October 21st: PM2019 129 - The Finals I: Torrent

[Panky..]

I mean they could’ve had different plans back then, but decided to wrap things up like this once they realized they’re running out of time? Time will tell really.

Leon using Eternatus would be a lose lose situation. If he wins 6-5, then he’d have won by using a legendary Pokémon that was gifted to him the day before the finals, which would basically be another Tobias situation in that Ash was robbed of a victory due to a legendary DEM.

If he loses 6-5 despite using Eternatus, people would rightly question his strength. Ash barely won against Cynthia after all, so him winning against a Rillaboom that’s capable of sweeping Diantha, Eternatus AND Leonzard with the same team would be crazy even for JN standards.

Unlike in SM, where Pikachu had a rivalry with Tapu Koko (and where Ash/Pikachu really had no other rivals on their level), there is no reason why Eternatus should be used.

…not to mention that Leon’s biggest regret in the games and the anime was losing to Eternatus. Him using a gifted Eternatus just doesn’t suit his character.

Even without Eternatus, it's already a lose-lose situation from a narrative standpoint regardless of Ash winning/tying or losing. They've wrote themselves in a corner with some of the most amount of wasted potential and non-organic decisions.

 

[Eevee903]

The episodes they have interacted:
JN013
JN041
JN042
JN043
JN044
JN045
JN082
JN100
JN109
JN127

 

[AJ97]

If he loses 6-5 despite using Eternatus, people would rightly question his strength. Ash barely won against Cynthia after all, so him winning against a Rillaboom that’s capable of sweeping Diantha, Eternatus AND Leonzard with the same team would be crazy even for JN standards.

I actually disagree regarding the "Ash barely beat Cynthia" statement.
One of the reason the match was so close was because of the Destiny Bond on Pikachu. Now while this is a valid move; it's not something that one can use repeatedly.

Had Ash and Pikachu known about the destiny bond beforehand; Pikachu wouldn't have fallen against Spiritomb. Cynthia in turn would have been in far more trouble if Ash had both Pikachu and Lucario left in the end.
Taking this into consideration; I'd say Ash is one gear above Cynthia.
As for the Rilaboom point; I don't think Diantha's and Alain's performances really better.

Leon being much superior to Alain and Diantha doesn't mean he would've won in a similar fashion against Cynthia and Steven because at least narratively; the writers seemed to suggest that they were the closest to Leon in Strength (Based on the rankings); and having the MC overcome these 2 before the main challenge.

Unlike in SM, where Pikachu had a rivalry with Tapu Koko (and where Ash/Pikachu really had no other rivals on their level), there is no reason why Eternatus should be used.

…not to mention that Leon’s biggest regret in the games and the anime was losing to Eternatus. Him using a gifted Eternatus just doesn’t suit his character.

All of these are valid points but why exactly was Leon handed Eternatus or specifically asked to train Eternatus (And this even right before the match against Ash). Why didn't they do it before the Master Class Tournament or before the Semi-Finals or literally at any other time and why does the episode literally end with Leon taking ownership of Eternatus? Don't you think this seems far too convenient?

As for your second point; there's a counter argument. Look at Leon's Opponent. It is very much Ash's character to welcome any difficult Challenge he possibly can. He's the same person who chose to Battle an Articuno over a Ryhorn.
Ash would welcome the challenge and Leon also know this because he too would welcome the challenge and the two of them share a similar personality.

 

[Jeal]

Lol! Just imagine: Ash becomes the world's strongest trainer after defeating a legendary on TV. So every place he shows up, everyone get out of the way in fear, whispering at each other. What a badass. So everyone refuses to battle him because they know that just the sight and aura of his powerful pokémon will make their pokémon faint. They run away without looking back. It turns out the games lied! You CAN refuse a challenge to a battle after all, if your pants get wet.

 

[GLTSRY]

I actually disagree regarding the "Ash barely beat Cynthia" statement.
One of the reason the match was so close was because of the Destiny Bond on Pikachu. Now while this is a valid move; it's not something that one can use repeatedly.

Had Ash and Pikachu known about the destiny bond beforehand; Pikachu wouldn't have fallen against Spiritomb. Cynthia in turn would have been in far more trouble if Ash had both Pikachu and Lucario left in the end.

I mean, the same can be said for any of Ash’s victories too. If Cynthia knew about Brutal Swing, she would have changed Stealth Rock to another move. Steven had no knowledge of 10 MV allowing Pikachu to control the lightning, and Raihan just waiting for G-Max Aura Sphere to charge up was PIS.

Besides, I don’t see Pikachu doing much better than Sirfetch’d or Lucario in that battle, and even with Dracovish it’s debatable as he has more stamina than Pikachu. Don’t think the battle would’ve played out much differently if Pikachu survived against Spiritomb.

