October 22nd: PM2019 084 - The Lucarionite! Adventure on Mega Island!!

[Morax]

my fujo radar is beeping.

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

You can remove it, and absolute nothing change. This is why it doesn't have a narrative purpose, unlike other departures like Charizard or Gliscor, or even with human characters like May or Dawn.

Lmao.

And what exactly ‘changed’ with those characters? Or is this just you saying it’s only bad because greninja hasn’t come back to show ‘changes’ again, by some weird logic.

You know reading this makes me sad coz it just reminds me of the wasted potential. It had its part to play in the coming conflict and did nothing noteworthy, (no marking chespie with a shuriken isn't doing anything noteworthy), lost its climatic narrative battle and while the concept for its release may be good, that vine stuff is such bs and not at all good payoff for Olympia's prophecy or the ninja village prophecy, let alone the ninja village stuff not even making sense

Yeah no, i don’t agree at all. For one, finding where the core was is what allowed them to fight in the first place. It was the key role both to save chespie and stop the thing. It was also the one leading the charge and opened the path for alain. Then i don’t think the fight with alain was it’s climatic narrative, because like i said the continuous theme was that it was a power to help others and not power for the sake of glory, winning would’ve just been a bonus. Which is what it did by stopping the megalith and then protecting the region from the aftermath, an even grander duty than the ninja hero who only protected the village. It all tied up nicely imo.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Yeah no, i don’t agree at all. For one, finding where the core was is what allowed them to fight in the first place. It was the key role both to save chespie and stop the thing. It was also the one leading the charge and opened the path for alain. Then i don’t think the fight with alain was it’s climatic narrative, because like i said the continuous theme was that it was a power to help others and not power for the sake of glory, winning would’ve just been a bonus. Which is what it did by stopping the megalith and then protecting the region from the aftermath, an even grander duty than the ninja hero who only protected the village. It all tied up nicely imo.

If you think just marking the core was enough of a catharsis for his prophesised and built up impact, then all the power to you. For me Ash greninja was to Ash what Mega Metagross was to Steven and Mega Gardevoir was to Diantha and so on, having the same impact as them instead of a concrete role that was built up. Marking Chespie isnt at all satisfying to me for what was built up. It did no great a job of stopping the megalith then the other people's aces for my perspective. The league was still a BIG part of the narrative which BW's leadup to XY and XY in its first 2 seasons built up heavily as well. One of the major reasons I dont like XYZ as much as the other 2 XY seasons is because how thats put in the backburner. Beating Alain was still a pivotal moment and a representation of Ash and Greninja's dream and passions. It would be a nice crux in its getting stronger arc like the other aces received.
Again, I dont have a problem with the concept of what youre saying, but for me the way they poorly handled the league and waved it away, its non relevant role in the Team Flare arc as in it didnt have a major catharsis for me to buy the buildup of it having a greater cause, and its aftermath which just....the whole vines thing is dumb to me. The execution of it all makes me really dislike how Greninja's character arc ended up as and was wholly unsatisfying

 

[RafaSceptile]

Lmao.

And what exactly ‘changed’ with those characters? Or is this just you saying it’s only bad because greninja hasn’t come back to show ‘changes’ again, by some weird logic.




Yeah no, i don’t agree at all. For one, finding where the core was is what allowed them to fight in the first place. It was the key role both to save chespie and stop the thing. It was also the one leading the charge and opened the path for alain. Then i don’t think the fight with alain was it’s climatic narrative, because like i said the continuous theme was that it was a power to help others and not power for the sake of glory, winning would’ve just been a bonus. Which is what it did by stopping the megalith and then protecting the region from the aftermath, an even grander duty than the ninja hero who only protected the village. It all tied up nicely imo.

Charizard trained enough to become stronger, which was showed plenty of times after his departure like in the Johto League and against Articuno. Same with Gliscor, from literally the worst Ash's Pokémon with the worst win ratio to the Pokémon that beated Paul's Drapion, which was still a very big feat.

It is not weird logic, but your decisions should have some weight into the story, and Greninja's departure was so last minute that it has as much weight as being sent to Oak, almost nothing.

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

If you think just marking the core was enough of a catharsis for his prophesised and built up impact, then all the power to you. For me Ash greninja was to Ash what Mega Metagross was to Steven and Mega Gardevoir was to Diantha and so on, having the same impact as them instead of a concrete role that was built up. Marking Chespie isnt at all satisfying to me for what was built up. It did no great a job of stopping the megalith then the other people's aces for my perspective. The league was still a BIG part of the narrative which BW's leadup to XY and XY in its first 2 seasons built up heavily as well. One of the major reasons I dont like XYZ as much as the other 2 XY seasons is because how thats put in the backburner. Beating Alain was still a pivotal moment and a representation of Ash and Greninja's dream and passions. It would be a nice crux in its getting stronger arc like the other aces received.
Again, I dont have a problem with the concept of what youre saying, but for me the way they poorly handled the league and waved it away, its non relevant role in the Team Flare arc as in it didnt have a major catharsis for me to buy the buildup of it having a greater cause, and its aftermath which just....the whole vines thing is dumb to me. The execution of it all makes me really dislike how Greninja's character arc ended up as and was wholly unsatisfying

The way i see it, the climax would always belong to zygarde, since even olympia’s vision was mostly green flashes. Greninja’s role was to allow the others to fight together with the goal of rescuing chespie. Without his role, they would’ve desperately fight to destroy it even if it meant killing chespie, and with that i’m not sure it would’ve convinced zygarde to fight like it did. So i still think their power was the key to get the best ending.

