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Official 6th Generation Competitive Metagame Discussion

I know, it really depends on the situation, but that can apply to everything else though. Galvantula is fast, but there are many other things that are faster that can give it trouble, and it's also very frail. Priority moves, rocks, and especially Talonflame/Aerodactyl if they don't switch into thunder. Infestation has its flaws that it can't trap everything; ghost types and stuff with baton pass/u turn/volt-switch/etc. If they lack any of those and even switch into it, it can give you the upper hand in bringing a proper counter in which they can't switch out to avoid. Infestation just has the ability to hit almost everything compared to like fire spin and whirlpool.

This. Infestation and non-SW Galvantula are gimmicky at best.

I've been really loving a Noivern/Megawile core lately. This replay shows what they can do late-game even up against top-tier threats. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-60237753
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
The only unique thing about Goodra is Gooey. It's possible Hydration sets are outclassed by Vaporeon and it's weaker than Vaporeon when it comes to taking a physical hit. As far as being a bulky dragon we all know latias outclasses it. It has better physical bulk and it has access to Calm Mind and Roost. Plus it has a secondary STAB it can use to hit most fairies for nuetral damage while Goodra does not. The only advantage Goodra has over latias is that it can learn poison attacks to hit most fairies for SE damage. As of now Goodra's best set is probably Gooey w/ Assault vest set. With all this being said Goodra is most definitely UU material but not OU.
 

T-Bolt

Electrifying.
The only unique thing about Goodra is Gooey. It's possible Hydration sets are outclassed by Vaporeon and it's weaker than Vaporeon when it comes to taking a physical hit. As far as being a bulky dragon we all know latias outclasses it. It has better physical bulk and it has access to Calm Mind and Roost. Plus it has a secondary STAB it can use to hit most fairies for nuetral damage while Goodra does not. The only advantage Goodra has over latias is that it can learn poison attacks to hit most fairies for SE damage. As of now Goodra's best set is probably Gooey w/ Assault vest set. With all this being said Goodra is most definitely UU material but not OU.

That is an incredibly flawed analysis of Goodra.

Firstly, Goodra isn't outclassed by Vaporeon on Hydration sets. Vaporeon and Politoed share mono-water typing, while Goodra resists Politoed's weaknesses, allowing it to come in on a threat to Politoed and use Rest to recover HP. With rain being nerfed, Vapreon on the other hand is going to find it hard to switch in and recover with rest. Plus, Goodra can run an offensive hydration set with a life orb as well, using Rest to recover damage, Vaporeon cannot.

Latias does not outclass Goodra. Goodra isn't walled by steels with access to Fire Blast and Flamethrower, Latias has to use a pitiful base 60 hidden power fire to hope to deal damage. Goodra can beat Tyranitar with Power whip, Latias can't do much to it. Goodra also has more special bulk than Latias, and can run assault vest sets to further complement that. Latias can't due to it's need to recover and large number of weaknesses.

Finally, Gooey's best use is probably on RestTalk sets, and you wouldn't be able to rest with an assault vest. (that rhymes lol)
 
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MedievalMovies

Absolute Power
I'm surprised no one's been talking about Heliolisk. He could very well be a vital asset in Rain, Sandstorm and Sun teams with his abilities. His stats look kinda poor on paper but his abilities are really what define him. Dry Skin and Solar Power are quite good IMO and Sand Veil isn't piss-poor either.
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
That is an incredibly flawed analysis of Goodra.

Firstly, Goodra isn't outclassed by Vaporeon on Hydration sets. Vaporeon and Politoed share mono-water typing, while Goodra resists Politoed's weaknesses, allowing it to come in on a threat to Politoed and use Rest to recover HP. With rain being nerfed, Vapreon on the other hand is going to find it hard to switch in and recover with rest. Plus, Goodra can run an offensive hydration set with a life orb as well, using Rest to recover damage, Vaporeon cannot.

