against non-elite Trainers, are due to him not using his more experienced Pokémon (to the point of lunacy, honestly; he should at least use them in Leagues). It's actually one of the biggest gripes people have with Ash as a character.
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
tbh I think that's far from a controversial opinion. In fact, I think the vast majority of the fandom agrees that most of Ash's defeats in later series, especially those against non-elite Trainers, are due to him not using his more experienced Pokémon (to the point of lunacy, honestly; he should at least use them in Leagues). It's actually one of the biggest gripes people have with Ash as a character.
You cant really blame the fanbase. I mean in most series, they only use the Pokémon that available in that region, to promote them. JN is different promotes all the regions, yet they refuse to use reserves so far. And that, when you have an ideal setup for it, is a real shame..
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
You cant really blame the fanbase. I mean in most series, they only use the Pokémon that available in that region, to promote them. JN is different promotes all the regions, yet they refuse to use reserves so far. And that, when you have an ideal setup for it, is a real shame..
Oh, I most definitely don't blame the fanbase for wanting Ash's reserves to show up more often. Sinnoh shows that you can absolutely handle reserves with respect, and it's a shame he never really did something like that afterwards.
 
tbh I think that's far from a controversial opinion. In fact, I think the vast majority of the fandom agrees that most of Ash's defeats in later series, especially those against non-elite Trainers, are due to him not using his more experienced Pokémon (to the point of lunacy, honestly; he should at least use them in Leagues). It's actually one of the biggest gripes people have with Ash as a character.
Cough it’s why he lost Unova and Kalos
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
Oh, I most definitely don't blame the fanbase for wanting Ash's reserves to show up more often. Sinnoh shows that you can absolutely handle reserves with respect, and it's a shame he never really did something like that afterwards.
I honestly think that is because at this point we have so many reserves. And maybe they do not want to repeat a BW rotation type of situation again? People would complain some region wont be represented enough, some too much,etc....
 
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Blood Red

【推しの子】
Cough it’s why he lost Unova and Kalos
Correction: He lost Unova because of the reserves thing. He lost Kalos purely through bad writing.
I honestly think that is because at this point we have so many reserves. And maybe they do not want to repeat a BW rotation type of situation again? People would complain some region wont be represented enough, some too much,etc....
I get your point, but I still think it's ridiculous for Ash to not bring in, at least, his lesser-used reserves. Would people really complain about Kingler getting a bit more spotlight, or Torterra getting to do...I dunno, anything of consequence?
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
Correction: He lost Unova because of the reserves thing. He lost Kalos purely through bad writing.

I get your point, but I still think it's ridiculous for Ash to not bring in, at least, his lesser-used reserves. Would people really complain about Kingler getting a bit more spotlight, or Torterra getting to do...I dunno, anything of consequence?
I know what you mean. It would benefit pokemon like Noivern, Oshawott and Torkoal. But it is too late for that rn.
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
Honestly, unlike the most here, I do not mind Ash losing the Kalos League anymore. It was a close match. And I feel like he wasnt disappointed himself either. Like Alain pointed out himself, he felt like he never really won from Ash. Like let it go, has been 6 years. You can have your opinion, but why putting your energy in something that you cant change anymore?
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
It was the way Alain did it though. It’s very interesting how people say that somehow Ash was “regressed” in other series and how things didn’t make any sense but yet ignore how long it took him getting all of those badges vs Alain’s small amount of episodes. And before people run the excuse “HE WAS SIDETRACKED BY SERENA” keep in mind that the same thing happened in series where a Pokegirl was not in a competition (OS,BW,SM). And that’s not even mentioning the fact that her goal started almost in the middle of his badge quest and concluded before his final badge. Even if Alain had his Charizard transporting him it made no sense.
 
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