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Oct 13th: XY&Z045 - One Last Battle with Ash! Serena's Choice!!

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Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I don't know why everyone's so eager for Serena to complete this battle. Serena's in a no-win situation here. If she wins everyone will dump on her for beating the god of Kalos. If she loses she leaves the anime a even bigger loser then the anime already made her out to be. If she ties or it gets interrupted she'll be criticized for not finishing another battle. This is why non-battling characters in Pokemon don't work and Serena's now being forced into a situation where she can only come out a stinker. The anime never ceases to amaze with how poorly thought out this character was. Realistically this should be a Cynthia level slaughter. Who thought this was a good idea to send her off?

I won't be dumping on her so it won't be everyone :p I'd rather she won anyways and I don't really particularly care about that DEM crap of an argument since it happens almost all the time in every series that we've had so far anyways.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
I don't know why everyone's so eager for Serena to complete this battle. Serena's in a no-win situation here. If she wins everyone will dump on her for beating the god of Kalos. If she loses she leaves the anime a even bigger loser then the anime already made her out to be. If she ties or it gets interrupted she'll be criticized for not finishing another battle. This is why non-battling characters in Pokemon don't work and Serena's now being forced into a situation where she can only come out a stinker. The anime never ceases to amaze with how poorly thought out this character was. Realistically this should be a Cynthia level slaughter. Who thought this was a good idea to send her off?
I loved Serena characters. Yes, it had its flaws but that's what made her special.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The whole 'always winning through dubious means' never seemed intentional however. In fact it seemed like you were supposed to think she was a hard working underdog in the showcases and her Team Rocket battles and see it as her becoming more competent. That's why I didn't like that aspect, it felt more like glorified bad writing.
 

Platinum fan.

RetiredPokemonMaster
Meh, if she loses, at least her incredibly dubious winning streak will have ended and we'll see one of her Pokemon faint (and thus feel pain and display proper pathos) for the first time. I just want to see a battle all the way through where she actually is made to put in some effort and competence.

What winning streak? Other then that battle with Miette, which had to force Ash and James in there as well, what battles have Serena won? I can't think of any, they are always cut short. For whatever reason the writers made sure to never let her look strong or competent in battle by her own strengths. Please tell me what her win streak is.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
What I mean it's dubious in the sense that while she rarely outright defeats an opponent herself, something always happens to prevent her from suffering an official loss, so she is the technical winner. She has NEVER had one of her Pokemon faint once, that's got to be a record for someone her level.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
What I mean it's dubious in the sense that while she rarely outright defeats an opponent herself, something always happens to prevent her from suffering an official loss, so she is the technical winner. She has NEVER had one of her Pokemon faint once, that's got to be a record for someone her level.

I specifically remember Fennekin fainting from Squirtle in a double battle. They did win the battle though.
 

Platinum fan.

RetiredPokemonMaster
What I mean it's dubious in the sense that while she rarely outright defeats an opponent herself, something always happens to prevent her from suffering an official loss, so she is the technical winner. She has NEVER had one of her Pokemon faint once, that's got to be a record for someone her level.

Fennekin has fainted. I'm sure I mentioned the Tierno, Shauna, and Trevor battle. Her team won ultimately but she played no part in it, was the weak link, and was not happy about it. She has lost.
 

ArcaneStar

Village Idiot
What winning streak? Other then that battle with Miette, which had to force Ash and James in there as well, what battles have Serena won? I can't think of any, they are always cut short. For whatever reason the writers made sure to never let her look strong or competent in battle by her own strengths. Please tell me what her win streak is.

"...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." - Einstein

Serena's character never revolved around Pokemon battles or her competence at them. Serena's story is about a young girl living in the shadow of her mother until a sudden catalyst grants her the chance to find her own path. (Keyword: FIND) Serena spent a long time trying to decide what her goals and aspirations would be. She good to honest simply didn't know what she wanted to do in life because she had been following her mother's dream until that moment. She is a relateable character in that sense.

Her crush on Ash served as the fuel for her to keep journeying and encounter new opportunities she never knew were there. Traveling with others granted her the experience of seeing the drive that existed in those that knew what they wanted and were desperate to obtain it.

