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No Sand Here (VGC Doubles)

Discussion in 'Older Gen RMT' started by Thowra, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    Remember me, from months ago when I had this badly co-ordinated team that had an unnerve ttar? Well, said ttar is back again, this time with teamates that can support it. Or rather, this time he can support the rest of his team. It's worked alright for me in online battles, but I always, always have problems against sand and rain teams, so I'd like some help there. Anyway, the team:

    Tyrannitar w/Choice specs
    Ability: Unnerve
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 252HP/252spA/4spe
    -Ice beam
    -Dark pulse

    Base 95 SpA is actually quite decent and makes him viable for a choice specs set. Due to his enormous special movepool he can cover quite a few threats. The only problem I have is his frailty: Any fighting type move will OHKO him and I can't replace the choice specs with chople berry or focus sash...can I? He can't do nearly as much damage without specs but sometimes he dies too early.

    For those wondering why he has surf, it's to beat sand teams and more importantly, for the next member of my team:

    Jellicent w/wacan berry
    Ability: water absorb
    Nature: Bold
    EVs: 158HP/100Def/178SpA/72spD/
    -Ice beam
    -Trick room

    A victim of the 4 move syndrome. I'd love to fit a shadow ball but there's no room; and in the end my team needs ice beam to take on dragons more than it needs shadow ball for ghosts. Scald to inflict possible burns, and trick room to help put the slower members of my team as well as reverse it.

    Gastrodon w/leftovers
    Ability: Storm drain
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 244hp/188def/28spA/48spD
    -Muddy water
    -earth power
    -Ice beam

    The other abuser of ttar's surf. Can also protect my team (aka TTar and Excadrill) from harmful water types.

    Sableye w/mental herb
    Ability: Prankster
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 252def/128def/128spD
    -Foul Play

    Sableye suffers a lot from the four move syndrome. I'd love to give him fake out, but with the annoyingly high number of opponents wasting my tailwinds with protect I realised I needed some way of punishing them. Taunt works great to stop others from setting up. Swagger+foul play gives him some way to stand his own ground, and a 50% chance of not being hit is great too.

    EVs to maximise his fragile defenses. 8 speed to outspeed and taunt other sableyes.

    Amoongus w/black sludge
    Ability: Regenerator
    Nature: Quiet
    EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SAtk
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 2 Spd
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    The classic trick room annoying mushroom. HP fire for the steel types who think they can wall the great mushroom.

    Excadrill w/expert belt
    Ability: Mold breaker
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 42HP/252Att/16Def/200Spe
    -Rock Slide

    Does the speed boost from choice scarf equate to a speed boost from sand rush? Because the whole point of excadrill is to bluff a sand rush set, considering that any player will assume sand rush excadrill when seeing ttar on the same team in preview.

    While mold breaker is hilarious in killing rotoms, he, too, dies so easily. With close combats, surfs and heat waves running rampant in double battles excadrill dies a lot.

    I'm not sure if he should be replaced, because a steel pokemon definitely discourages your opponent from using too many dragons...


    I know no one on my team has protect but honestly I can't find any space to put that move. If anyone has suggestions as to if I seriously need protect I'm happy to change movesets. I also desperately need either initimidate or reflect support, because no one on my team can take physical threats.

    The biggest plus of this team is that the presence of ttar, excadrill and gastrodon leads everyone to think it's a sand team. Then watch their faces as gastrodon starts nabbing surf boosts from ttar, and even worse, their whole team can't eat berries!


    Rain teams.
    Nothing on my team can withstand repeated surfs and draco meteor kingdras. I haven't played against many rain teams online but I don't need it to know that this team has huge problems in rain. I would gladly welcome a replacement to the current team.

    Sand teams:
    Opposing sand rush excadrill. They're almost always holding a focus sash which prevents mine from killing them outright. And then my own team members die the next turn.