The league for me was consistent with what they learned in the forest when they mastered the bond, so they were satisfied even if they didn’t win. Then at the end he becomes the literal guardian of the region from the disaster that was brought up by lysandre. For me the themes were built up and followed through, and i don’t care that greninja didn’t throw a giant spirit shuriken that was the culmination of the hopes and dream of everyone in kalos. But sure, i won’t try to change your mind.

Charizard trained enough to become stronger, which was showed plenty of times after his departure like in the Johto League and against Articuno. Same with Gliscor, from literally the worst Ash's Pokémon with the worst win ratio to the Pokémon that beated Paul's Drapion, which was still a very big feat.

It is not weird logic, but your decisions should have some weight into the story, and Greninja's departure was so last minute that it has as much weight as being sent to Oak, almost nothing.

So yeah just ‘changes’ and ‘results’ that they wrote in when they brought back. You know, things that could still be accomplished even if they stayed with ash, because they could just have them train with him and get stronger like literally all of his other mons. Sounds as much a random excuse as anything else. Hell, journeys even offers getting stronger off screen without ‘leaving’ the cast now. So no, i don’t see any weight on those and any effect that can’t be be achieved if them leaving was removed.

You say greninja was last minute, when it’s role as a guardian was built up like i’ve previously said, while everything about these characters leaving only came from the episode and wasn’t built up. Like come on, you brought up dawn who just got an offer for bunneary last minute and just decided ‘welp, guess i’m leaving’.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

The way i see it, the climax would always belong to zygarde, since even olympia’s vision was mostly green flashes. Greninja’s role was to allow the others to fight together with the goal of rescuing chespie. Without his role, they would’ve desperately fight to destroy it even if it meant killing chespie, and with that i’m not sure it would’ve convinced zygarde to fight like it did. So i still think their power was the key to get the best ending.

The league for me was consistent with what they learned in the forest when they mastered the bond, so they were satisfied even if they didn’t win. Then at the end he becomes the literal guardian of the region from the disaster that was brought up by lysandre. For me the themes were built up and followed through, and i don’t care that greninja didn’t throw a giant spirit shuriken that was the culmination of the hopes and dream of everyone in kalos. But sure, i won’t try to change your mind.

Well its best to agree to disagree then
I really like the concepts of what youre saying, there was a good story in there but its execution just doesnt make me feel the same way at all, while I love the TF arc still Greninja's arc as a whole remains unsatisfying and unfulfilled in my perspective.

 

[ChampioN One]

I guess we have nothing to discuss unless someone brings up XYZ or Ash Greninja or anything related to Kalos in general.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I guess we have nothing to discuss unless someone brings up XYZ or Ash Greninja or anything related to Kalos in general.

I mean....it is an episode about Mega evolution ;v

 

[RafaSceptile]

The way i see it, the climax would always belong to zygarde, since even olympia’s vision was mostly green flashes. Greninja’s role was to allow the others to fight together with the goal of rescuing chespie. Without his role, they would’ve desperately fight to destroy it even if it meant killing chespie, and with that i’m not sure it would’ve convinced zygarde to fight like it did. So i still think their power was the key to get the best ending.

The league for me was consistent with what they learned in the forest when they mastered the bond, so they were satisfied even if they didn’t win. Then at the end he becomes the literal guardian of the region from the disaster that was brought up by lysandre. For me the themes were built up and followed through, and i don’t care that greninja didn’t throw a giant spirit shuriken that was the culmination of the hopes and dream of everyone in kalos. But sure, i won’t try to change your mind.

So yeah just ‘changes’ and ‘results’ that they wrote in when they brought back. You know, things that could still be accomplished even if they stayed with ash, because they could just have them train with him and get stronger like literally all of his other mons. Sounds as much a random excuse as anything else. Hell, journeys even offers getting stronger off screen without ‘leaving’ the cast now. So no, i don’t see any weight on those and any effect that can’t be be achieved if them leaving was removed.

You say greninja was last minute, when it’s role as a guardian was built up like i’ve previously said, while everything about these characters leaving only came from the episode and wasn’t built up. Like come on, you brought up dawn who just got an offer for bunneary last minute and just decided ‘welp, guess i’m leaving’.