Performances granted Serena the chance to showcase her already existing strengths as well as develop abilities and traits that she never had before.
Ash may have lost 5 leagues at the point of her first showcase but Serena cried because it was the first time she had thrown all of her worth into the fray only for it to end in failure. Here was a girl who experienced real failure for the FIRST time.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on Pokemon battles because battling has always been the centerpiece of Pokemon in both anime and games. Serena' character has nothing to do with battling.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based comparing her to companions of previous generations. Serena is Serena and she has her own story to tell and hurdles to face. Perhaps a certain hurdle is more easily passed by Dawn and proves challenging for Serena? It doesn't matter. This is Serena's story and the emphasis is on how much more important it is for SERENA when she overcomes that hurdle. Evaluate a character based on her OWN merits not other's.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on her "feminine" qualities. Why is it wrong for a girl to be feminine? Why is it wrong for a girl to pursue a feminine goal? Using the same logic men should be looked down upon for pursuing football (American version). A girl can be feminine and strong in her own regard.

Serena's battle with Ash isn't about the outcome. It's about her stepping into Ash's world for a brief moment. It's about getting the chance to truly see him and communicate with him using his own language. It's about Serena obtaining yet another experience she would have never known had she never left home. It's about testing Serena's resolve about everything that she knew and finally putting away the aimless girl back home.

Serena is finally going to venture out on her own. Everything that she learned is about to be truly tested. Serena has to pursue her goal using her own motivations and her own drive.

Serena's journey is just barely starting.
 
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Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
"...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." - Einstein

Serena's character never revolved around Pokemon battles or her competence at them. Serena's story is about a young girl living in the shadow of her mother until a sudden catalyst grants her the chance to find her own path. (Keyword: FIND) Serena spent along time trying to decide what her goals and aspirations would be. She good to honest simply didn't know what she wanted to do in life because she had been following her mother's dream until that moment. She is a relateable character in that sense.

Her crush on Ash served as the fuel for her to keep journeying and encounter new opportunities she never knew where there. Traveling with others granted her the experience of seeing the drive that existed in those that knew what they wanted and were desperate to obtain it.

Performances granted Serena the chance to showcase her already existing strengths as well as develop abilities and traits that she never had before.
Ash may have lost 5 leagues at the point of her first showcase but Serena cried because it was the first time she had thrown all of her worth into the fray only for it to end I failure. Here was a girl who experienced real failure for the FIRST time.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on Pokemon battles because battling has always been the centerpiece of Pokemon in both anime and games. Serena' character has nothing to do with battling.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based comparing her to companions of previous generations. Serena is Serena and she has her own story to tell and hurdles to face. Perhaps a certain hurdle is more easily passed by Dawn and proves challenging for Serena? Doesn't matter. This is Serena's story and the emphasis is on how much important it is for SERENA when she overcomes that hurdle. Evaluate a character based on her OWN merits not other's.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on her "feminine" qualities. Why is it wrong for a girl to be feminine? Why is it wrong for a girl to pursue a feminine goal? Using the same logic men should be looked down upon for pursuing football (American version). A girl can be feminine and strong in her own regard.

Serena's battle with Ash isn't about the outcome. It's about her stepping into Ash's world for a brief moment. It's about getting the chance to truly see him and communicate with him using his own language. It's about Serena obtaining yet another experience she would have never known had she never left home. It's about testing Serena's resolve about everything that she knew and finally putting away the aimless girl back home.

Serena is finally going to venture out on her own. Everything that she learned is about to be truly tested. Serena has to pursue her goal using her own motivations and her own drive.

Serena's journey is just barely starting.

omg this so much!

I still want her to win though even if the outcome really means nothing towards her character.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It's just I kinda wish there was point in something, ANYTHING, she was shown to have to work for it. She just never feels challenged, not in battles or showcases. There's some personal emotional challenges, which kind of work for the slice of life plot, but in terms of an action series, she feels unaccomplished and overprotected. As mentioned even in suffering the losing side she felt undeveloped because something always saved her from facing a proper defeat, sometimes in a grating deus ex machina sort of way, which again takes it's toll on the action format.

