Official 6th Generation Competitive Metagame Discussion

[KillerDraco]

What are the prospects for Volcarona this time around?
It will probably be outshone by new fire type threats like mega charizard and talonflame, right?

Not necessarily; Different Pokemon, different roles. Talonflame and Mega Charizard X are both physical sweepers, and Talonflame makes a better revenge killer. Mega Charizard Y is more meant to bust down walls. None of these new advents detract from the fact that Volcarona is still a solid special sweeper given it has access to one of the best (if not the single best) boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance. Plus, Volcarona definitely appreciates the Defog buff making Stealth Rock easier to keep off the field.

 

[Excitable Boy]

What are the prospects for Volcarona this time around?
It will probably be outshone by new fire type threats like mega charizard and talonflame, right?

Not necessarily. It's still got one of the best boosting moves in the game on its side, a unique STAB combo, and an excellent stat spread going for it. While it's more difficult for it to abuse weather this time around due to the nerfs to Drought and Drizzle, it benefits from the prevalence of Defog in the metagame to help get rid of Sneaky Pebbles. Unlike Charizard, it doesn't take up a Mega slot, which frees you up to use it in conjunction with Mega Aggron or Mega Lucario or whathaveyou.

 

[NeptuneCloyster]

Did salamence get any buffs this gen?

 

[KillerDraco]

Did salamence get any buffs this gen?

No. It's got slightly more trouble due to the fact that Scarf MoxieMence's snowball effect is not quite as foolproof with the advent of fairy types, but all in all it's still very usable. It also appreciates the Defog buff helping keep Stealth Rock off the field. Still though, Salamence's lack of bulk can be problematic, as old rivals Scizor and Mamoswine still revenge kill it without much difficulty, while new things like Talonflame and Aegislash can revenge kill it reasonably well too. Meanwhile rival Dragon Dancers such as Dragonite and Zygarde boast significantly more bulk, but it doesn't make Salamence a bad Pokemon by any means.

 

[Zenosparadox]

Now what about Unaware defensive Quagsire? In theory wouldn't he be good against Talonflame and Megazard X?

 

[KillerDraco]

Now what about Unaware defensive Quagsire? In theory wouldn't he be good against Talonflame and Megazard X?

Physically Defensive Unaware Quagsire has always had a niche of being a check to setup sweepers, given it ignores their boosts. That said, outside of this niche it's pretty underwhelming, as its all-around mediocre stats don't do it any favors. It also can't check Mold Breaker users or Kyurem-B due to Terravolt. And of course, its special bulk is comparatively lacking, and its speed is terrible.

Though I would be wary of Choice Band variants of Talonflame since it can't switch into it...

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after Stealth Rock or 1 layer of spikes)

 

[Zachmac]

Now what about Unaware defensive Quagsire? In theory wouldn't he be good against Talonflame and Megazard X?

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I've seen less suicidal, more reliable ways to check them.

 

[Zenosparadox]

Physically Defensive Unaware Quagsire has always had a niche of being a check to setup sweepers, given it ignores their boosts. That said, outside of this niche it's pretty underwhelming, as its all-around mediocre stats don't do it any favors. It also can't check Mold Breaker users or Kyurem-B due to Terravolt. And of course, its special bulk is comparatively lacking, and its speed is terrible.

Though I would be wary of Choice Band variants of Talonflame since it can't switch into it...

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after Stealth Rock or 1 layer of spikes)

Well that's disappointing. I was hoping to run it. Does Gastrodon do any better really? It has clear smog and storm drain. Or just in general, how well does it do this gen?

 

[Zachmac]

Well that's disappointing. I was hoping to run it. Does Gastrodon do any better really? It has clear smog and storm drain. Or just in general, how well does it do this gen?

With the fall of rain, it lost a huge niche, but it still wrecks Rotom-W, Mega Manetric, and other electric/water types.

It can't really stop Talonflame or Charizard like you asked, but if you really want one, it could serve as anti-voltturn.

 

[The Imposter]

With the fall of rain, it lost a huge niche, but it still wrecks Rotom-W, Mega Manetric, and other electric/water types.

It can't really stop Talonflame or Charizard like you asked, but if you really want one, it could serve as anti-voltturn.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 172-204 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not the best damage ever, even with maximum investment. Adding in the fact that Rotom-W and MegaNectric can just as easily run Hidden Power Grass and crush this thing like a... slug... things aren't shaping up too well for Gastrodon. Genesect can also wreck it with the rare Giga Drain, so it can only wreck the Volt part of VoltTurn.

 

[Klaus™]

Genesect never runs giga drain. It always runs energy ball.

Salamence, like last generation, is still bad. Theres no point in asking questions like "will X pokemon do well" as the metagame has been out for about a month and a half. So you can literally play and find out for yourself. Salamence is and has sucked since last generation. Scarf moxiemence is actually pretty bad, as there are far better cleaners, especially now with things like charizard y or mega lucario that can basically be shoved on any team and still be good.

48% is amazing damage against a thing that is supposed to be "anti voltturn". Considering you force it out by uturning on the switch (switching in things that force it out which is a lot).

Im interested as to what prople think about zygarde. Ive personally found it underwhelming. No dragon claw sucks, but it has espeed. It has a **** ability. Yeah it can set up but its forced out by common pokemon like rotom w

 

[Zachmac]

48% is amazing damage against a thing that is supposed to be "anti voltturn". Considering you force it out by uturning on the switch (switching in things that force it out which is a lot).

Yes, but it is immune to VoltSwitch and Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which means it could put a halt to their offensive momentum. Furthermore, Scizor is unable to swap in and pick it back up.

