Official 6th Generation Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Psynergy]

That's the thing though; most of the common physical moves such as Close Combat, Dragon Claw/Outrage, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Superpower, Play Rough, Waterfall, Extreme Speed, etc. (you get my point) have perfect accuracy already. It's only a select few that need the accuracy, and usually players are willing to gamble on their accuracy, since the difference between +1 and +2 can often be the difference between a 2HKO and a 1HKO.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I do see what he's saying with Hone Claws, but Swords Dance is almost always the better option. But that's not exactly a disputed point.

As this has gotten a little derailed

Stall, how effective do you guys find it in the meta

I personally have had a lot of success with stall teams, more so then some balanced teams with how more balanced the meta is an not having to deal with kyurem black or hydro pump spam on every team, and even then it can be argued sylveon helps with kyurem black. The new biggest threat to stall teams imo is, aside from the obvious mega kanga whos broken as hell, is aegislash. With is massive offensive attacks, good enough movepool, and automize/swords dance, aegislash is unpredictable and makes it hard for stall teams to handle, making mandibuzz a nice part of stall teams with its ability to wall non choice band aegislash, which is rare, while other pokemon can be used to pressure it depending on its set such as hippowdon, sylveon, heatran, gliscor, and zapdos

I can't say much for stall, since I've yet to try it out myself (or Pokebank OU, for that matter), but Aegislash is definitely going to threaten a lot of stall teams for exactly those reasons. I guess it goes without saying, but stall definitely finds a better place this gen than it did during the 5th Gen rain-fest.

 

[KillerDraco]

I concur. With the downfall of weather, Stall seems a lot more viable. I mean, having to deal with a mindless slew of rain-boosted Hydro Pumps on like every other team really put a damper on Stall last generation, since it had trouble dealing with the raw power being thrown around. But now that the rain-inducing Toad is seeing less usage, in addition to rain only lasting five turns when it is used, it gives Stall a chance to shine. It certainly helps stall teams that a nigh-impervious monster in Mega Aggron was added, as his colossal defense, steel typing, and fantastic ability in Filter seem tailor-made for Stall teams. Throw in Dragon Tail/Roar to shuffle and RestTalk to stay alive but still threaten, and good luck trying to KO that thing outside of boosted Fire Blasts.

 

[jesusfreak94]

I'd like to take this time to hype up one of the coolest underused Pokemon I've had the pleasure lately of seeing in action:

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Trait: Adapatability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
-Knock Off
-Aqua Jet
-Crabhammer
-Crunch / Superpower

Crawdaunt received a ton of little buffs in the transition to XY. Its Dark STAB is no longer resisted by Steel-types, so Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Empoleon can no longer just switch in willy-nilly. Knock Off's buff gives it a STAB move with an initial power comparable to a STAB Earthquake and one of the greatest side effects of any move in the game. Crabhammer got a decent little power boost to 100 BP, making it an even more impressive STAB move than it ever was. Finally, and most importantly, Crawdaunt gained a new egg move in Aqua Jet, giving it a fantastic tool to circumvent its speed issues. Its Aqua Jet is deceptively powerful as well, ~14% stronger than that of a Choice Band Azumarill. Due to the ridiculous power of its Adaptability-boosted STABs coming of a great base 120 Atk stat, Choice Band Crawdaunt is incredibly hard to switch into. Crabhammer is insanely powerful in its own right, easily 2HKOing the most physically defensive of Skarmory and even 3HKOing some less physically defensive variants of Ferrothorn. Aqua Jet is just a great priority move in general for picking off all sorts of offensive threats (again, its even more powerful than CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet). Even without the amazing initial power, Knock Off is one of the hardest moves to switch into in the game. Unless your Pokemon is holding a Mega Stone, they're most likely going to be taking a ton of damage from the attack and will be further crippled by losing their item (unless they have Sticky Hold, in which case Knock Off's power boost won't go away). Crunch is there for the main group that can handle Knock Off: Mega forms. Two Crunches are only marginally weaker than two Knock Off's against most Pokemon (160 BP vs 162.5 BP), so you can imagine that most Mega Pokemon that switch into Crunch are going to be taking a beating. Superpower isn't all that necessary since the fact that Steel no longer resists Dark makes it unneeded for potential targets such as Ferrothorn. However, it can be useful for Mega Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is generally a good switch-in since it can Intimidate Crawdaunt on the switch with its normal form, take Knock Off with ease, and change to Mega Gyarados to resist both of Crawdaunt's STABs and set up on it. Once Mega Gyarados has done this once (or if it has already Mega evolved earlier in the match), Crawdaunt can lure it in and KO with Superpower. The max Spe with the Adamant nature is necessary to outspeed uninvested Rotom-W, which is one of the most common Pokemon in the metagame. Besides, it's not like Crawdaunt is missing much bulk with its unimpressive 63 / 85 / 55 bulk.