Ash is a master at battles, but even then he isn't unstoppable. He had to strive to win the gym matches. Serena never felt pressured or hard working. Even the ways she lost in the showcases felt contrived, like she would have won all of them from the very start if her Pokemon hadn't randomly slipped. She never had to alter her strategy because of that excuse. Just having one time early on someone legitimately outperformed her would have made it feel more like she had real competition and she was needing to put legitimate effort into it, and the universe wasn't bending so she always won no matter what. It says something that Jessie's progression (who had far more experience coordinating) felt far more realistic than her's, having slowly climbed the ladder before she started winning steadily (and even then it's easy to assume her first win would have easily been Serena's if Eevee hadn't tripped, again the plot buffering and excusing her).

Serena was the privileged one that always got handed victory regardless of competence, while all her opponents were her underdogs that trained and worked harder just to lose, making it very hard to root for her.
 
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KungFuMaster

KungFu Zen Mode
"...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." - Einstein

Serena's character never revolved around Pokemon battles or her competence at them. Serena's story is about a young girl living in the shadow of her mother until a sudden catalyst grants her the chance to find her own path. (Keyword: FIND) Serena spent a long time trying to decide what her goals and aspirations would be. She good to honest simply didn't know what she wanted to do in life because she had been following her mother's dream until that moment. She is a relateable character in that sense.

Her crush on Ash served as the fuel for her to keep journeying and encounter new opportunities she never knew were there. Traveling with others granted her the experience of seeing the drive that existed in those that knew what they wanted and were desperate to obtain it.

Performances granted Serena the chance to showcase her already existing strengths as well as develop abilities and traits that she never had before.
Ash may have lost 5 leagues at the point of her first showcase but Serena cried because it was the first time she had thrown all of her worth into the fray only for it to end in failure. Here was a girl who experienced real failure for the FIRST time.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on Pokemon battles because battling has always been the centerpiece of Pokemon in both anime and games. Serena' character has nothing to do with battling.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based comparing her to companions of previous generations. Serena is Serena and she has her own story to tell and hurdles to face. Perhaps a certain hurdle is more easily passed by Dawn and proves challenging for Serena? It doesn't matter. This is Serena's story and the emphasis is on how much more important it is for SERENA when she overcomes that hurdle. Evaluate a character based on her OWN merits not other's.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on her "feminine" qualities. Why is it wrong for a girl to be feminine? Why is it wrong for a girl to pursue a feminine goal? Using the same logic men should be looked down upon for pursuing football (American version). A girl can be feminine and strong in her own regard.

Serena's battle with Ash isn't about the outcome. It's about her stepping into Ash's world for a brief moment. It's about getting the chance to truly see him and communicate with him using his own language. It's about Serena obtaining yet another experience she would have never known had she never left home. It's about testing Serena's resolve about everything that she knew and finally putting away the aimless girl back home.

Serena is finally going to venture out on her own. Everything that she learned is about to be truly tested. Serena has to pursue her goal using her own motivations and her own drive.

Serena's journey is just barely starting.

Couldn't told the story better. Claps.
You just got me
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
I don't think anyone is truly complaining against Serena's character as a whole, but rather how the writers decide to execute it. If it was done properly, then Serena's story could have been much better, but the development was staggering and the goal was rushed to a point where it almost felt like the writes didn't give one damn about Serena. Having a canon crush is fine and all, but if you can't even make a proper progression that sounds somewhat believable, then drop it. Focus on building the foundation before you add the decorations, not the other way around. It almost feels like the writers did a bottom-up approach on Serena's character, which rarely works.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
As I said before, Serena is perfectly likeable, just not very rootable. In fact considering the more actionized format, the XY twerp squad as a whole kinda had it a bit too relaxed this series to often be that enticed in them winning.

Their personalities were likeable enough (except maybe Ash being a bit dull at times), they provided lots of comedy and charm, there was even some endearing subtle details they put in with acting and animation this time round, just you never really root for the guy who always wins without even trying.
 