Im interested as to what prople think about zygarde. Ive personally found it underwhelming. No dragon claw sucks, but it has espeed. It has a **** ability. Yeah it can set up but its forced out by common pokemon like rotom w

I'm carrying one in my current team.

It dragon dances well enough, but mostly has problems breaking through walls. Skarmory is especially a problem for it. Usually, I save it for the late game and aim for +2.
I think it'll mostly be overshadowed by Charizard-X and Dragonite, but it has the huge advantage of a stealth rock resistance.

I also see potential for a Dragon Dance/Coil set.

 

[The Imposter]

Yes, but it is immune to VoltSwitch and Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which means it could put a halt to their offensive momentum. Furthermore, Scizor is unable to swap in and pick it back up.

Even if it is anti-VoltTurn as you claim (which it doesn't even do that good of a job at), that's still its only niche in a basically weatherless metagame. Why should I run Gastrodon when there are other guys that can do its other jobs better?

 

[Zachmac]

Even if it is anti-VoltTurn as you claim (which it doesn't even do that good of a job at), that's still its only niche in a basically weatherless metagame. Why should I run Gastrodon when there are other guys that can do its other jobs better?

Maybe you just really have VoltSwitch?

I'm not arguing Gastrodon is going to make OU, I'm just saying it has a niche. There are plenty of pokemon that don't make OU but can still have uses there. This thing has the advantage of being able to come in on any of Rotom-W's attacks and scare Scizor from coming in.

 

[Klaus™]

Yes, but it is immune to VoltSwitch and Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which means it could put a halt to their offensive momentum. Furthermore, Scizor is unable to swap in and pick it back up.I'm carrying one in my current team.

It dragon dances well enough, but mostly has problems breaking through walls. Skarmory is especially a problem for it. Usually, I save it for the late game and aim for +2.
I think it'll mostly be overshadowed by Charizard-X and Dragonite, but it has the huge advantage of a stealth rock resistance.

I also see potential for a Dragon Dance/Coil set.

so gastrodon is not anti voltturn. Its anti gastrodon. And not even then if it carries toxic

 

[The Imposter]

so gastrodon is not anti voltturn. Its anti gastrodon. And not even then if it carries toxic

Rotom can also have trick, basically screwing over your Rotom-W counter by giving it a completely useless choice scarf. It can also smack gastro for major damage with hp grass, so yeah, gastro isn't even that good in that role.

 

[Orithan]

Hydreigon might go UU just because of the new Fairy typing screwing it over, but it is still potent from my testing.

The 4x fairy weakness, while hurts, isn't that bad. Terrakion just got a Fairy weakness, giving it a grand total of 7 weaknesses, and it will still be a very dangerous threat - Terra will just have to be slightly more careful in this meta. The same goes with Hydregion, who has become more dangerous because of the Steel nerf, it will just have to be slightly more careful. And it can also run Flash Cannon over Flamethrower/Fire Blast on the Sub set to punish faries, that are not Azumarill, who think they can just switch in and blast it away. It may be inferior, as Hydra can't hurt Ferrothorn or Skarmory anymore, but it does work for surprise value.

If it does go to UU, it will get voted right off the island - I saw that happen on PO.

 

[jireh the provider]

So just something I am curious with. For any pokemon that has a Jack of All stats (balanced) (eg: Togekiss, Flygon, the 100 based fairies, Houndoom, etc), how would they fare in the Bulky Offensive metagame of today? Are they having a good advantage this time compared to last generation's weather wars?

For me, those pokemon could become as popular as bulky offense simply because of their multiple roles (ex: Celebi and Jirachi last gen). They are not offensively pro like hyper offense. They are not that slow and/or durable like bulky offense. Yet they are not so bulky like stall.

 

[Zachmac]

Rotom can also have trick, basically screwing over your Rotom-W counter by giving it a completely useless choice scarf. It can also smack gastro for major damage with hp grass, so yeah, gastro isn't even that good in that role.

That wasn't a 2HKO in gen 5, I don't think it'll 2HKO in gen 4. Not like they ever carry that move...

But yeah, I guess for the most part, you're correct.

So just something I am curious with. For any pokemon that has a Jack of All stats (balanced) (eg: Togekiss, Flygon, the 100 based fairies, Houndoom, etc), how would they fare in the Bulky Offensive metagame of today? Are they having a good advantage this time compared to last generation's weather wars?

For me, those pokemon could become as popular as bulky offense simply because of their multiple roles (ex: Celebi and Jirachi last gen). They are not offensively pro like hyper offense. They are not that slow and/or durable like bulky offense. Yet they are not so bulky like stall.

Togekiss has better typing now, defog buff, and it's infamous paraflinch combo.

Flygon is by no means a good offensive pokemon and it's bulk is...not overwhelming. It's best niche is as a defogger, thanks to it's resistance to hazards, decent speed, and U-turn. It can be used.

Houndoom I don't have high hopes for. It can make a fair sweeper with it's speed boost from mega evolution and Nasty Plot, however.

I'm curious about Jirachi thanks to it's two new weakness, but I predict it'll still be usable, Celebi can help Volt Turn, and Manaphy is still deadly with Tail Glow.

Shaymin struggles with competition with Mega Venusuar, but I'll give it credit for better recovery. Mew is very flexible, but it's defensive typing is not astounding and it struggles to set itself apart at any job it can preform. Saddly, Victini's typing does not scream "bulky offense" at all, and while V-Create is very powerful, it is just begging to be revenge killed.

 

[LizardonX]

So everyone behold the wonderful and terrifying power of funbro.

Spoiler: funbro

Leppa Berry
-Recycle
-Block
-Slack Off
-Heal Pulse

Oblivious makes it immune to taunt. Heal pulse heals away struggle recoil.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-68669845

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-58996040