Official 6th Generation Competitive Metagame Discussion

[MuhFugginMoose]

i know its likley going to stay in the lower tiers and not see play in the ou , but since its stat updates how viable is vileplume right now ?

I don't see it spiking much if any.
The only thing it really gained through the transition is 10 SpA and a fairy resitance. Even with that, it's a pretty bad Poke.

 

[The Imposter]

I don't see it spiking much if any.
The only thing it really gained through the transition is 10 SpA and a fairy resitance. Even with that, it's a pretty bad Poke.

It gained Dazzling Gleam too. Now it has the ability to hit its biggest counter... wait... Now it has the ability to hit its second-biggest counter... wait... Now it has the ability to hit its third-biggest counter... wait...

Yeah, Vileplume doesn't have much going for it. A little more SAtk, Fairy resist, and a weak coverage move don't constitute a major improvement by any stretch.

 

[KillerDraco]

It doesn't help matters that while Vileplume did get a little extra Special Attack, its competition as a bulky Grass/Poison type, Venusaur, got a Mega Evolution that completely renders Vileplume outclassed in every way, shape, and form.

But hey! Getting Dazzling Gleam too is... um... something? Ah well. It'll be slightly better than it was but still not quite up to snuff for standard play. It's more or less the same Vileplume. It's not like, oh say, Scolipede, who in addition to a slight stat boost got a godsend of a buff in the form of Speed Boost. The stat increases, while nice for all Pokemon who received them, are not exactly gamebreaking or even enough to get a tier shift.

 

[GreenSweeper]

Are we allowed to post replays from PokemonShowdown.com here by any chance?

 

[The Imposter]

It doesn't help matters that while Vileplume did get a little extra Special Attack, its competition as a bulky Grass/Poison type, Venusaur, got a Mega Evolution that completely renders Vileplume outclassed in every way, shape, and form.

But hey! Getting Dazzling Gleam too is... um... something? Ah well. It'll be slightly better than it was but still not quite up to snuff for standard play. It's more or less the same Vileplume. It's not like, oh say, Scolipede, who in addition to a slight stat boost got a godsend of a buff in the form of Speed Boost. The stat increases, while nice for all Pokemon who received them, are not exactly gamebreaking or even enough to get a tier shift.

Considering that most of the boosts were minute buffs to defenses, they really aren't making any waves. To be fair, Golem now has a base 120 Attack stat to work with. It could do well in the lower tiers.

Are we allowed to post replays from PokemonShowdown.com here by any chance?

When proving a point, replays are often helpful. That's about the only time you'll see them.

 

[GreenSweeper]

When proving a point, replays are often helpful. That's about the only time you'll see them.

Thanks for your answer Imposter. I'm new to competitive so I've been experimenting with different team combos. I just had an awesome match involving a Ninjask Baton Passed Mega Aggron and a Ninetails, but I don't think that fits under your criteria (other than to prove the point that Spe/Atk Buffed mega Aggron completely owns). I'm glad I asked. Thanks again.

 

[The Imposter]

Thanks for your answer Imposter. I'm new to competitive so I've been experimenting with different team combos. I just had an awesome match involving a Ninjask Baton Passed Mega Aggron and a Ninetails, but I don't think that fits under your criteria (other than to prove the point that Spe/Atk Buffed mega Aggron completely owns). I'm glad I asked. Thanks again.

Now that Scolipede gets Speed Boost, it does everything Ninjask does better, along with more. Ninjask is officially outclassed, plain and simple. But you are correct, that doesn't really seem to fall under common replay posting.

Continuing my Scolipede rant, it has better stats in every important area than Ninjask. It has a better typing. It has Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and a usable offensive movepool. All Ninjask has is a 4X Stealth Rock weakness.

 

[KillerDraco]

Now that Scolipede gets Speed Boost, it does everything Ninjask does better, along with more. Ninjask is officially outclassed, plain and simple. But you are correct, that doesn't really seem to fall under common replay posting.

Continuing my Scolipede rant, it has better stats in every important area than Ninjask. It has a better typing. It has Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and a usable offensive movepool. All Ninjask has is a 4X Stealth Rock weakness.

