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October 20th: SM144 - The Greatest Z in Alola! Kapu-Kokeko VS Pikachu!!

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andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
That's because these are pretty much the only battles in SM to begin with. There are rarely any battles in this series. The only other ones I can remember right now is Ash vs James(Buttler)at the very beginning and Ash vs Dia.

XY wasn't just great battles either. Olivia really wasn't that great, but nor was Ash vs Ramos, or Grant, or Crasher Wake and Candice in DP. There are mediocre battles in every series.
Ash vs Hala and Ash vs Hapu were pretty great, and Ash vs Guzma and Ash vs Gladion are some of the best of the series.
Do you mean Ash vs Olympia from the XY series wasn't great or Ash vs Olivia from the Sun and Moon series wasn't great?
 
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Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Could we, idk, enjoy the battle without comparing it to XY like we do with every episode?
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
I knew Pikachu was gonna be the deciding factor in Ash's potential Champion crowning. Absolutely no doubt was ever in mind as I told every single one of you periodically throughout this matches speculation threads.
As for winning, that's a different story lol
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
I knew Pikachu was gonna be the deciding factor in Ash's potential Champion crowning. Absolutely no doubt was ever in mind as I told every single one of you periodically throughout this matches speculation threads.
As for winning, that's a different story lol
A lot of people have brought up the notion that Pikachu should be Ash’s final Pokèmon for important matches as it was the case for Drake & Brandon so I don’t know why you’re acting like you’re the only person who thought of this. But go off I guess lol
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
A lot of people have brought up the notion that Pikachu should be Ash’s final Pokèmon for important matches as it was the case for Drake & Brandon so I don’t know why you’re acting like you’re the only person who thought of this. But go off I guess lol
Show me the quotes, I'll gladly concede that I'm just "going off"... in the meantime, I have one that caught some flake from a couple users here
If Ash is destined to beat Kakui... Pikachu has to be the one to land the final blow. I get that sucks for Torrecat, but Pikachu is the series Mascot and Ash's main Pokemon.

If he's gonna lose to Kakui, than sure, Torrecat can have it's glory as the last Pokemon and the ultimate defeat at the same time then.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Show me the quotes, I'll gladly concede that I'm just "going off"... in the meantime, I have one that caught some flake from a couple users here
I’m not going to waste my time by going through this entire thread but I’m one person who thought the possibility of Pikachu being the final vs Koko wasn’t unlikely especially considering they’ve purposefully hid Kukui’s 6th.

Regardless, good for you for predicting a reasonably predictable outcome right
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
I’m not going to waste my time by going through this entire thread but I’m one person who thought the possibility of Pikachu being the final vs Koko wasn’t unlikely especially considering they’ve purposefully hid Kukui’s 6th.
A half hearted effort shouldn't exactly deserve praise, but if you're being honest here, I'll give you the round. Though just a heads up, if you actually checked out when I made that post, it was Sep. 14th, well before we even knew anything about Kakui's remaing team.

Regardless, good for you for predicting a reasonably predictable outcome right
I give you props for the sassy tone your taking, dare I say respect it?
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
A half hearted effort shouldn't exactly deserve praise, but if you're being honest here, I'll give you the round. Though just a heads up, if you actually checked out when I made that post, it was Sep. 14th, well before we even knew anything about Kakui's remaing team.


I give you props for the sassy tone your taking, dare I say respect it?
It wasn’t half hearted because I told you I was going through it so I definitely wasn’t clicking on it to check a date so I don’t really care but if you insist on giving it that much focus, be my guest.

You could still make a logical conclusion about Ash’s iconic Pokémon being a final for one of his most important milestones. Knowing Kukui’s team only gave more credit to such a conclusion.

You’ll give me props for my sarcastic comment and I’ll give you props on your unnecessary boasting over something that’s not unlikely. Next you’ll tell us that you predicted Ash will go to the next region with Pikachu like the fortune teller you are
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
It doesn't hold up upon repeated viewings. That's why I say "turn your brain off". If you're watching the battle more than once, you start to question what you're seeing and pay more attention to the dialogue, then the crippling flaws and shallow writing become much more obvious.

