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~ Official Pokémon News Discussion Thread ~ [POST POKEMON NEWS HERE]

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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
they have plenty of real-world references in the Japan-based games, you just don't get them

It's how obvious they are that annoys me. I would appreciate more subtlety. If I "didn't get them," that's likely because they were much more subtle.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
It's how obvious they are that annoys me. I would appreciate more subtlety. If I "didn't get them," that's likely because they were much more subtle.

That's the point though; they aren't any more subtle, really. Things like Lumiose Tower/Eiffel Tower stand out a bit more because of how well known the Eiffel Tower is, but it's not really any less subtle than, say, Burned Tower/Kinkaku-ji or Tohjo Falls/Shiraito and Otodome. The region design itself is no more derivative of the real world location it's based on now than it was then, either.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
that, and it's also a lot more noticeable when your buildings are all uniquely textured and modeled as opposed to being rearrangements of a few tilesets; if you ported, idk, Unova to the GameBoy, you'd lose a lot of the distinctness of it just from the graphical downgrade because every area looks pretty much the same to the point where it's much harder to pick out analogous landmarks or architecture and you're stuck with just references
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
That's the point though; they aren't any more subtle, really. Things like Lumiose Tower/Eiffel Tower stand out a bit more because of how well known the Eiffel Tower is, but it's not really any less subtle than, say, Burned Tower/Kinkaku-ji or Tohjo Falls/Shiraito and Otodome. The region design itself is no more derivative of the real world location it's based on now than it was then, either.

That's my point though. Picking something more well-known is a whole lot less subtle than picking something that's more of a locally-known thing. I don't mind the real-world references existing, I just don't want to be blatantly in your face.

that, and it's also a lot more noticeable when your buildings are all uniquely textured and modeled as opposed to being rearrangements of a few tilesets; if you ported, idk, Unova to the GameBoy, you'd lose a lot of the distinctness of it just from the graphical downgrade because every area looks pretty much the same to the point where it's much harder to pick out analogous landmarks or architecture and you're stuck with just references

Even if that is the case, which I'll admit it is to a certain degree, but not entirely, it's not just the geography/architecture. It's also the culture. For example, in Kalos, every route has a secondary name that's in French, or in Alola everyone greets each other by saying Alola and calls each other cousin. Even Johto didn't have people saying konichiwa to you.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
That's my point though. Picking something more well-known is a whole lot less subtle than picking something that's more of a locally-known thing. I don't mind the real-world references existing, I just don't want to be blatantly in your face.

What's well known is a relative thing. To the western audience the references in earlier games felt more subtle, but I'd bet good money that they were pretty in-your-face to people more aware of Japanese culture. In both cases they're taking real world locations and making not very subtle use of them in the games; that one is more known on a multi-national scale and the other more on a national scale is semantics at best. The spirit of making very blatant use of real world locations is the exact same.

Excitable Boy made a really good point about the graphics playing a role in how in-your-face it all is too, though.

Even if that is the case, which I'll admit it is to a certain degree, but not entirely, it's not just the geography/architecture. It's also the culture. For example, in Kalos, every route has a secondary name that's in French, or in Alola everyone greets each other by saying Alola and calls each other cousin. Even Johto didn't have people saying konichiwa to you.

Wait... you're going to have to walk me through this part. When did giving a region its own identity (which would be similar to the identity its real world location has, as derivative work is wont to do) become a problem that they had to cut back on?
 

rateiosu

Colombian Friki
Looking back at the Salazzle codes, they are being given here in Colombia as well. You can get them in some Alkosto or KTronix stores across the country. I have no word about getting them in other similar places. I'll keep you updated.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
What's well known is a relative thing. To the western audience the references in earlier games felt more subtle, but I'd bet good money that they were pretty in-your-face to people more aware of Japanese culture. In both cases they're taking real world locations and making not very subtle use of them in the games; that one is more known on a multi-national scale and the other more on a national scale is semantics at best. The spirit of making very blatant use of real world locations is the exact same.

