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Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

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Ragnarok

#BeastMode
Staff member
Super Mod
The Tier list and rules that will be used on Serebii (to be used on Wi-Fi as well). Based off Smogon's tier list.

General Rules
Ubers are banned from OU downwards.
Dream World Pokemon currently unavailable are banned.
All moves that increase Evasion only (e.g. Minimize) are banned.
All instant OHKO moves (e.g. Horn Drill) are banned.
You may not use a Pokémon team carrying both Pokémon with the ability Swift Swim and the ability Drizzle.

Banned Abilities
Moody
Sand Veil
Snow Cloak

Banned Items
Soul Dew
Brightpowder
Lax Incense

Ubers
Code:
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Ice
Palkia
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-???
Kyurem-White
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Bug
Thundurus
Tornadus-Therian
Genesect
Arceus-Steel
Lugia
Excadrill
Arceus-Fighting
Darkrai
Deoxys
Manaphy
Ho-Oh
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Arceus-Dragon
Deoxys-Speed
Mewtwo
Dialga
Deoxys-Attack
Arceus
Shaymin-Sky
Groudon
Arceus-Flying
Zekrom
Arceus-Water
Rayquaza
Blaziken
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Ghost
Reshiram
Arceus-Grass
Kyogre
Arceus-Poison
Deoxys-Defense
Landorus

OU
Code:
Celebi
Tyranitar
Infernape
Tentacruel
Heatran
Reuniclus
Lucario
Donphan
Gastrodon
Haxorus
Jolteon
Mamoswine
Blissey
Venusaur
Volcarona
Espeon
Magnezone
Salamence
Conkeldurr
Hippowdon
Kyurem-Black
Latias
Ninetales
Hydreigon
Landorus-Therian
Politoed
Alakazam
Gliscor
Ferrothorn
Jirachi
Dragonite
Terrakion
Forretress
Gyarados
Vaporeon
Breloom
Scizor
Cloyster
Latios
Thundurus-Therian
Skarmory
Garchomp
Jellicent
Gengar
Toxicroak
Keldeo
Dugtrio
Rotom-Wash
Metagross
Starmie

BL
Code:
Wobbuffet
Kyurem
Gothitelle
Staraptor
Chansey

UU
Note: The abilities Drought and Sand Stream but not Snow Warning are banned from tiers UU and below.
Code:
Heracross
Snorlax
Machamp
Mienshao
Scrafty
Rhyperior
Mew
Honchkrow
Kingdra
Slowbro
Xatu
Flygon
Sableye
Bronzong
Weavile
Chandelure
Rotom-Heat
Umbreon
Arcanine
Porygon-Z
Shaymin
Registeel
Tornadus
Porygon2
Cobalion
Mismagius
Crobat
Suicune
Blastoise
Darmanitan
Azumarill
Meloetta
Togekiss
Milotic
Swampert
Empoleon
Victini
Froslass
Zoroark
Virizion
Claydol
Abomasnow
Krookodile
Cofagrigus
Hitmontop
Bisharp
Houndoom
Dusclops
Gligar
Azelf
Yanmega
Raikou
Zapdos
Roserade
Sharpedo
Nidoking
Ambipom

BL 2
Code:
Venomoth
Cresselia

RU
Note: No pokemon in RU or below may have both Shell Smash AND Baton Pass on the same moveset.
Code:
Electivire
Manectric
Galvantula
Qwilfish
Moltres
Rhydon
Gallade
Mandibuzz
Spiritomb
Poliwrath
Absol
Scolipede
Cryogonal
Entei
Lanturn
Sandslash
Hitmonlee
Munchlax
Aggron
Clefable
Primeape
Omastar
Mesprit
Slowking
Steelix
Klinklang
Sigilyph
Tangrowth
Rotom
Sceptile
Drapion
Durant
Dusknoir
Snover
Hitmonchan
Magneton
Quagsire
Archeops
Hariyama
Crawdaunt
Magmortar
Smeargle
Aerodactyl
Typhlosion
Druddigon
Escavalier
Rotom-Mow
Medicham
Amoonguss
Cinccino
Kabutops
Lilligant
Nidoqueen
Crustle
Whimsicott
Bouffalant
Scyther
Feraligatr
Uxie
Ferroseed
Accelgor
Emboar

BL3
Code:
Jynx

NU
Code:
Weezing
Bastiodon
Misdreavus
Altaria
Roselia
Wartortle
Armaldo
Sawk
Ampharos
Gardevoir
Haunter
Glaceon
Rotom-Fan
Articuno
Kadabra
Skuntank
Ninjask
Miltank
Exeggutor
Rotom-Frost
Electabuzz
Torkoal
Kangaskhan
Regirock
Drifblim
Golurk
Stoutland
Electrode
Marowak
Cacturne
Lapras
Samurott
Floatzel
Liepard
Tangela
Alomomola
Gurdurr
Carracosta
Gorebyss
Jumpluff
Eelektross
Regice
Swellow
Ludicolo
Ditto
Piloswine
Musharna
Seismitoad
Pinsir
Braviary
Garbodor
Probopass
Sawsbuck
Charizard
Golem
Lickilicky
Zangoose