 

[blackice27]

Forgive me if this was already discussed, but I bring you the critical hit Kingdra. I faced one of these not too long ago, and it took me completely by surprise. I honestly thought this guy just had insane luck until I did a bit of digging.

The Scope Lens + Focus Energy combination results in every attack move being a critical hit. Combine that with an ability like Sniper, and suddenly you have a very real threat.

Kingdra w/ Scope Lens
Trait: Sniper
-Focus Energy

This set would of course also work on anything else with a sniper-like ability, providing access to a focus energy.

 

[Excitable Boy]

Forgive me if this was already discussed, but I bring you the critical hit Kingdra. I faced one of these not too long ago, and it took me completely by surprise. I honestly thought this guy just had insane luck until I did a bit of digging.

The Scope Lens + Focus Energy combination results in every attack move being a critical hit. Combine that with an ability like Sniper, and suddenly you have a very real threat.

Kingdra w/ Scope Lens
Trait: Sniper
-Focus Energy

This set would of course also work on anything else with a sniper-like ability, providing access to a focus energy.

I've heard of using a set like that in conjunction with a move such as Draco Meteor, and using the critical hits to avoid having the SpA drops factored in.

 

[GreenSweeper]

I've been experimenting with Sashed Smeargle as lead. By FAR my favorite lead. Period.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Jolly Nature (+Spe/-Atk)
252 Spe 252 HP 4 SpD

Mean Look
Spore
Dragon Dance/Tail Glow/Focus Energy
Baton Pass

Dragon Dance and Tail Glow are pretty self explanatory. (DD = +1.5x Atk & Spe; TG = +2.5x SpA) But some of you are probably confused by my choice of Focus Energy. Well as Blackice mentioned earlier on this page, If you have a Pokemon holding Scope Lense, and they get the crit rate boost with FE, they basically have a 100% crit rate. Couple this with the likes of Sniper and you can sweep whole teams no problem. I actually used this strategy with a Kingdra earlier. You can click the first link in my sig to see how the first test turned out. (Spoiler: Not well for the other guy)

 

[ghost_dog97]

I concur. With the downfall of weather, Stall seems a lot more viable. I mean, having to deal with a mindless slew of rain-boosted Hydro Pumps on like every other team really put a damper on Stall last generation, since it had trouble dealing with the raw power being thrown around. But now that the rain-inducing Toad is seeing less usage, in addition to rain only lasting five turns when it is used, it gives Stall a chance to shine. It certainly helps stall teams that a nigh-impervious monster in Mega Aggron was added, as his colossal defense, steel typing, and fantastic ability in Filter seem tailor-made for Stall teams. Throw in Dragon Tail/Roar to shuffle and RestTalk to stay alive but still threaten, and good luck trying to KO that thing outside of boosted Fire Blasts.

ignore this
anyway, stall can be abused with sableye. For example, a 50 BP payback always becomes 100 BP since the pokemon with stall's speed is 0. Along with shadow sneak to revenge kill unexpectantly. Other pokemon with stall like Durant might have a harder time using it since it has a pretty viable speed stat.

 

[The Imposter]

ignore this
anyway, stall can be abused with sableye. For example, a 50 BP payback always becomes 100 BP since the pokemon with stall's speed is 0. Along with shadow sneak to revenge kill unexpectantly. Other pokemon with stall like Durant might have a harder time using stall since it has a pretty viable speed stat.

can't tell if trolling or just stupid

Anyway, stall is still a fairly viable playstyle with such new threats as sylveon, m-aggron, and m-venusaur, but it seems like semi-stall is the way to go. Pure stall isn't too helpful in a metagame with defog running rampant, so it helps to have some offense on stall teams nowadays. Bulky sd mega scizor has been rather fun on a semi-stall team, as have been other almost stall mons.