Excitable Boy made a really good point about the graphics playing a role in how in-your-face it all is too, though.

But there is a difference in how well-known said things are world-wide, and from an objective viewpoint, that's what matter more when judging how obvious it is. You could work in some extremely vague and obscure location into a game, and odds are that someone, somewhere will know exactly what it is. But to the rest of the world, it will be a subtle reference that would require actual research to figure out what it means.

Wait... you're going to have to walk me through this part. When did giving a region its own identity (which would be similar to the identity its real world location has, as derivative work is wont to do) become a problem that they had to cut back on?

Because that identity is full of annoying stereotypes and is extremely uncreative.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
But there is a difference in how well-known said things are world-wide, and from an objective viewpoint, that's what matter more when judging how obvious it is. You could work in some extremely vague and obscure location into a game, and odds are that someone, somewhere will know exactly what it is. But to the rest of the world, it will be a subtle reference that would require actual research to figure out what it means.

They are not vague or obscure. They might not been know world-wide... but everyone who knows a little bit more about Japan knows them. The point is that Japan is generally not well know compared to Paris for exemple.
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
Because that identity is full of annoying stereotypes and is extremely uncreative.

And the salient point people are making to you in response is that if the regions based on Japan were not as referential to their real-world counterparts, then it was a close thing, and that you only believe the heavy French influence in Kalos to be "full of annoying stereotypes and is extremely uncreative" (it's not, on either count) because you're less familiar with Japanese geography and regional culture and more familiar with the French versions on both counts.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
They are not vague or obscure. They might not been know world-wide... but everyone who knows a little bit more about Japan knows them. The point is that Japan is generally not well know compared to Paris for exemple.

The definition of obscure is not well-known. So if Japan is not as well known as Paris, it is more obscure, by definition.

And the salient point people are making to you in response is that if the regions based on Japan were not as referential to their real-world counterparts, then it was a close thing, and that you only believe the heavy French influence in Kalos to be "full of annoying stereotypes and is extremely uncreative" (it's not, on either count) because you're less familiar with Japanese geography and regional culture and more familiar with the French versions on both counts.

There are two different factors in play here. There's the geography/architecture, and there's the culture. Even if the less familiar argument works for the geography/architecture, can you really say it applies to the culture side of things? Kalos gave every route a secondary name in French, had numerous NPCs say French words, and more. Can you really say that there is any equivalent in the first four regions?
 
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Thure

Well-Known Member
There are two different factors in play here. There's the geography/architecture, and there's the culture. Even if the less familiar argument works for the geography/architecture, can you really say it applies to the culture side of things? Kalos gave every route a secondary name in French, had numerous NPCs say French words, and more. Can you really say that there is any equivalent in the first four regions?

Route numbers are based on the fact that Japanese streets are numbered on the first place. So the whole thing with the routes is based on Japanese culture.

And remember: The games are designed for a Japanese audience. The original game is in Japanese. They DID use 'Konnichiwa' and 'Sayonara' in the first four regions. It was just the translation which removed this and translated it into English/German/French etc. So you could call it a translation/localization issue because in the Original Japanese version they did talk Japanese. How would you put random Japanese words in a Japanese game?

But yes. The whole culture of the first regions was based on Japanese culture. You just didn't noticed it or it was removed in translation.
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO
Apparently this was the final update for Magikarp Jump.

Sad. Hopefully Pokéland will get its full release soon.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Route numbers are based on the fact that Japanese streets are numbered on the first place. So the whole thing with the routes is based on Japanese culture.

That's a world-wide thing. Maybe it was specifically inspired by something in Japan, but nothing about it has to be Japanese.

And remember: The games are designed for a Japanese audience. The original game is in Japanese. They DID use 'Konnichiwa' and 'Sayonara' in the first four regions. It was just the translation which removed this and translated it into English/German/French etc. So you could call it a translation/localization issue because in the Original Japanese version they did talk Japanese. How would you put random Japanese words in a Japanese game?

But yes. The whole culture of the first regions was based on Japanese culture. You just didn't noticed it or it was removed in translation.

