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November 11th: PM2019 132 - The Finals IV: Partner

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Gingertail24

Well-Known Member
The fact the the summary said "muster the last of their strength" when talking about Charizard battle has me concerned. Makes me wonder if he will lose to Leon because of Cinderace.

Although maybe Leon sent out cinderace real quick but it lost and now Charizard has to finish it up
 
TheNewGuy

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Almighty Zard said:
All I want to say is this.

I'm seeing some say Pikachu defeating Charizard but losing to Cinderace is "Anti-Climatic", maybe it is to some extent, but considering Leon's Charizard's track record and how it's never lost on screen (like Cynthia's Garchomp), seeing that thing go down imo would be a huge impact moment even if Leon still wins, because of how iconic driven it's presence is in the games and the anime.

I also don't think Pikachu being outnumbered should be such a big deal since we've had other battles before where Ash was outnumbered and still came out on top, and not just his previous match with cynthia either.

on that note i'm out.
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It's just weird as hell. If you're going to commit to Pikachu beating Charizard, why not just commit to Ash winning the whole thing? Like, go all the way here. It's a bit of a cop-out, almost a middle ground.
 
Hunter Zolomon

Hunter Zolomon

Into the Shadows
Staff member
Moderator
I want to think that Leon recalls Zard, and Pikachu knocks out Cinderace. Then we get our 1 on 1 Pikachu vs Zard match.

However, If Pikachu beats Leon's Zard (which has never took an L on screen) but then loses to Cinderace....That will go down as some of the dumbest writing of all time.

I'll honestly get annoyed over a Pokemon episode for the first time since August 18th, 2016....
 
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AJ97

Well-Known Member
Under the circumstances, the odds look slim in Ash's favour. That said, having Ash beat both Charizard and Cinderace with Pikachu would eliminate any doubts about Ash being the undisputed PWC champion. Considering Leon is the World's strongest undefeated trainer; it would make sense to raise Pikachu to OP Status to give it a win here.

Nevertheless, I can't see Leon's Charizard going down without any wins.
I predict
>G-Max Pikachu vs G-Max Cinderace (With Pikachu winning)
>Base Pikachu vs Base Charizard (With Charizard winning)

Another interesting approach they could take is to have both Charizard and Pikachu fall (With Pikachu falling first (A couple of seconds before), resulting in Leon being the winner
 
GhostWallker98

GhostWallker98

Well-Known Member
For the "Final Battle", it would be very disappointing. So far, they have been on a roll in terms of action and suspense in the past 3 parts. They would definitely ruin it if Pikachu loses to Cinderace. There has to be a catch. I honestly don't think he's going to lose to Cinderace.
 
sutellakiara

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
Almighty Zard said:
All I want to say is this.

I'm seeing some say Pikachu defeating Charizard but losing to Cinderace is "Anti-Climatic", maybe it is to some extent, but considering Leon's Charizard's track record and how it's never lost on screen (like Cynthia's Garchomp), seeing that thing go down imo would be a huge impact moment even if Leon still wins, because of how iconic driven it's presence is in the games and the anime.
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Yeah except Garchomp was the last Pokemon left. That completely re-contextualizes the defeat. And let's be honest, no one cares about Leon's Charizard THAT much. Garchomp going down is impactful for reasons that needn't be re-stated.

It's super duper ultra mega hyper anti-climatic and leaves absolutely everyone dissatisfied and with no one winning.
All this whole tournament would for nothing, and no, dont' give me the "A-Ash is still the second strongest in the world so it's okay!" when you have the whole entire damn season with Ash going "Dande-san ni battoru suru!" every five minutes.
All the Champions jobbing, specially the ones sacrificed to Leon, was for nothing.
Leon losing is a critical part for his future character development and him winning robs him of that.
Ash doesn't end up fulfilling his real goal of the season (yeah you could argue that the real goal was just battling Leon and not winning but c'mon man).

There's a narrative reason why battles end on ace vs ace with no one left 99% of the time. Hell, it's not even a Pokemon thing, it is a basic narrative thing.