    Sand veil+brightpowder garchomp. They're easier to deal with somewhat as most moves on my team has relatively high accuracy. I do get the occasional miss but ttar's ice beam+gastrodon's icy wind can usually handle him alright. A guy once swore at me when I KO'd his chomp with my ttar's ice beam and told me I only won because I abused hax. lol. I love creaming sand veil garchomps to the face.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2013
  2. Silvershark

    Silvershark HAWLUCHA!!!

    The Damage Calculator is your friend. Use it.

    Both Hp and Def. have four EV's that aren't doing anything. Take four from one and put them in the other. You have a lot of extra EV's that aren't doing anything on this team. Example:a lot of pokemon with 8 EV's, at level 50 (which VGC operates at) it takes 12 EV's to get two stat points. Nearly all your EV spreads need some work done on them.

    Another thing I noticed is your team is based heavily on high speed, so you'll have a hard time combating Trick Room. You might want to do something about that.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  3. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    Oh, I didn't realise it takes 12 EVs and not 8 to raise stats up by 2 points. Thanks!

    Also, is the double taunt on sableye and crobat not enough to combat trick room? Do you think then a slow intimidator like scrafty might work better than salamence? Or maybe even stoutland with intimidate (further giving the illusion of a sand team...?)
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  4. Silvershark

    Silvershark HAWLUCHA!!!

    Yeah, the conversion's something like 4 EV's for the first point, 8 for the rest. Even that varies depending on your IV's, so it's kinda weird.

    Taunt will stop the majority of teams running TR nowadays, but there still are some dedicated TR teams that run Mental Herb, which nullifies Taunt. The main problem I see is you have no plan B for TR. If it does happen to go up, GG, you're done for. You can't even Protect stall it out, not that's a good strategy, but at least it would be something.

    Here's a better spread for Gastrodon too:
    Calm nature W/ 244 Hp, 188 Def., 28 Sp. Atk., 44 Sp. Def., 4 Spd
    All around slightly bulkier than your previous set while still maintaining your offenses.
  5. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    Thanks for the EV spread, updated on Gastrodon.

    Also, I replace Salamence with Blissey, who can tank special hits excellently as well as hit back hard after a few boosts (explained in OP). And due to her slow speed she'll work well under trick room

    The only problem now is that I don't have intimidate support on my team, making the whole team incredibly weak to physical attacks. Anyone got a suggestion for another member replacement? Ideally I'd like intimidate support, if not then I don't mind reflect+light clay on a pokemon, but I don't think anyone other than Blissey can learn it...
  6. T-Bolt

    T-Bolt Electrifying.

    Hi! Remember me from last time?
    Anyway, your team is certainly interesting, there's quite a few nice concepts being put to use. So, about the flaws-

    Feint on Sableye. I've tried using feint before, but predicting when your opponent will protect is not really easy. True, protect is a very commonly seenn move, but there is a better alternative- Will-o-Wisp (or WoW for short). Sableye has prankster WoW, allowing it to shut down offensive pokemon. This is actually quite important, seeing that your team isn't really that physically defensive.

    Secondly, why Chople Berry on Blissey? The idea of using a Chople berry is to allow your pokemon to take a fighting type hit, and KO the threat in return, and I'm not really sure Blissey can do that. I'm not even sure if your Blissey set works, but I haven't tested it, so I wouldn't know.

    Thirdly EVs. Running 252 Hp/128 def/128 SpDef is better if you want to maximize Sableye's defensive capabilities. You could invest 252 EVs in SpDef, if you run WoW.

    Then Blissey's EVs. I think it would be better to dump all its SpD EVs in Hp. It would make more of a difference that way.
  7. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    I tried WoW on Sableye once, but it has such terrible accuracy. Should I make him hold a scope lens then to compensate for the accuracy change? I'm paranoid over accuracy; on a previous WoW build Sableye missed three times in a row and got killed. Another team I ran had a chandelure with heat wave. My opponent and I were both down to our last pokemon - scizor vs chandy. My chadelure on full health got killed by scizor because heat wave missed five times in a row. Since then I have never used any moves with less thatn 90 accuracy, because I simply cannot afford to miss attacks during VGC.