Well, yeah. Of course they spoke Japanese in the Japanese version, and they used only French for the French version of X and Y. There's an obvious difference that I shouldn't even have to point out. They translated it out of those games, but not X and Y.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
Well, yeah. Of course they spoke Japanese in the Japanese version, and they used only French for the French version of X and Y. There's an obvious difference that I shouldn't even have to point out. They translated it out of those games, but not X and Y.

Because EVERYTHING was in Japanese. And the translators choose to translate everything.

Let's say a English game set in London... Everyone would say 'Hello' or 'Goodbye'. Know how would the Japanese translators translate it? Of course with 'Konnichiwa' and 'Sayonara'. Would this remove English culture? No. Because everything was in English of course the translators translated everything. It's a matter of perspective. The first Games were from a Japanese perspective.
 

Sceptrigon

Armored Legend
It seems like gradually, the main series games have become more focused on being global in terms of language. IIRC, it started in Diamond and Pearl when the localization introduced having different languages recorded in the Pokedex. And in black and white, they added onto it by introducing trainers who spoke different languages before and after battles. So maybe the localization team has been bringing more focus on other cultures compared to the first few generations, where translation could have made it seem less obvious in the past than it does now. XY did have quite a lot of references to the French language like in Pokémon names, route signs, the credits, etc. Even in Sun and Moon, they've been naming almost every town and route with the Hawaiian language. Heck, even Solgaleo and Lunala spoke phrases in Hawaiian when they appeared in the games. On the other hand, it's not like there was any the intention of keeping Japanese in the first four regions, other than the names of very few Pokémon species. So I can see where Bguy is coming from, where the focus on other countries and cities seem to become more emphasized, mainly through recent localizations.

Another element I can think of is the music. Other than Johto, none of the other first regions included Japanese themed music and only had their own themes going on, which I can agree with Bguy in terms of the "unique" or "separated" feel of the regions. In Kalos, they had more music with French themes, and in Sun/Moon with Hawaiian themes although they still maintained a variety.


Other than language and music, I guess it's hard to say if there's equal or more/less representation of the real world regions in terms of geography and other cultural elements.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
As far as the language goes, that makes perfect sense for the reason Thure already pointed out. When the games were focusing on regions based on Japan, everything was in Japanese, and there was nothing to emphasize; everything was Japanese in one game, and English in the other (except that one time Fantina was English in the Japanese games, and because you can't highlight someone speaking English in an English game, they made her French). But when a Japanese game highlights French/Hawaiian aspects, of course it will be easier for the localization to follow suit.
 

Sceptrigon

Armored Legend
As far as the language goes, that makes perfect sense for the reason Thure already pointed out. When the games were focusing on regions based on Japan, everything was in Japanese, and there was nothing to emphasize; everything was Japanese in one game, and English in the other (except that one time Fantina was English in the Japanese games, and because you can't highlight someone speaking English in an English game, they made her French). But when a Japanese game highlights French/Hawaiian aspects, of course it will be easier for the localization to follow suit.


Yeah, I was building off of what Thure said. But there's always something you can emphasize, right? Couldn't they have used the romanized Japanese names for the cities in Johto, for instance, if they wanted to? Japanese tradition is the theme, so it would have been a perfect aesthetic. This would be the same way that they incorporated different languages in Kalos and Alola. I guess it's just a matter of the decision of the localization team and how they want to translate at the time. Like what was said before, they just decided to keep every single thing in English until recently.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Because EVERYTHING was in Japanese. And the translators choose to translate everything.

Let's say a English game set in London... Everyone would say 'Hello' or 'Goodbye'. Know how would the Japanese translators translate it? Of course with 'Konnichiwa' and 'Sayonara'. Would this remove English culture? No. Because everything was in English of course the translators translated everything. It's a matter of perspective. The first Games were from a Japanese perspective.

The way I see it, if it could be translated away, it wasn't that important to the game to begin with. There's such a strong emphasis to it in Kalos and Alola, that everything would be extremely different if it were remove.
 
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