Latias does not outclass Goodra. Goodra isn't walled by steels with access to Fire Blast and Flamethrower, Latias has to use a pitiful base 60 hidden power fire to hope to deal damage. Goodra can beat Tyranitar with Power whip, Latias can't do much to it. Goodra also has more special bulk than Latias, and can run assault vest sets to further complement that. Latias can't due to it's need to recover and large number of weaknesses.

Finally, Gooey's best use is probably on RestTalk sets, and you wouldn't be able to rest with an assault vest. (that rhymes lol)

If Goodra uses a RestTalk set then that limits you to 2 moves thus less coverage and is easier to predict once you reveql both of your moves. And as far as we know Goodra lacks 3 moves that Vaporeon has: Wish, Baton Pass, Aqua Ring. Vaporeon has 3 different methods of healing while Goodra has 1 and Vaporeon doesn't even need rain or SleepTalk while Goodra needs one or the other for healing. Goodra may have more offensive power than Vaporeon but Vaporeon can still take physical hits better than Goodra. (Not including se moves) and let's not forget Vaporeon has a base 110 sp.atk so Goodra isn't that much stronger than Vaporeon as far as sp.atk but Goodra can run mixed sets so i do give it that and the fact that it resists politoed's weaknesses. So Goodra may not be out classed by Vaporeon but Vaporeon is still better than Goodra as far as healing methods out of rain.

Goodra may have those advantages but latias can switch in on fighting moves better than Goodra can :u

Ik this isn't confirmed but IF Mega-Lati@s are real then do any of you think their roles would change drastically?
 
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McDanger

Well-Known Member
Goodra isn't outclassed by vaporeon at all, it has more defense, more special defense, and a far wider movepool. Honestly the 2 play different roles, goodra functions like latias and tyranitar in BW as an offensive tank, and goodra is arguable superior to latias as while it can't switch into fightings as well, it can switch into everything else better as it has more hps, def, and special def while having more attack so its not walled by threats like heatran and jirachi, the latter not common anymore. People need to take in consideration weather is hard to do now, you can just slap a politoed on a team with vaporeon/goodra and say it can use rest hydration as the switch is obvious and it can get KOed on the switch in, plus rain is now the most inferior of the weathers having one inducer with sub par stats.

@imposter: that guy played like garbage so it doesnt really show how good the core is.
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
Wait, mcdanger didn't you call goodra crap not long ago and now you're saying it's good? Or were talking about as a wall it's crap and it's good as a tank?
 
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McDanger

Well-Known Member
i`m not saying its good, i`m just saying its better then vaporeon and arguable superior to latias, whos crap right now
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised no one's been talking about Heliolisk. He could very well be a vital asset in Rain, Sandstorm and Sun teams with his abilities. His stats look kinda poor on paper but his abilities are really what define him. Dry Skin and Solar Power are quite good IMO and Sand Veil isn't piss-poor either.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't sand veil banned?
 

MedievalMovies

Absolute Power
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't sand veil banned?

With the nerf of weather, PS put Sand Veil as usable again. I used a Sand Veil Garchomp just a few days ago.
 

LinksOcarina

The true master
You sure? I don't think the evasion abilities clause was removed.

They shouldn't have been banned to begin with really, but since its now a temporary measure for five-eight turns, the likeihood of evading an attack is maybe one out of every 5 that hit you, so it is really insignificant unless you gamble with 70% accuracy moves all the time. The fact that this caused some pokemon to be completly unviable due to a complex ban annoyed me frankly. Moves and items, let them go sure, that is controllable. Abilities and conditions, that should be strategy.
 
Goodra is honestly crap, its outclassed by florges and sylveon, its lack of recovery hurts it a lot, and there really is no need for a special dragon wall, hence why latias isnt common anymore

Nah, Goodra is actually pretty good right now. It's probably the best special pivot in the current metagame. Its special bulk is nearly unrivaled, and 100/110 offenses are actually really solid, especially considering Goodra has one of the most overbloated offensive movepools in existence. It honestly doesn't care about not having reliable recovery because it doesn't play as a special wall (although RestTalk is far more reliable in XY than it was in BW, and HydraRest is perfectly usable). It also has a bonus of just about shutting down Rotom-W entirely, which is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, while also tanking stuff like Heatran, Jolteon, specially based Genesect, and even Greninja if you're running an Assault Vest set. Very little actually switches into Goodra easily, and it has plenty of switch-in opportunities with its insane special bulk. Sure, it may not be as metagame defining as Aegislash or Greninja, but it's nowhere near "crap."