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Caseydia

Ace Trainer
Ash grabbing Serena's hand doesn't mean anything. Shippers are just setting themselves for disappointment.

Serena battling in this episode rather than crying and being over emotional for a 10 year old as herself would have given them clues that Serena is not just shipping bait on a show mostly about creatures being used to compete against one another.

In terms of just any sort of competition or even just standard 'good against evil' face-offs however, Serena has always felt safe guarded, either her opponents were always dumbed down so she could win with a single cheap shot or someone protected her. She never really had to face a real adversity full on, as in a real fight where she was having to learn to resist offence rather than just dish it out (or when she did she was completely useless and needed rescuing). It affects her rootablity to me, I can't cheer on a character that always has it easy, especially when they never really earned it.

I agree. They mostly did that to not make her fans upset even though she's technically not much of a battler. They tend to do that a lot for female characters who are loved by fans compared to males.

She never felt challenged against Team Rocket, she never felt challenged in the showcases, she never felt challenged against Team Flare, she never felt in any situation where her winning was a half way accomplishment because the odds were already totally in her favour (and they even tend to go out of their way to show if they weren't she would have probably failed miserably). I mean, she's likeable, but she's no hard working underdog.

Team rocket shouldn't be a threat to no one. I don't know why people get impressed that someone other than Ash can defeat a bunch of fools like them.

As for lampshading, well her arc had finished so her role essentially became a background character again. I don't think she would have battled much to improve her skills because then it detracts from Ash's story winning the gyms/league.

Just because Ash had his league going on doesn't mean she couldn't do anything. I mean we had a episode about Axew getting lost in the Unova league for crying out loud, so Serena training or whatever in between that just like May and Dawn did would have been fine if they thought about doing it for her.

I don't know why everyone's so eager for Serena to complete this battle. Serena's in a no-win situation here. If she wins everyone will dump on her for beating the god of Kalos. If she loses she leaves the anime a even bigger loser then the anime already made her out to be. If she ties or it gets interrupted she'll be criticized for not finishing another battle. This is why non-battling characters in Pokemon don't work and Serena's now being forced into a situation where she can only come out a stinker. The anime never ceases to amaze with how poorly thought out this character was. Realistically this should be a Cynthia level slaughter. Who thought this was a good idea to send her off?

I guess they thought this would be better than having her have a mental break down on screen over her husbando leaving her. I mean if they only used their heads, they could get another performer to give her the push she needs in order to get better. And then maybe get someone to give her the idea of continuing on her dream. That way this battle doesn't have to take place in order to make Ash look worse then he already is or make Serena look over powered for someone who barely battles in the first place.

I don't think anyone is truly complaining against Serena's character as a whole, but rather how the writers decide to execute it. If it was done properly, then Serena's story could have been much better, but the development was staggering and the goal was rushed to a point where it almost felt like the writes didn't give one damn about Serena. Having a canon crush is fine and all, but if you can't even make a proper progression that sounds somewhat believable, then drop it. Focus on building the foundation before you add the decorations, not the other way around. It almost feels like the writers did a bottom-up approach on Serena's character, which rarely works.

Well said. It's too bad no one said this back when they were spamming Amourshipping more than Serena's actual development as a whole.

As I said before, Serena is perfectly likeable, just not very rootable. In fact considering the more actionized format, the XY twerp squad as a whole kinda had it a bit too relaxed this series to often be that enticed in them winning.

Their personalities were likeable enough (except maybe Ash being a bit dull at times), they provided lots of comedy and charm, there was even some endearing subtle details they put in with acting and animation this time round, just you never really root for the guy who always wins without even trying.

I remember a time when Serena was not so likable and I still feel the same way. I don't like how a character is judged based on who they get shipped with rather than what they are doing on screen as a whole. I just wished she had something else to do other than being a performer. I don't like the competition and found it boring and unnecessary. There is a such thing as girly but I felt they over did it with this. At least with contest there was a sense of badass within it from time to time.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Team rocket shouldn't be a threat to no one. I don't know why people get impressed that someone other than Ash can defeat a bunch of fools like them.