LC Banlist
Code:
Carvanha
Gligar
Meditite
Misdreavus
Murkrow
Scyther
Sneasel
Tangela
Vulpix
Yanma
Berry Juice
Dragon Rage
Sonic Boom

LC
Code:
Abra
Aipom
Anorith
Archen
Aron
Axew
Azurill
Bagon
Baltoy
Barboach
Beldum
Bellsprout
Bidoof
Blitzle
Bonsly
Bronzor
Budew
Buizel
Bulbasaur
Buneary
Burmy
Cacnea
Carvanha
Caterpie
Charmander
Cherubi
Chikorita
Chimchar
Chinchou
Chingling
Clamperl
Cleffa
Combee
Corphish
Cottonee
Croagunk
Cubchoo
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Darumaka
Deerling
Deino
Diglett
Doduo
Dratini
Drifloon
Drilbur
Drowzee
Ducklett
Duskull
Dwebble
Eevee
Ekans
Electrike
Elekid
Elgyem
Exeggcute
Feebas
Ferroseed
Finneon
Foongus
Frillish
Gastly
Geodude
Gible
Glameow
Gligar
Goldeen
Golett
Gothita
Grimer
Growlithe
Gulpin
Happiny
Hippopotas
Hoothoot
Hoppip
Horsea
Houndour
Igglybuff
Joltik
Kabuto
Karrablast
Klink
Koffing
Krabby
Kricketot
Larvesta
Larvitar
Ledyba
Lickitung
Lileep
Lillipup
Litwick
Lotad
Machop
Magby
Magikarp
Magnemite
Makuhita
Mankey
Mantyke
Mareep
Meditite
Meowth
Mienfoo
Mime Jr.
Minccino
Misdreavus
Mudkip
Munchlax
Munna
Natu
Nidoran♀
Nidoran♂
Nincada
Nosepass
Numel
Oddish
Omanyte
Onix
Oshawott
Panpour
Pansage
Pansear
Paras
Patrat
Pawniard
Petilil
Phanphy
Pichu
Pidgey
Pidove
Pineco
Piplup
Poliwag
Ponyta
Poochyena
Porygon
Psyduck
Purrloin
Ralts
Rattata
Remoraid
Rhyhorn
Riolu
Roggenrola
Rufflet
Sandile
Sandshrew
Scraggy
Scyther
Seedot
Seel
Sentret
Sewaddle
Shellder
Shellos
Shelmet
Shieldon
Shinx
Shroomish
Shuppet
Skitty
Skorupi
Slakoth
Slowpoke
Slugma
Smoochum
Snivy
Snorunt
Snover
Snubull
Solosis
Spearow
Spheal
Spinarak
Spoink
Squirtle
Starly
Staryu
Stunky
Sunkern
Surskit
Swablu
Swinub
Tailow
Tangela
Teddiursa
Tentacool
Tepig
Timburr
Tirtouga
Togepi
Torchic
Totodile
Trapinch
Treecko
Trubbish
Turtwig
Tympole
Tynamo
Tyrogue
Vanillite
Venipede
Venonat
Voltorb
Vullaby
Wailmer
Weedle
Whismur
Wingull
Woobat
Wooper
Wurmple
Wynaut
Yamask
Zigzagoon
Zorua
Zubat
 
I posted my opinions on Wob in the other thread. I guess I can give my two cents on the other 5.

Deoxys (both Normal and A) - I'm going to count this as one because they are very similar. Both have extremely high offensive stats and speed. They also have a tremendous movepool and would most likely centralize the metagame around priority attacks which would be required to take them down without taking significant damage. Based off of experience in 4th gen Ubers it would also make a very powerful lead which can kill just about any other lead while also getting down Rocks. Due to how effective it would be as a lead and sweeper (assuming priority attacks are absent) I say these forms are likely Uber.

Deoxys-D - I don't think this is as broken as the other forms. Its pretty similar to Cresselia only with a better movepool, which is something Cresselia would kill for. It could be an useful support pokemon and might benefit stall, and quite frankly stall needs all the help it can get this gen. While it does have the same support movepool which got its Speed counterpart banned in the previous gen it lacks the Speed to prevent itself from being Taunted so I think this will be manageable in OU.

Deoxys-S - This was easily the most broken pokemon that was ever allowed in 4th gen OU. In 5th gen there are many changes which could help balance it out though. The fact you can see it before battle and choose a lead accordingly can prevent it from being as broken as it previously was. The absence of Rotom-A to keep its hazards around might also hinder it, though there are many more Ghosts this time around so its an even trade off in that regard. The only thing which worries me at this point is if it will be too powerful as a late game cleaner or revenge killer. Its worth testing in OU, though I'm still on the fence and think it is probably Uber.