As for Florges and Sylveon, they don't even get close to outclassing Goodra. Seriously, the only things they have in common are great special bulk, low physical bulk, and very similar special power. Goodra actually has more physical and special bulk than either of them, more speed, much more powerful STAB and coverage moves, and the ability to go mixed with a decent Atk stat. It also has 3 good abilities, while Sylveon and Florges's abilities range from extremely situational to downright useless. Sylveon and Florges are best used as defensive support Pokemon with maybe a bit of potential as Calm Mind sweepers. Goodra is a powerful bulky pivot with insane coverage and power. They just aren't very similar.

On the note of Latias, it isn't crap either. I've used it a bit on PS!, and it plays pretty similarly now to how it did last generation. It's just that there's a big choice now between Psyshock for killing Florges and Sylveon and Thunderbolt for Azumarill and Togekiss. Otherwise, it's still perfectly solid. The only Pokemon that really destroys it that it didn't have to deal with last generation is Aegislash, since it can switch in pretty and possibly Pursuit trap it. The reason it isn't used very much is simply because everyone is still trying out all the new stuff and experimenting with different cores and team styles. Besides, usage stats have never really been a great measurement of a Pokemon's viability, and trying to measure viability of a Pokemon based on its usage just a couple of weeks into a brand new generation is a terrible idea. If we were going by the usage stats, then Donphan, Jolteon, and Delphox are more viable than Hippowdon, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Kyurem-B, which is just ridiculous.

The only unique thing about Goodra is Gooey. It's possible Hydration sets are outclassed by Vaporeon and it's weaker than Vaporeon when it comes to taking a physical hit.

Vaporoen and Goodra have almost nothing in common besides good special bulk and Hydration. Vaporeon was already mediocre enough during late BW2 because most of the time it just sat there and looked bulky without actually doing much besides Wish passing or statusing a couple of things. The LO Tank set was actually a really cool and underrated set, but it's far worse off now since it needs a steady supply of Rain to keep Resting in front of various opponents and keep tossing off powerful Hydro Pumps. Goodra is a far better offensive pivot with its stronger STAB and far better coverage. HydraRest Goodra is not designed to stay in and wall all day long. It needs just one turn to Rest off damage and switch out for later, and it has far better synergy with Politoed than Vaporeon, which helps it do just that.

And as far as we know Goodra lacks 3 moves that Vaporeon has: Wish, Baton Pass, Aqua Ring.

Baton Pass and Aqua Ring are honestly really crappy outside of dedicated Baton Pass teams. Wish is all that Vaporeon really has over Goodra as far as recovery goes, and even then, Wish Vaporeon doesn't really do much besides pass Wishes and toss around Scalds. I'm honesty surprised it stayed OU for the duration of BW.

People need to take in consideration weather is hard to do now, you can just slap a politoed on a team with vaporeon/goodra and say it can use rest hydration as the switch is obvious and it can get KOed on the switch in

To be perfectly honest, I've been using that Rain team with Goodra plenty on both PO and PS!, and I've never had this problem. Most of the Pokemon that come in on Politoed are things like Rotom-W, Jolteon, and Heliolisk, which are all laughed at by Goodra. People never really predict that switch perfectly because there are 3 other members of my team I could switch to that are capable of abusing the Rain in some way. The fact that Goodra covers Politoed's 2 weaknesses perfectly only makes the duo even stronger.

plus rain is now the most inferior of the weathers having one inducer with sub par stats.