 

[KillerDraco]

ignore this
anyway, stall can be abused with sableye. For example, a 50 BP payback always becomes 100 BP since the pokemon with stall's speed is 0. Along with shadow sneak to revenge kill unexpectantly. Other pokemon with stall like Durant might have a harder time using it since it has a pretty viable speed stat.

We're talking about stall the strategy, not stall the ability. Stall the ability is useless anyway, especially given Sableye needs Prankster to be at all useful. Stall strategies have existed long since before the stall ability was conceived. You didn't really think this one through, did you?

 

[McDanger]

ignore this
anyway, stall can be abused with sableye. For example, a 50 BP payback always becomes 100 BP since the pokemon with stall's speed is 0. Along with shadow sneak to revenge kill unexpectantly. Other pokemon with stall like Durant might have a harder time using stall since it has a pretty viable speed stat.

Its post like this that really piss me off, you clearly have no idea what stall is as killer dracos post is spot ****ing on where as yours is just saying how sableye, who is often used wrong and a waste of a team spot to "abuse" stall when the only way it really could "stop" stall is with taunt and even then most things will hit it hard as every stall team carries a sylveon, florges, or heatran who destroy sableye, and i dont even know why you mention durant as its a one side offensive monster and should never be used on a stall team unless you are completely ignorant. Even as an offensive monster, durant is meh against stall, stall was good in BW ru and, what a coincident, Durant was RU. The biggest threat to stall is aegislash, who can be handled with mandibuzz or different pokemon, and kyurem black whos not common anymore and is again, easier to handle. The biggest reason stall sucked last generation was noobs would slap a keldeo, politoed, and kyurem black on a team and call it a day and before that landorus incarnet, which with the rain nerf made mindless offensive harder to do which allows stall to be good yet again.
tl;dr, ignore ghost dogs post, hes doesnt know what stall is
@the imposter: if reached the verdict its the later of the two or just a really, really bad troll which is unlikely as he didnt know what trolling was

 

[The Imposter]

We're talking about stall the strategy, not stall the ability. Stall the ability is useless anyway, especially given Sableye needs Prankster to be at all useful. Stall strategies have existed long since before the stall ability was conceived. You didn't really think this one through, did you?

I somehow doubt that he was serious.

But yeah, sableye needs prankster to function. Stall is outright useless on it, and prankster makes sableye hell to get rid of. Physical attackers get burned and stalled to death, and special attackers get handled by blissey.

-Mcdanger: the truth is even stupider. He was talking about the actual ability stall, which makes you go last

 

[ghost_dog97]

We're talking about stall the strategy, not stall the ability. Stall the ability is useless anyway, especially given Sableye needs Prankster to be at all useful. Stall strategies have existed long since before the stall ability was conceived. You didn't really think this one through, did you?

Ah, well nevermind then
On THAT note... a good staller I could bring up is musharna. Even though its NU, hypnosis with zoom lens or the yawn/protect combo can be pretty threatening after using calm mind once or twice
And yes, prankster is the superior nature on sableye

 

[The Imposter]

Ah, well nevermind then
On THAT note... a good staller I could bring up is musharna. Even though its NU, hypnosis with zoom lens or the yawn/protect combo can be pretty threatening after using calm mind once or twice

Or you can just use Blissey as your special wall. Or Latias. Or Sylveon. Musharna is great in NU, but that's about the only place it's good for. Want a sleeper? Amoonguss. Want a CM Passer? Espeon. Musharna is completely outclassed in the upper tiers.

 

[ghost_dog97]

Or you can just use Blissey as your special wall. Or Latias. Or Sylveon. Musharna is great in NU, but that's about the only place it's good for. Want a sleeper? Amoonguss. Want a CM Passer? Espeon. Musharna is completely outclassed in the upper tiers.

with its massive health stat, blissey and sylveon are really the only one that outclass it in terms of tanking and stalling. No one even uses amoonguss that ive seen online anyway

 

[The Imposter]

with its massive health stat, blissey and sylveon are really the only one that outclass it in terms of tanking and stalling. No one even uses amoonguss that ive seen online anyway

Amoonguss is actually a really good defensive pivot with Spore, good bulk and typing, and Regenerator. Musharna's recovery is shaky at best in the common sandstorms of XY, and all the others have Wish and/or instant recovery. Musharna isn't that good in comparison to other pokemon.