Indeed. The only thing Ninjask has that Scolipede doesn't is 2 points of HP (which is barely even worth mentioning) and considerably more starting speed, but after the Speed Boosts start accumulating, this doesn't matter in the slightest. Better bulk on both sides, including considerably more physical bulk, makes Scolipede able to survive things that Ninjask couldn't even dream of.

other than to prove the point that Spe/Atk Buffed mega Aggron completely owns

To be fair though, most Pokemon are going to be pretty well off after getting Baton Passed a Swords Dance and a few Speed Boosts. It's not exclusive to Mega Aggron.

 

[GreenSweeper]

Now that Scolipede gets Speed Boost, it does everything Ninjask does better, along with more. Ninjask is officially outclassed, plain and simple. But you are correct, that doesn't really seem to fall under common replay posting.

Continuing my Scolipede rant, it has better stats in every important area than Ninjask. It has a better typing. It has Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and a usable offensive movepool. All Ninjask has is a 4X Stealth Rock weakness.

I forgot about Scolipede's Speed Boost, I'll give him a shot later. One advantage Ninjask has is its higher initial speed. Being the fastest non-legendary Pokemon, he can substitute without risking any damage, assuming the opponent doesn't use a priority move.

To be fair though, most Pokemon are going to be pretty well off after getting Baton Passed a Swords Dance and a few Speed Boosts. It's not exclusive to Mega Aggron.

This is true. I can see Mega Mawile completely wrecking.

 

[KillerDraco]

I forgot about Scolipede's Speed Boost, I'll give him a shot later. One advantage Ninjask has is it's higher initial speed. Being the fastest non-legendary Pokemon, he can substitute without risking any damage, assuming the opponent doesn't use a priority move.

Priority is pretty common though. Scizor's Bullet Punch, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, Zygarde/Dragonite/Lucario's Extreme Speed, Talonflame (period), Aegislash's Shadow Sneak... priority is more common than ever and this has a tendency to circumvent Ninjask's amazing speed, and prey on its absolutely pitiful bulk.

 

[GreenSweeper]

Just gave Scolipede a try, and I have to say I like him. Thank you both for your input.

 

[KingYoshi]

Hello everyone. I'm new to battling online, but I have been having a lot of fun breeding and trying out different combos for my team. Anyway, my favorite pokemon to use right now is Umbreon. Mine knows Toxic, Confuse Ray, Moonlight, and Psychic. Toxic and Confuse Ray together really cause issues for my opponents. Moonlight is money as I am usually running a sun team. Psychic is just there to help out a bit with fighting weakness. My only problems for Umbreon are the hard hitting physical attacks with STAB. Everything else pretty much has not been able to do anything with my Umbreon. This is using a Umbreon without perfect IVs mind you.

Anyway, I've now got a perfect Eevee that I'm going to turn into my competitive Umbreon. I went with a Calm nature. I need help deciding where to put the EVs. I pretty much want to defeat opponents with Toxic/Confuse Ray or set them up for Chandelure's Hex. I'm thinking 252 in defense for sure since this seems to be the main threat. Should I just toss 252 into Sp.D too or should I throw some in HP or even some in Speed? Any thoughts/help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Shneak]

Since we're on the topic of Scolipede I'm wondering if I should put any offensive moves on it for a lead Pokemon.

- Protect / Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes / Earthquake / Poison Jab

It essentially uses the first three right off the bat so that it passes boosts, but offensive moves might be safe just in case. If I encounter a Klefki, for example, I'm screwed. It will probably Taunt and I have nothing to do but switch. Earthquake could combat that.

 

[The Imposter]

Since we're on the topic of Scolipede I'm wondering if I should put any offensive moves on it for a lead Pokemon.

- Protect / Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes / Earthquake / Poison Jab

It essentially uses the first three right off the bat so that it passes boosts, but offensive moves might be safe just in case. If I encounter a Klefki, for example, I'm screwed. It will probably Taunt and I have nothing to do but switch. Earthquake could combat that.

If you want to use an offensive move on Scolipede, go Megahorn. It provides a powerful STAB of a decent offensive type. Don't worry about combating Klefki; Klefki's main goal in that situation is to Twave and Foul Play/Spike-stack like hell. If you want a non-passing lead, Spikes l Megahorn l Swords Dance/Toxic Spikes l filler.

 

[ghost_dog97]

teach scolipede hone claws instead of swords dance so you can always hit depending on how risky you are

 

[KillerDraco]

teach scolipede hone claws instead of swords dance so you can always hit depending on how risky you are

Ignore this.