Truthfully, until about XYZ at least, Team Rocket had a decent enough compromise of bumbling and competent. The problem however was that, while this made them look less pathetic against the twerps, the show's usual solution to defeating their more menacing plans was, rather than having Ash and co sweat and work a bit more to stop them and prove they could take the extra challenge, they'd have another character or dumb luck swoop in and stop them instead (Mega Meowth Madness, Coming Back Into The Cold, ALL of the episodes concerning an evolution or an ME, etc), thus the twerps still won without trying anyway. This had the bad side effect of sometimes making Team Rocket look more hard working and competent while the twerps were just lucky and hadn't proved their worth. Only Ash and his Pokemon handled a fair amount of 'not completely harmless' Team Rocket face-offs by themselves with skill and resilience (eg. Grooming Furfrou, Frenzied Factory Fiasco, the wetland two parter), the others could only handle them at their most incompetent (as in just standing there gloating and not really offering any sort of retaliation), thus like you say, not really an accomplishment. The only reason they seem more capable now is because TR have been dumbed down more and more and thus can't show them up anymore (though the odd time they convert back it still shows, the twerps are still useless against their mechs for example). This is 'cheating' in terms of writing, since the whole point is that the twerps are supposed to be getting smarter and stronger, not Team Rocket getting dumber and weaker.

Still, even with that reasoning it's not exactly a good writing method. Team Rocket is the twerps' main opponent the whole series and who they most recurrently show any display of progression and improvement against. If they fail to make the twerps look good against them (either because they are TOO weak or their method of defeat is too spurious), then they fail their role as foils to the heroes. Maybe this is why so many fans think they became superfluous this series.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
game battling aint too realistic to be fair :p

Truthfully, until about XYZ at least, Team Rocket had a decent enough compromise of bumbling and competent. The problem however was that, while this made them look less pathetic against the twerps, the show's usual solution to defeating their more menacing plans was, rather than having Ash and co sweat and work a bit more to stop them and prove they could take the extra challenge, they'd have another character or dumb luck swoop in and stop them instead (Mega Meowth Madness, Coming Back Into The Cold, ALL of the episodes concerning an evolution or an ME, etc), thus the twerps still won without trying anyway. This had the bad side effect of sometimes making Team Rocket look more hard working and competent while the twerps were just lucky and hadn't proved their worth. Only Ash and his Pokemon handled a fair amount of 'not completely harmless' Team Rocket face-offs by themselves with skill and resilience (eg. Grooming Furfrou, Frenzied Factory Fiasco, the wetland two parter), the others could only handle them at their most incompetent (as in just standing there gloating and not really offering any sort of retaliation), thus like you say, not really an accomplishment. The only reason they seem more capable now is because TR have been dumbed down more and more and thus can't show them up anymore (though the odd time they convert back it still shows, the twerps are still useless against their mechs for example). This is 'cheating' in terms of writing, since the whole point is that the twerps are supposed to be getting smarter and stronger, not Team Rocket getting dumber and weaker.

Still, even with that reasoning it's not exactly a good writing method. Team Rocket is the twerps' main opponent the whole series and who they most recurrently show any display of progression and improvement against. If they fail to make the twerps look good against them (either because they are TOO weak or their method of defeat is too spurious), then they fail their role as foils to the heroes. Maybe this is why so many fans think they became superfluous this series.

So you're upset that TR hasn't shown progress? To be fair, the protagonist of the show Ash Ketchum hasn't shown a steady progress in the anime series as a whole.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
So you're upset that TR hasn't shown progress? To be fair, the protagonist of the show Ash Ketchum hasn't shown a steady progress in the anime series as a whole.

Well they've shown progress in legitimate things. I mean more the fact they're dumbing them down and ruining their foliage of the heroes just so they can take the 'lazy man's route' and make it look falsely like the twerps have gotten any better by comparison, rather than keeping them the same level fearsomeness they were at the start of XY and show the twerps stopping them through genuine bettered skill. In short their uselessness is ruining their's AND the heroes' development.