No, Hail is definitely still the most inferior weather. Hail has never been a very good weather to abuse, and even though Abomasnow has a Mega form now, it's still as slow as Christmas and has a plethora of easily abused weaknesses. I'd say that Sun is easily the second worse. Ninetales has always sucked; at least Politoed has great defensive typing and solid bulk. Mega Charizard Y isn't exactly a perfect weather starter either since it makes Defog/Rapid Spin support even more mandatory than it was before. Sun is also far harder to abuse than it used to be. Chlorophyll sweepers are nowhere near as good as they used to be since they need a few turns to actually get in, set up, and start a sweep. Pokemon like Victini can still abuse the boost to Fire moves, but they don't have the ability to outspeed nearly everything under Sun. Maybe you'd have a point if DrizzleSwim were still banned, but it isn't. Swift Swim users can actually abuse both the boost in speed and a 1.5x boost to their STAB moves. Specs Kingdra is great right now since it has such great typing, outspeeds pretty much everything, and can hit hard from the get-go with Specs Hydro Pumps and Surfs. I can't tell you how many times I've sacked Politoed and swept with Kingdra with the remaining 4 turns of Rain (and it often doesn't even need that many). No Sun Pokemon can abuse both the speed boost of Chlorophyll and the STAB boost of Sun at the same time like Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. can do in Rain. Rain is nowhere near as good as it was last generation, but I'd say it's in about the same rank as it was in late BW2: second only to Sand.
 

KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
I don't mind having to deal with evasion abilities. Thought that's mostly luck based instead of actual strategy.

To be fair though, luck has always been a crucial factor with any strategy. Ask anyone who's either used Scald, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, etc. or had any of the above used against them, and see how high they rate luck as a factor.
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
To be fair though, luck has always been a crucial factor with any strategy. Ask anyone who's either used Scald, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, etc. or had any of the above used against them, and see how high they rate luck as a factor.

I never said it wasn't a crucial factor but i already know how an untimely miss or not getting hax when you most need it can be game-changing though.

On a different note i just noticed that deoxys is allowed in pokebank ou. Did anybody knew about this already? I just found out today.

Also sticky web can get defogged away. IDK if it can get rapid spinned away though.

And small question: Would contrary pokemon (Mainly malamar) get a speed raise from switching in while sticky web is out?
 

Eaglehawk

Banned
I'm surprised no one's been talking about Heliolisk. He could very well be a vital asset in Rain, Sandstorm and Sun teams with his abilities. His stats look kinda poor on paper but his abilities are really what define him. Dry Skin and Solar Power are quite good IMO and Sand Veil isn't piss-poor either.

The problem is that Heliolisk came one generation too late. If it was in Gen V, it would have undoubtedly shat on the metagame for being a versatile weather sweeper, but with the nerf to weather, it's nothing but a novelty. The only useful ability I can see it using is Dry Skin, which affords him a free resistance to water.

I never said it wasn't a crucial factor but i already know how an untimely miss or not getting hax when you most need it can be game-changing though.

On a different note i just noticed that deoxys is allowed in pokebank ou. Did anybody knew about this already? I just found out today.

Also sticky web can get defogged away. IDK if it can get rapid spinned away though.

And small question: Would contrary pokemon (Mainly malamar) get a speed raise from switching in while sticky web is out?

In case you don't know what happens to the tier list every new generation, everything is fair game. The only Pokemon they ban are the Flagship Legendaries and things that would be way to overpowered for the OU metagame (i.e. Arceus). Everything else that were previously Uber (Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys) are all released so that the players can develop a metagame around them and identify which Pokemon makes the game uncompetitive.

Sticky Web can be spun away.

Sticky Web does proc Contrary. Switching Malamar into Sticky Web gives it a +1 in Speed.
 
Sticky Web does proc Contrary. Switching Malamar into Sticky Web gives it a +1 in Speed.

Another thing to note is that Malamar is quite possibly the lolziest counter to idiot Aegislash users there is. It almost hurts seeing newbs use King's Shield against this thing. That's about all Malamar is good for in this metagame, sadly, as a whopping zero resistances do not help it at all in the synergy department.
 

The Master Chief

Well-Known Member
Malamar does have a nice little niche with Topsy-Turvy in doubles. Other than that Malamar really doesn't have anything that makes it stand out. Just people spamming superpower with contrary.
 
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