All of these are valid points but why exactly was Leon handed Eternatus or specifically asked to train Eternatus (And this even right before the match against Ash). Why didn't they do it before the Master Class Tournament or before the Semi-Finals or literally at any other time and why does the episode literally end with Leon taking ownership of Eternatus? Don't you think this seems far too convenient?

The timing seems strange, but on the other side, they really had no time slot left in the periods you mentioned. Up until the tournament started we had one Ultra Class battle after another, the only breaks being other Ash-centric episodes (eg. the Alola episodes or Paul) or episodes that really drove PM forward. Ever since the Master Tournament started we only got tournament episodes or recaps. Yesterday was the first episode since the beginning of the tournament in mid-June that we got an actual episode that is not a tournament episode (besides the Chloe “conclusion”). So this actually was the earliest they could’ve done it. Besides, as mentioned earlier, maybe they had other plans for Eternatus and PM as a whole but had to cancel it on short notice. The whole production seems to be a mess right now, and yesterday’s episode really felt like an essay submitted in the last-minute.

As for your second point; there's a counter argument. Look at Leon's Opponent. It is very much Ash's character to welcome any difficult Challenge he possibly can. He's the same person who chose to Battle an Articuno over a Ryhorn.
Ash would welcome the challenge and Leon also know this because he too would welcome the challenge and the two of them share a similar personality.

Not entirely true imo. He was shocked when Tobias sent out Latios and visibly frustrated after it took down Swellow.

Ash’s goal for the past three years was to battle Leon. If he’d just wanted to battle strong legendaries he’d have joined Project Mew. Likewise, Leon wants someone to push him and his team.

If Eternatus joined him immediately after the Darkest Day arc concluded, then I could see him using it. But using a Pokémon that just a day ago became yours doesn’t feel right.

Besides, we don’t know how calm Eternatus is right now. Sure, he was chill with 5 people he already knew, but using it in a battle in a packed stadium is quite risky.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Ash is definitely not a step above Cynthia. Battle was absurdly close and that's not just because of Dbond.

I will say though that Leon has battled two lower trainers in the M8, objectively. Ash had a crazy hard path. We don't have much data on Cynthia vs. other champions and it's possible that she's a cut above Diantha etc. I certainly think her win over Iris was quite comfortable without being a thrashing.

 

[Trillion]

i'm pretty sure the people in the stands would run in fear upon seeing eternatus due to the destruction it caused. i don't think leon would just casually throw it out

 

[MetaMantis]

The episodes they have interacted:
JN013
JN041
JN042
JN043
JN044
JN045
JN082
JN100
JN109
JN127

Not 41. 41 was a filler. Leon wasn't in episode 41.

 

[Otto's]

We don't have much data on Cynthia vs. other champions and it's possible that she's a cut above Diantha etc.

Well, Diantha did believed that Cynthia would be the one that would finally break Leon's streak after being swept, so there's that.

 

[sutellakiara]

I actually disagree regarding the "Ash barely beat Cynthia" statement.
One of the reason the match was so close was because of the Destiny Bond on Pikachu. Now while this is a valid move; it's not something that one can use repeatedly.

Had Ash and Pikachu known about the destiny bond beforehand; Pikachu wouldn't have fallen against Spiritomb. Cynthia in turn would have been in far more trouble if Ash had both Pikachu and Lucario left in the end.
Taking this into consideration; I'd say Ash is one gear above Cynthia.

And you seriously think Cynthia won't be able to adapt to Ash? An a million times better and harder than him? Unless, of course, he goes an channels DP Ash and actually uses his head instead of depending on unga bunga go through the opponent moves just because five times in the same match.

 

[Espeonite]

My theory is that during the battle between ash and leona, eternatus losses control and dynamax blast the whole current poke world and then everything perishes and then we start our new adventure in paldea with an actual competent trainer as the new protagonist.

 

[MunchMunch]

So... What if Goh isn't actually leaving for Project Mew but to go and meet up with Ash's friends so they can surprise him by cheering him on against Leon?

 

[Dragneelo]

Even without Eternatus, it's already a lose-lose situation from a narrative standpoint regardless of Ash winning/tying or losing. They've wrote themselves in a corner with some of the most amount of wasted potential and non-organic decisions.

explain

 

[janejane6178]

So... What if Goh isn't actually leaving for Project Mew but to go and meet up with Ash's friends so they can surprise him by cheering him on against Leon?

He is not that thoughtful and caring to do that

 

[DuskAstral]

Hopefully the mystery Pokémon from the episode is Quaxly.
It would be an interesting promotion for SV.

 

[AJ97]

And you seriously think Cynthia won't be able to adapt to Ash? An a million times better and harder than him? Unless, of course, he goes an channels DP Ash and actually uses his head instead of depending on unga bunga go through the opponent moves just because five times in the same match.