Even writers for lop sided rivalries have a limit. Bugs Bunny writers for example started to draw the line with Elmer Fudd since they thought he was TOO pathetic. While he was meant to be a bumbler, the whole point was meant to be that Bugs was outdoing him because he was intelligent, a trait hard to establish when, as one staff member complained 'A chicken could outsmart Elmer'. The same could be said for trying to make the twerps look skilled when a novice could defeat their XYZ-level schemes. It's why so many still think Serena is completely incompetent after beating them so many times. What halfwit couldn't?

It seemed like after BW, the writers might have learned not to make Team Rocket look too pathetic and underdog-ish and at least partway make Ash's team look rootable, but they just slipped into the same habits, only arguably even worse.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Well they've shown progress in legitimate things. I mean more the fact they're dumbing them down and ruining their foliage of the heroes just so they can take the 'lazy man's route' and make it look falsely like the twerps have gotten any better by comparison, rather than keeping them the same level fearsomeness they were at the start of XY and show the twerps stopping them through genuine bettered skill. In short their uselessness is ruining their's AND the heroes' development.

Even writers for lop sided rivalries have a limit. Bugs Bunny writers for example started to draw the line with Elmer Fudd since they thought he was TOO pathetic. While he was meant to be a bumbler, the whole point was meant to be that Bugs was beating him because he was intelligent, which was hard to establish when, as one staff member complained 'A chicken could outsmart Elmer'. The same could be said for trying to make the twerps look skilled when a novice could defeat their current schemes.

It seemed like after BW, the writers might have learned not to make Team Rocket look too pathetic and underdog-ish and at least partway make Ash's team look rootable, but they just slipped into the same habits, only arguably even worse.
There has to be some action in almost every episode. That's actually the purpose of the Team Rocket Trio.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
"...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." - Einstein

Serena's character never revolved around Pokemon battles or her competence at them. Serena's story is about a young girl living in the shadow of her mother until a sudden catalyst grants her the chance to find her own path. (Keyword: FIND) Serena spent a long time trying to decide what her goals and aspirations would be. She good to honest simply didn't know what she wanted to do in life because she had been following her mother's dream until that moment. She is a relateable character in that sense.

Her crush on Ash served as the fuel for her to keep journeying and encounter new opportunities she never knew were there. Traveling with others granted her the experience of seeing the drive that existed in those that knew what they wanted and were desperate to obtain it.

Performances granted Serena the chance to showcase her already existing strengths as well as develop abilities and traits that she never had before.
Ash may have lost 5 leagues at the point of her first showcase but Serena cried because it was the first time she had thrown all of her worth into the fray only for it to end in failure. Here was a girl who experienced real failure for the FIRST time.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on Pokemon battles because battling has always been the centerpiece of Pokemon in both anime and games. Serena' character has nothing to do with battling.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based comparing her to companions of previous generations. Serena is Serena and she has her own story to tell and hurdles to face. Perhaps a certain hurdle is more easily passed by Dawn and proves challenging for Serena? It doesn't matter. This is Serena's story and the emphasis is on how much more important it is for SERENA when she overcomes that hurdle. Evaluate a character based on her OWN merits not other's.

People make the mistake of evaluating Serena's worth based on her "feminine" qualities. Why is it wrong for a girl to be feminine? Why is it wrong for a girl to pursue a feminine goal? Using the same logic men should be looked down upon for pursuing football (American version). A girl can be feminine and strong in her own regard.

Serena's battle with Ash isn't about the outcome. It's about her stepping into Ash's world for a brief moment. It's about getting the chance to truly see him and communicate with him using his own language. It's about Serena obtaining yet another experience she would have never known had she never left home. It's about testing Serena's resolve about everything that she knew and finally putting away the aimless girl back home.

Serena is finally going to venture out on her own. Everything that she learned is about to be truly tested. Serena has to pursue her goal using her own motivations and her own drive.

Serena's journey is just barely starting.

i wish we could just close the thread because after ths statement theres nothing left o say.

Better then seeing "serena didnt struggle/work for anything" being spammed again and again
 
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