Clemont's line during the Noivern/Salamence battle was akin to "Salamence lured Noivern in so he could use Dragon Tail!" is so half-arsed an attempt at giving the battle some semblance of strategy, it's cringey. It doesn't stand out unless you watch it again.
If I'm watching Pokemon I already know the dialogue isn't gonna be Game of Thrones tier, a lot of time characters will state the obvious or justify flimsy strategies, this isn't a XY only problem, on top of the implication that people never rewatched the battle but you apparently.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
No? Basic commentary from the side characters stating the obvious during battles is such a basic staple of the anime

It's somewhat hard for me to take these comments seriously because it's like either you want a show to feel like a universe you are peeking into, but on the other hand the argument is what, you'd rather have the characters just be completely devoid of everything?

Because sometimes people overplay the "obvious" argument. Like yeah sure, we know Flame Charge boosts a Pokemon's speed up, because we've played the games. But in the context of the anime, would a random character who probably has never used flame charge know about this? And is it really that obvious. Or at the very least they don't live and breathe that specific bit of information.

Sure some of it could be horribly forced and the characters SHOULD know, but honestly I wouldn't be surprised since the writers are different, and may be on felt like clarifying for the sake of clarifying.

Like the whole Ash and the Pokedex thing, and how its been kind of a meme. You know ignoring the fact sometimes he says the Pokemon's name and THEN looks at the Pokedex.

I don't know personally I'm fine with what would be seen as "redundant" if at least the characters are doing something rather than what? Drooling mindlessly on screen? Although I'm sure that could be played for laughs in a parody of sorts.
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
It wasn’t half hearted because I told you I was going through it so I definitely wasn’t clicking on it to check a date so I don’t really care but if you insist on giving it that much focus, be my guest.
If your gonna call me out is all, that's kind of important to show me why. I'm positive I'm not the only one, however. That's kind of the difference here, I'm not the one taking this that seriously. I'm positive your gonna take this next line the wrong way, but the 8 years I've been here have been kind of a blur like that.
You could still make a logical conclusion about Ash’s iconic Pokémon being a final for one of his most important milestones. Knowing Kukui’s team only gave more credit to such a conclusion.
I'm beginning to feel your not a fan of mine...
You’ll give me props for my sarcastic comment and I’ll give you props on your unnecessary boasting over something that’s not unlikely. Next you’ll tell us that you predicted Ash will go to the next region with Pikachu like the fortune teller you are
Dang, you're actually laying into me here... I see...
d390434cb4f771344981522b971288a86ffaa3f1v2_hq.jpg
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
It's somewhat hard for me to take these comments seriously because it's like either you want a show to feel like a universe you are peeking into, but on the other hand the argument is what, you'd rather have the characters just be completely devoid of everything?
Again, no? When did I ever say this lol
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
If your gonna call me out is all, that's kind of important to show me why. I'm positive I'm not the only one, however. That's kind of the difference here, I'm not the one taking this that seriously. I'm positive your gonna take this next line the wrong way, but the 8 years I've been here have been kind of a blur like that.

I'm beginning to feel your not a fan of mine...

Dang, you're actually laying into me here... I see...
d390434cb4f771344981522b971288a86ffaa3f1v2_hq.jpg
Before I end this:
I genuinely have no ill will towards anyone here. Just think it’s weird to brag about a prediction being right of a likely outcome. It’s like you want there to be a problem when there isn’t. I’m far from serious over this: I thought it was funny but you do you.

Cool story bro. You sure showed me with that.
 
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Oh boy...These posts lol.

Like how every series devoted five or four minutes to character exposition about type matchups and move boost and explanations. Usually the only thing characters like Takeshi or Citron doing for most episodes? Did you watch the Shouta battle during the Kalos League?

Did you? As Epicocity pointed out, these moments were literally interplayed with the action and when they did fully cut back to Clemont or anyone else, it lasted maybe 10-15 seconds. Can you point to specific, official battles in XY where the camera was cut to where you felt it was long?