The whole point of Ash's battle style is that one can't really adapt to his style or go in fully prepared to face him.

We need to stop putting Cynthia on a pedestal over and over. Yes, she was one of the strongest trainers in the franchise and she still is. Pre-Journey's she was light years above Ash however now, they decided to write Ash to be better. That's simply a fact.

You're making it seem like Ash's win over Cynthia was dumb luck or like one of his Kanto Badges where he was handed the win for being a Good Samaritan.

Watch the match again. Yes Cynthia started strong with the headstart. However, from the second Pikachu was on the field; Ash was the one who mostly dominated.

> Cynthia tries using Gastrodon to nullify Pikachu's attacks -> It failed.
> Cynthia tries using Spiritomb again (It Fails) -> So she has no choice but to rely on a Destiny Bond Trap.
> Cynthia sets up (Stealth Rocks)
> Cynthia tries switching things up with Roserade and also gets the poison on Dracovish (It Fails)
> Cynthia tried finishing off Dracovish with Milotic like she did against Iris (However, the already weakened Dracovish that took hits from Garchomp, Roserade and was poisoned' was still able to knock out Milotic)
> Ash clears out the Stealth Rock rendering it useless and also takes out Milotic.
> Cynthia sends Garchomp out likely in hopes of taking out Sirfetch'd easily and have both Garchomp and Togekiss in Good health for Lucario. However, Garchomp ends up taking far more damage than she wanted.
> Cynthia tries to Max Airstream + Speed Flinch hacks with Togekiss; however it ended up failing.
> Cynthia tried to use G-Max to wear out Lucario and have it essentially fight 2 consecutively powerful pokemon instead of 1 (Also probably in hopes of trying to be unpredictable to surprise Ash) -> It still fails.

 

[sutellakiara]

they decided to write Ash to be better. That's simply a fact.

>PM Ash
>A better written Ash
lol
lmao

You're making it seem like Ash's win over Cynthia was dumb luck or like one of his Kanto Badges where he was handed the win for being a Good Samaritan.

I never said that. Don't be putting words on my mouth.
If anything you're the one acting like that because Ash beat Cynthia once with Lucario left with 1HP he's now the one light years ahead of her.

Or, you know, I'll say it now. Yes, he was handed over the win through the power of convenient and bad writing.

> Cynthia tries using Gastrodon to nullify Pikachu's attacks -> It failed.

Fair.

> Cynthia tries using Spiritomb again (It Fails) -> So she has no choice but to rely on a Destiny Bond Trap.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Destiny Bond was a desperate last measure and not something she clearly was planning and counting on? lol

And sure, the SR removal was one of "those moments." Too bad it was 3/4 into the match when the only two remaining Pokemon resist it and only even hit one of them and it felt more like "wooooow look at Ash crazy strats so imaginative shoehorned for the sake of it" than something actually organically weaved and that actually affected the in a meaningful way battle. Ash rendered the SR useless? They were already useless by how badly they were used.

Dracovish? Sirfetch? The unga bunga I mentioned. It's specially egregious with the abomination since in all its previous matches it went down quickly, not without doing big damage mind you, but now suddenly and oh so very conveniently it can tank a million hits.

Realize from your own post that the only real "battle style is that one can't really adapt to his style or go in fully prepared to face him." that truly did matter and truly did happen were the moments with the rat. Everything after the rat went down was just hit harder and bigger push through to the attacks and pain to still hit unga bunga more.

And, you know, I'll be pedantic so I'll also use one favorite argument of the people who love to defend Leon. Just like how Leon "got stronger from the motivation he got from fighting Eternatus" then so too now will Cynthia become stronger now that her passion for battling got reignited from battling Ash. Guess it's not as simple as Ash beat Cynthia once with 1 HP left now Cynthia is unable to even touch him ever again and will lose to him yes or yes no matter what forever like you're pretending it is!

 

[Broseph08]

I think he might have Eternatus but he won't use it. My current guess is that Ash takes down 4 of Leon's Pokemon while Leon has taken down 5. It comes down to Pikachu vs. Charizard and ends in a double knockout. Ash gets the satisfaction of taking him farther than anyone and taking down his GameShark Charizard while still not being enough to be world champion

 

[Blood Red]

Goh comes back with his caught Mew and lends it to Ash to fight Eternatus

UnovaMaster casually turning Goh into the Pokémon anime's Legendary/Mythical rental hub, you love to see it

 

[Ragnarok4]

Steven had no knowledge of 10 MV allowing Pikachu to control the lightning,

You are absolutely right here, AJ97's point is very questionable because applying that logic, Steven would have easily dodged all 6 lightning strikes and won.