I mean Dawn was progression as a Coordinator was lately addressed into BW, and also mentioned again into Journeys. The suddenly decision was also last minute but at least it had some weight into the narrative of Dawn's history. This was also later addressed into DPS01 when she decides to go to Hoenn.

I guess we have nothing to discuss unless someone brings up XYZ or Ash Greninja or anything related to Kalos in general.

Tbf not like we have that many info to speculate, especially with so many weeks without any episode info. (24th without episode, Octuber 1st and 15th without info). This timeslot for Pokémon is truly cursed.

 

[Master Pikachu 11]

Both already """returned""" in Journeys
*cries in Sceptile*

I fully believe that we will see Ash’s Sceptile again, we already saw a flashback of Torterra so expect it to also make an appearance again as well as I highly doubt this will be the last time they visit Professor Oak.

 

[Ragnarok4]

great, not only on twitter, also here they are talking bad about Greninja when he already left 5 years ago, what a bad time to be a fan of XY, but meh, I think I can deal with that

 

[Decidueye23]

great, not only on twitter, also here they are talking bad about Greninja when he already left 5 years ago, what a bad time to be a fan of XY, but meh, I think I can deal with that

Dont let others opinion bother you. If its any comsolation, i love XY and Greninja. I think it's one of Ash's best pokemon. No questions there.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Now, that I'm almost completely sure that Ash won't use reserves in the PWC, I just hope that at least the legendary Charizard has his moment.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Dont let others opinion bother you. If its any comsolation, i love XY and Greninja. I think it's one of Ash's best pokemon. No questions there.

Yes, and I know many others too, XY will always be my favorite series, I'm used to criticism anyway : )

 

[RafaSceptile]

what a bad time to be a fan of XY

The same can be said of all the post-DP series fans, because all of those series have criticism daily about their respective flaws. The only series with somehow "free" of daily criticism are OS-DP, which is why also people consider them as the most consistent part of the Pokémon anime.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

The same can be said of all the post-DP series fans, because all of those series have criticism daily about their respective flaws. The only series with somehow "free" of daily criticism are OS-DP, which is why also people consider them as the most consistent part of the Pokémon anime.

In my own opinion EVERY SERIES from OS to DP to XY to SM to JN has flaws. But flaws are a personal matter to everyone, it is subjective. However many ppl (including myself) state it as an objective fact and not a subjective opinion.

 

[Ignition]

Actually I remember Talonflame to have some decent personality as Fletchinder-Fletchling, but it was lost when it evolved.

Yeah that’s why I said most. Taillow/Swellow were pretty gutsy (lol). Staravia had that moment where it was disappointed it was the only Pokémon that couldn’t battle against Roark & where it was flirting with a TRio bot. Fletchling was depicted as mischievous but a hardworker and the latter was especially emphasized when it evolved into Fletchinder. But, for the most part, these Pokémon were relegated to just “fly and look for Team Rocket”. A lot of Ash and friends’ Pokémon feel toned down when they evolve and something that recent series are mostly good at preventing.

 

[RafaSceptile]

In my own opinion EVERY SERIES from OS to DP to XY to SM to JN has flaws. But flaws are a personal matter to everyone, it is subjective. However many ppl (including myself) state it as an objective fact and not a subjective opinion.

I never said OS-DP are flawless, but the amount of complains from those serious are considerably smaller than the complains from the BW-JN series. You only need to read this forum to notice it most of the time.

Yeah that’s why I said most. Taillow/Swellow were pretty gutsy (lol). Staravia had that moment where it was disappointed it was the only Pokémon that couldn’t battle against Roark & where it was flirting with a TRio bot. Fletchling was depicted as mischievous but a hardworker and the latter was especially emphasized when it evolved into Fletchinder. But, for the most part, these Pokémon were relegated to just “fly and look for Team Rocket”. A lot of Ash and friends’ Pokémon feel toned down when they evolve and something that recent series are mostly good at preventing.

Yeah that's something I like since XY, as Pokémon like Noivern, Goodra, Lycanroc, Melmetal, Naganadel and Sirfetch'd retained a fun personality after fully evolving. I would say Incineroar but his onscreen time is like less than 5 minutes lol.

 

[Ignition]

Yeah that's something I like since XY, as Pokémon like Noivern, Goodra, Lycanroc, Melmetal, Naganadel and Sirfetch'd retained a fun personality after fully evolving. I would say Incineroar but his onscreen time is like less than 5 minutes lol.

All of those are some of my favorites in the entire series. Incineroar makes me disappointed because it happened so late but at least Litten/Torracat had some of the best development to make up for it. Hopefully it gets a chance to battle sooner than later

 

[Deleted member 384931]

I never said OS-DP are flawless, but the amount of complains from those serious are considerably smaller than the complains from the BW-JN series. You only need to read this forum to notice it most of the time.

My apologies. The hate BW-JN gets is annoying sometimes.