 

[KillerDraco]

Amoonguss is actually a really good defensive pivot with Spore, good bulk and typing, and Regenerator. Musharna's recovery is shaky at best in the common sandstorms of XY, and all the others have Wish and/or instant recovery. Musharna isn't that good in comparison to other pokemon.

Not to mention mono-Psychic is not particularly good defensive typing, especially with Ghosts running rampant as the new offensive type of choice.

 

[Mudkipz_Lulz]

So I think Rain is getting thrown out the window waaaaaaay too early due to the so called "Weather Nerf". So what that Politoed's Drizzle has a turn limit now, that means Us rain users will get something that was banned for being OP, Swift Swim! I don't know about anyone else but I'm excited to get to add the likes of Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, Huntail, and Gorebyss; heck maybe we will see some new threats emerge like Assault Vest Mantine , Choice Band Beartic, or how about Carracosta? And finally people will have to think that my Stall SubSeed Ludicolo could be a Swift Swim Sweeper Ludicolo. The options are endless! Long live rain!

*Note: I don't go on Smogon forums a whole lot and have yet to add a Swift Swim to my Drizzle team on Showdown so I'm not sure if it's unbanned or not yet? Can someone confirm this? And if it's not unbanned yet I'm certain it will soon, the whole point of banning drizzle/swift swim was endless rain which is no longer the case

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

So I think Rain is getting thrown out the window waaaaaaay too early due to the so called "Weather Nerf". So what that Politoed's Drizzle has a turn limit now, that means Us rain users will get something that was banned for being OP, Swift Swim! I don't know about anyone else but I'm excited to get to add the likes of Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, Huntail, and Gorebyss; heck maybe we will see some new threats emerge like Assault Vest Mantine , Choice Band Beartic, or how about Carracosta? And finally people will have to think that my Stall SubSeed Ludicolo could be a Swift Swim Sweeper Ludicolo. The options are endless! Long live rain!

*Note: I don't go on Smogon forums a whole lot and have yet to add a Swift Swim to my Drizzle team on Showdown so I'm not sure if it's unbanned or not yet? Can someone confirm this? And if it's not unbanned yet I'm certain it will soon, the whole point of banning drizzle/swift swim was endless rain which is no longer the case

The combination is unbanned. I have a team in PS with Drizzle Politoed, Swift Swim Kingdra and Manaphy to abuse rain. The other are Rotom-W, Landorus-T and Crobat.

 

[Mudkipz_Lulz]

The combination is unbanned. I have a team in PS with Drizzle Politoed, Swift Swim Kingdra and Manaphy to abuse rain. The other are Rotom-W, Landorus-T and Crobat.

Thanks! Just after I posted this I went to check cause I was curious.

Edit: Mantine is still horrible and Huntail is surprisingly very good lulz

 

[The Imposter]

So I think Rain is getting thrown out the window waaaaaaay too early due to the so called "Weather Nerf". So what that Politoed's Drizzle has a turn limit now, that means Us rain users will get something that was banned for being OP, Swift Swim! I don't know about anyone else but I'm excited to get to add the likes of Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, Huntail, and Gorebyss; heck maybe we will see some new threats emerge like Assault Vest Mantine , Choice Band Beartic, or how about Carracosta? And finally people will have to think that my Stall SubSeed Ludicolo could be a Swift Swim Sweeper Ludicolo. The options are endless! Long live rain!

*Note: I don't go on Smogon forums a whole lot and have yet to add a Swift Swim to my Drizzle team on Showdown so I'm not sure if it's unbanned or not yet? Can someone confirm this? And if it's not unbanned yet I'm certain it will soon, the whole point of banning drizzle/swift swim was endless rain which is no longer the case

The issue here is that they have a maximum of seven turns to sweep. Yeah, they can do some damage, but it's so easy to just kill the Politoed and stall out the remaining weather turns. It's one of those things that you have to play right to do well with, but not everybody knows how to play them right.

People send out their Swift Swimmers early-game, and it makes me laugh. Everything has enough health to take their hits, so I cam just knock them out easily. Decent players know to send out their Swift Swimmers late-game when everything can be OHKOd by their attacks. However, good players have swimmers for early-game wallbreaking and late-game sweeping, and use them in their designated roles (i.e. Kingdra works well as a wall-breaker, Kabutops as a sweeper). It's a potent playstyle, but it can be stopped.