    Chople berry on blissey to take a physical hit...the idea behind this blissey was to make her a surprise sweeper, as at 6+ spA she's going to murder everything with pseudo boltbeam coverage (ice beam and charge beam). Then when her health is low softboiled. But you're right - after the berry is used up she's going to die at the next fighting move. I'm changing the chople to leftovers and moving those spD EVs into HP.

    I've also changed sableye according to your suggestions, and replaced gastrodon with jellicent for trick room support.

    The problem with my team, I guess, is that it's simply not offensive enough. They can wall but they can't KO, and eventually every member just gets worn down...
  8. T-Bolt

    T-Bolt Electrifying.

    I don't really use attacking moves with low accuracy too, but WoW effectively decommissions a physical attacker, and Sableye has priority on WoW, which makes it a huge plus. Many people actually use Sableye for it's access to WoW, and I think its benefits outweigh its cons.

    Anyway, I think you should stick with Gastrodon, Since you want people to think you're running a sand team. Plus, you would really need it to fight rain teams. And it would work as an offensive Pokemon with Ttar.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  9. philzone

    philzone Ready for trumpets

    try amoonguss over blissey, for the destruction of rain. it also helps with jellicent, so your team can have a TR aspect. switch jellicent and tyranitars natures to relaxed and quiet respectively, to do well in TR. also, it can counter other TR teams, by reversing the TR. excadrill->metagross. this lets you do well under TR and stops fighting types, and deal damage to ice weak pokemon, with ice punch.
  10. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    Eh, I tried putting WoW back on Sableye again, but the 75 accuracy is just too low for me (played about 10 matches on the showdown server and WoW missed at least once in every match -.-). :( When it boils down to winning a match based on whether WoW lands or not, I don't think I can take that kind of risk. I'm replacing Blissey with Gastrodon, as she's not doing anything to my team besides wall attacks and she falls eventually anyway.

    Crobat's gone too, replaced by Amoongus. I'm still a bit iffy over replacing Excadrill with Metagross though, as I want to bluff a sand rush set and mold breaker is hilarious in killing rotoms. I think I may change the choice scarf to expert belt or something, I hate being choice locked when I'm down to my last pokemon...
  11. philzone

    philzone Ready for trumpets

    Are you going for a defencive amoonguss? I made a bulky amoonguss set the other day, and it is pretty amazing.
    Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 2 Spd
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Basically your defencive variant with more offence. rage powder lets you set up TR on jellicent. Spore is brilliant, and the thing is a good TR counter. 2 spd for hp fire, and to out speed other amoonguss out of TR. Giga drain hits for massive damage, and hurts many things unprepaired. HP fire stops scizor, as tar loses to scizor's bullet punch, and gives the suprise. it lets you give gastrodon a run for the money, and stops 252hp swampert, which is becoming quite common.
  12. Thowra

    Thowra The Silver Brumby

    Wow, thanks for the spread on Amooongus! I managed to nail a scizor with it, and it was so hilarious ^.^
  13. philzone

    philzone Ready for trumpets

    That is what I love about that set. They send in scizor, and don't expect the HP fire, until too late. Good thing is, that it can withstand a Draco gem draco meteor from timid max spatt latios, so should help vs kingdra. Just set up TR, and then spore everything. it is hilarious
  14. silverangel

    silverangel Metal Fairy

    Well, this is just a suggestion for now.

    Jellicent should have Water Spout and Gastrodon should have Surf. Gastrodon's Surf can be used to keep it in top condition, while Jellicent can fire powerful Base 150 (112 after the reduction) water STAB move. Of course, that's if Gastrodon's Storm Drain doesn't draw in Water Spout.

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