Swords Dance is easily the most reliable thing for Scolipede to pass, as even with a single boost, +2 Attack and +1 Speed usually makes any sweeper ready to demolish entire teams. Hone Claws is a situational move that only tends to be preferable on things that don't get Swords Dance, or something like Hustle Durant. Most commonly used moves not named Stone Edge or Hi Jump Kick (well, as far as physical moves are concerned) tend to have perfect accuracy anyway. Swords Dance will be the superior option 95% of the time.

 

[Psynergy]

I can see the advantage of Hone Claws over Swords Dance, but it's definitely situational on something like Scolipede who will probably Baton Pass away, giving a likely unneeded accuracy boost. There is the matter of how much risk you want to take with accuracy, but the reward of Swords Dance is usually greater than patching up iffy accuracy on High Jump Kick, Stone Edge or Megahorn. And accuracy hasn't stopped many people from using Stone Edge and Focus Blast before (though I tend to avoid the latter, if possible).

Now, if we were talking about the Battle Subway/Maison, Hone Claws is quite useful to reduce the ever-present hax misses, but that's not exactly what we're talking about here.

 

[KillerDraco]

I can see the advantage of Hone Claws over Swords Dance, but it's definitely situational on something like Scolipede who will probably Baton Pass away, giving a likely unneeded accuracy boost. It's really a matter of how much risk you want to take with accuracy, but the reward of Swords Dance is usually greater than patching up iffy accuracy on High Jump Kick, Stone Edge or Megahorn. Similar to why someone would opt for Fire Blast over Flamethrower, but that's a different case.

That's the thing though; most of the common physical moves such as Close Combat, Dragon Claw/Outrage, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Superpower, Play Rough, Waterfall, Extreme Speed, etc. (you get my point) have perfect accuracy already. It's only a select few that need the accuracy, and usually players are willing to gamble on their accuracy, since the difference between +1 and +2 can often be the difference between a 2HKO and a 1HKO.

 

[McDanger]

As this has gotten a little derailed

Stall, how effective do you guys find it in the meta

I personally have had a lot of success with stall teams, more so then some balanced teams with how more balanced the meta is an not having to deal with kyurem black or hydro pump spam on every team, and even then it can be argued sylveon helps with kyurem black. The new biggest threat to stall teams imo is, aside from the obvious mega kanga whos broken as hell, is aegislash. With is massive offensive attacks, good enough movepool, and automize/swords dance, aegislash is unpredictable and makes it hard for stall teams to handle, making mandibuzz a nice part of stall teams with its ability to wall non choice band aegislash, which is rare, while other pokemon can be used to pressure it depending on its set such as hippowdon, sylveon, heatran, gliscor, and zapdos

 

[Eon Master]

As this has gotten a little derailed

Stall, how effective do you guys find it in the meta

I personally have had a lot of success with stall teams, more so then some balanced teams with how more balanced the meta is an not having to deal with kyurem black or hydro pump spam on every team, and even then it can be argued sylveon helps with kyurem black. The new biggest threat to stall teams imo is, aside from the obvious mega kanga whos broken as hell, is aegislash. With is massive offensive attacks, good enough movepool, and automize/swords dance, aegislash is unpredictable and makes it hard for stall teams to handle, making mandibuzz a nice part of stall teams with its ability to wall non choice band aegislash, which is rare, while other pokemon can be used to pressure it depending on its set such as hippowdon, sylveon, heatran, gliscor, and zapdos

I actually tried Stall for a while earlier on (in XY OU, not Pokebank), and I did much better than I expected (I haven't played much stall since late in Gen 4 OU, when Toxic Spikes were the name of the metagame). Frankly, with Mega Gengar gone, I think it'd actually be pretty useful. I disagree that Mega Kang is broken, but that's not the issue here. Stall teams hate her. I had to resort to running either Rocky Helmet Skarmory or Ferrothorn, and even then it wasn't always enough. Never had problems with Aegislash tbh, depending on set Gliscor and Tyranitar could take it out pretty easily. Mega Lucario was the biggest problem for me; barring Gliscor, nothing I ran could really deal with the damn thing late game.

Defog is definitely going to put a serious damper on Stall once it's more widely available come Pokebank time. That said, with Mega Gengar gone, the playstyle has a new lease on life for the foreseeable future.