I remember padding pertaining to shots of Hau and Acerola (filler moments/characters) but beyond that battles throughout S&M have given consistent flow and dynamism usually breaking away to allow viewers to soak in the impact of a crazy scene. Like Kaki’s Z-Move which was intense enough to literally shake the entirety of Manalo Stadium and gave us introspective of Hoshi, Lusamine, Kukui and Lillie’s reactions to the affair. Or a worthwhile break like getting an amusing Suiren gag or the two boys giggling. Which I’ll take over a panshot of Citron/Takeshi giving up generic exposition we already know or some overplayed “cool” Satoshi frame with generic dialogue or another “~romantic~” shot of Serena muttering Satoshi’s name and looking worried or saying she’s worried which was heavily prevalent throughout the series. Especially during the gym battles most notably the final gym battle.

I see it a different way. Many of SM's battles feature exposition-dumping and unnecessary talking all throughout. Key example, Ash vs Nanu, where the battle included many, many mind-numbing stops and pauses.


Riddle me this? What was the strategy during Satoshi’s one and only full battle victory at the Kalos League? Wait. There was none. Aside from Pikachu vs. Gillgard with the wood shard there was no strategy. It was a straight up power fest through and through with little strategy. You’re confusing rapid fire nauseating animation and flash/hype for actual substance and strategy. Because there was none but it was flashy, pretty to look at and had fully evolved ‘mon and explosions so you saw it as a strategic battle of chess when it was just straight up brawling and back and forth attacking. Take off your rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia vision and look at the objective facts of what was shown in the episodes.

Nice revisionist history, Satoshi v. Kukui already succeeds by usage of Lugarugan’s Stone Edge (going back to a similar strategy Satoshi used with Waruvile at the 7th gym in BW!) and by utilizing Nyaheat’s fighting spirit/bell traits as a way to not only combat but take on the power of Blast Burn for a power-up to even the playing field. Which does harken back to DP’s usage of such a tactic with Manmoo’s Ice Shard or Hayashigame’s Energy Ball though obviously not a direct reference.

Attack chaining is strategy. Are you kidding? Brawling back and forth without those pauses includes things like responding to attacks in a quick, timely, and effective manner. It includes things like deciding when to use specific moves to counteract other moves in the best possible fashion. It includes things like knowing when to go on the defense and knowing when to press and attack. Brawling back in forth is more than just a " power fest. "

The idea that strategy has to fit this very narrow criteria that you're sprouting is hilarious in itself. What's even worse is that you're doing the exact same thing you accused the other person of doing.

Please take of your own hate-tinted glasses and look at the objective facts here.

So basically, “attack, attack, attack.”

Well let’s run a comparison between Satoshi’s most important full battle in XY (Shouta) and compare it Kukui since these character have narratives tied to Satoshi. Where was all this amazing strategics you praise? Where was it outside of aforementioned Pikachu v. ghost sword? There wasn’t any. You’re remember things better than they were. Given how Shouta was hyped as an intelligent trainer and you sing praises of XY!Satoshi being a chess master the penultimate battle between the two came down to power and flash. The ultimate fight between Mega Jukain and Satoshi-Gekkouga amounted to nothing more than a bunch of Naruto-tier speedy punches and flashy clash exchanges. It was exciting between it was shounen, flashy and edgy and cool but you can’t really sit here and call that strategy.

Never mind in terms of relationships Kukui as Satoshi’s surrogate father who he met in his past and inspired the entire league. The one who has helped Satoshi with several of his Pokemon. Even essentially giving him one and helping him get his footing in Alola completes blows the hero worship relationship between Shouta/Satoshi out of the water. What was their relationship aside from another buttkissing dynamic which we saw a trillion times already between Satoshi and the Kalos population?

Let's see...