It's a cop-out middle ground where everyone ends up "looking good" but it's unsatisfying as hell and in reality no one wins but not one really loses. It's a borderline consolation prize. Why the hell would anyone want this? Even the rat just straight up losing while him and the lizard are the last remaining ones would be better if only barely.
 
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togenaught18

Well-Known Member
Sham said:
So he beats the unbeatable ace but not the unbeatable trainer? I guess they’re trying to accommodate everybody. The Gorilla smashed through Ash’s team (95 episodes too late but whatever) and Leon will officially have been added to the “who beat Ash club” aka Rinto and Bea so all is well.
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Dont forget the two random people who beat riolu lol. Imagine their reaction if Ash wins
 
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AJ97

Well-Known Member
sutellakiara said:
Yeah except Garchomp was the last Pokemon left. That completely re-contextualizes the defeat. And let's be honest, no one cares about Leon's Charizard THAT much. Garchomp going down is impactful for reasons that needn't be re-stated.
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GTFO here with your Cynthia Simping.
No one cares about Charizard that much? Lmao..
Leon's Charizard is the strongest Trainer Owned Pokemon in the Franchise.
 
Sonic Boom

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
If all Leon had left after Charizard was a random-ass Rhyperior or Seismitoad, I would understand the ire in that being the last one standing.

But this is Cinderace. It's Goh's first Pokemon. Ash deliberately made note of Cinderace and Inteleon in the first part and how it relates to Goh. If any Pokemon deserves to be the last one left, it's the rabbit.



Leon's undefeated, but, so is Charizard. It's such a perfect record that defeating Charizard is practically the same as beating Leon to the world, and is going to make a statement in its own right, even if Leon wins in the end. We can certainly assume Cinderace has lost before. So if Charizard breaks, then that's as good an indication as any that had things gone differently, Ash could have come out on top, but strategical missteps occurred to prevent the impossible, and Leon's greater amount of battling experience - a distinction Ono made in that interview before the battle that separates Leon from Ash - that allows him the prescience to keep Cinderace in the back is what cost Ash the win in this scenario.

Ash lost this one battle simulation out of 100. That's better than anyone else being ensured to go 0/100.
 
GhostWallker98

GhostWallker98

Well-Known Member
I guess it is still possible for him to win. I hope Cinderace gets taken down very quickly if he gets switched in the middle of the Pikachu vs Charizard fight.
 
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AJ97

Well-Known Member
Ali.Frenstein said:
Come on guys no chance Ash is winning this...even if Pikachu draws with Charizard or defeats it (which I don't believe will happen), Leon still has Cinderace left. :(
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The thing is, Journey's has intentionally always introduced surprise/shock elements making many instances of the plot unpredictable.
Not saying all of the additions have been good or anything like that; but this has stayed consistent with the writing this series.

1) Having Ash use G-Max against Raihan (Despite the Lucario training episode right before).
2) Cynthia using Dynamax
3) Drasna's Mega Altaria falling first
4) Mega Lucario losing to Dragapult
5) Goh capturing Suicune & Sobble

So if we look at the series from a more predictable route; then yes, Ash has no chance. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers intentionally decided to setup the "Ash will likely lose narrative" and end the series with a surprise.
Back in Kalos, the predictable narrative would've been for Ash to win the league and beat Alain as he always beats a Main Rival at least once.
However, we had the surprise twist of him losing.

What if they switch things around in Ash's favour this time?
 
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AJ97

Well-Known Member
sutellakiara said:
Sometimes I wonder if you're a bot trained by OLM or TPC to defend the anime at all costs or something like that.
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There's a difference between constructive criticism and you simply hating and complaining on every little thing in the show you personally don't like.

You outright claim noboy cares about Leon's Charizard and everyone care about Cynthia's Garchomp which is just a biased opinion from a Cynthia stan.

Leon's Charizard is the strongest Pokemon in the Franchise. It's condition and battle against Ash is absolutely far more quintessential to the plot than anything; as Ash's performance against the same would measure how close Pikachu is to be the Strongest Trainer Owned Pokemon in the Franchise.

If Pikachu beats Charizard, it would be the Strongest Trainer Owned Pokemon in the Franchise...
 
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