- Uh maybe when Sawyer used Slaking to literally use Hawlucha's battling style against him?
- Maybe when Saywer used targeted Aqua Jet to literally follow and keep with Talonflame?
- Sawyer using ice beam to slow Talonflame down just a notch to take him down?
- Ash telling Pikachu to use the forest for cover
- After Clawitzer grabbed Pikachu by the tail and used water pulse, Ash and Pikachu use electro ball to counteract that
- Sawyer with Aeigslash destroying the forest that Pikachu used as cover
- Sawyer putting Pikachu and Ash in a tough spot with King's Shield, a move that lowered Pikachu's attack
- And of course, the absolute genius log strategy, both using the logs as a means for easy movement and as a way to counter King's Shield
- Use of Noivern's sense of smell to attack through smoke
- Saywer's use of Slurpuff's sense of smell to attack through smoke
- Use of targeted Frenzy Plant against both Pikachu and AG to cut their agility and push them back


You want to know the substance that you seem hellbent on blatantly ignoring to prove your point?

Maybe the fact that Sawyer beat Ash the last time they faced off. Maybe the fact, in the narrative Ash was the teacher and Sawyer was the trainee and when Ash lost to Sawyer, that really shook him up. Maybe the fact that Ash literally went through a crushing depression arc where he had to find himself to fully emerge at the peak of his powers, deeply connected to his Pokemon and determined to beat Sawyer and win the league

Maybe the whole scene where Ash and Sawyer were on an astral plane, where Sawyer talked about how he viewed Ash as an insurmountable obstacle and how he was always running in his footsteps. And when Ash talked about how he was scared, scared of Sawyer and scared of being surpassed and how thanks to Sawyer, he was able to rediscover himself.

If you're going to chastise people for revisionist history and ignoring substance, please don't be a blatant hypocrite

XY doesn't have the best battles. It has the best battle choreography by a longshot but the scripting was often stupid. The best battle in that series, the Ash-Greninja v. Mega Sceptile finale, was well scripted and well choreographed, but the very matchup which preceded it (Slurpuff v. Goodra) was awful.

The two aerial battles in the Kalos League - Noivern v. Salamence and Talonflame v. Unfezant - exemplify the best and worst of XY. The scripting was basically:

-both Pokemon zoom around
-they spam moves
-big explosion
-double KO

But the animation, dynamic camera and visual distinction between the moves made it a spectacle to watch. You just needed to turn your brain off.

Great way to ignore absolutely all the substance in said battles. The script-writing was the best of the series

It doesn't hold up upon repeated viewings. That's why I say "turn your brain off". If you're watching the battle more than once, you start to question what you're seeing and pay more attention to the dialogue, then the crippling flaws and shallow writing become much more obvious.

Clemont's line during the Noivern/Salamence battle was akin to "Salamence lured Noivern in so he could use Dragon Tail!" is so half-arsed an attempt at giving the battle some semblance of strategy, it's cringey. It doesn't stand out unless you watch it again.

Yeah, I just watched it, and I have no idea what you're talking about. The battles are some of the best written in the anime.
 
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Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
My expectation was already extremely low for this battle, so seeing it become a 4 parter let alone 3 is a great thing. Not to mention the battle itself is honestly not too shabby. Sure pacing is as problematic as ever, but I'm quite digging what I am seeing. This obviously won't change how I feel about this series as a whole, but it's awesome to end on a good note.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
My expectation was already extremely low for this battle, so seeing it become a 4 parter let alone 3 is a great thing. Not to mention the battle itself is honestly not too shabby. Sure pacing is as problematic as ever, but I'm quite digging what I am seeing. This obviously won't change how I feel about this series as a whole, but it's awesome to end on a good note.

I have a feeling pacing is going to be a problem, in the first episode the match sequence was slow and they were focusing more on people's reaction, ash vs paul 3 parter had perfect pacing going in that match desptie showing reactions from most characters, but battles in this series hve been very slow and somewhat felt boring and lacking.
 

Bortgreen

Captain Pikachu is EPIC
I hope Pikachu uses 10 million Volt vs Tapu Koko. The summary implies we're getting a Gigavolt Havoc clash, but it would be a waste of opportunity
 
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