Mew - There is simply too much that Mew can do. Baton Passing is the only role it ever uses in Ubers, though in OU it would probably be much harder to predict since it wouldn't be outclassed by everything else in the tier in one way or another. It can run just about any kind of offensive set, and it can support its team in a number of ways. I think its unpredictablility, as well as the stats to do just about anything with its bottomless movepool, is enough for it to be Uber, though if enough people think it should be tested in OU I wouldn't be opposed.
 

Moneyy

INACTIVE
I'll just give an opinion on what I think.

Mew - If Victini is not in Uber, I don't think Mew should be either. They have almost the same stats (I THINK), and a lot of things like Gengar and new Isshu Pokemon can take it out in OU.

Wobbufett - This should probably still be in Uber. In my opinion, it looks just as hard to beat since 4th Gen.

Deoxys - This I think should also be in Uber. It has great attack and speed in Attack Form, and great defenses in Defense Form.
 

Jb

Tsun in the streets
Are these effective now? or when b/w are relased in the states, also is smogon testing now or are they waiting for the release?
 
I'll throw in my two cents.

Deoxys-S: I'm afraid that D-S will just play the same role that it did back when it was previosly allowed in OU. Even without a solid lead metagame, D-S will still be the fastest Taunter, Spiker, Dual Screener, and attacker in OU...worse, the entire game. This means that he will still likely be broken under the support category. I say keep him Uber.

Deoxys-D: D-D is much less broken. Actually, I think that its bulk and access to Recover could prove useful in such a powerful metagame and still not be broken. Psychic is still a pretty bad defensive type, and without the right moves D-D makes perfect set-up fodder for Shanderaa. I say he's good for OU.

Other Deoxys: Deoxys's other two forms are too powerful and broken for OU. Yes, they are killed by priority with their frail defenses, but they also have very fast and powerful priority of their own. Uber.

Wobbufett: I think this guy is worth trying in OU again. Encore is a lot weaker now, and that was one thing that really helped Wobbufett to shine. I say he's worth testing in OU for now.

Mew: There's just too much versatility with Mew. It can use Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to sweep, it makes an amazing Baton Passer, it has an amazing movepool...is there anything that Mew can't do? On the other hand, Psychic isn't the best of types, and it could be balanced out by all of the new powerful attackers and NFE stallers with their Pre-Evo Stones. I guess testing is worth it, but I'm leaning towards Uber.
 
@ jb08045

They are active now. The games have been imported to America already and Wifi battles have been posted on Youtube. No reason to wait for Smogon to start.

Deoxys-Normal - 150/150/150 stats are incredibly high, but might be deceiving. Its defenses are obviously terrible so if it can't OHKO the opponent it dies. It must run a speed boosting nature to outrun anything more than the base 130s, and even with Hasty its going to be beaten by Scarf Garchomp, Flygon and Jirachi. Its defenses are retarded enough that it will not escape a 2HKO from even Blissey. Its probably Uber, but maybe not as bad as some people say..

- It must run a Hasty or Naive nature to outrun Scarf Rotom and Jolly Gyarados. If it does this it will have less attack than Metagross, and much worse STAB.
- It can not 2HKO Prevo Stone Porygon 2 with Superpower. Porygon 2 can be as low as 75% and still avoid being 2HKOed.
- It can not 2HKO Deoxys Defense with Shadow Ball if it is Specially Defensive. If it runs Shadow Ball it will likely not run STAB, cutting the number of things it can OHKO in half.
- Calm Prevo Stone Dusclops needs only 60 Special Defense EVs to guarantee survival against 2 Shadow Balls. It easily strikes back with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. I assume Dusclops will be primarily Specially Defensive anyway, so it can shrug off hits from Specs Latios.
- It can not 2HKO Calm Cresselia even if it runs no Special Defense EVs.
- Lucario and Scizor both survive some hits decently and can KO back.
- Metagross can hammer it with Bullet Punch and take any of its moves.
- Rotom can easily survive two of its hits with only about 60 Special Defense EVs. Only Psychic harms him.
- Spiritomb beats it, but Spiritomb sucks.
- Bronzong destroys it.
- Defensive Jirachi laughs at all of his moves.
- If Genosekuto or Melotta allowed into OU they can take any hit decently. Without priority they could drop to a second hit though.
- Shuckle lol.
- Nattorei (Grass / Steel Landmine thing) beats it assuming it doesn't have HP Fire. HP Fire has terrible coverage and like Deoxys S when it was OU, would probably never use it.
- Zuruzukin (Dark / Fighting) takes the hits ok, only disliking Superpower which it can survive two of if it runs HP EVs and intimidate (unless Deoxys runs a LOT of Attack EVs).
- Iwaparesu (Bug/Rock hermit crab) takes almost nothing from his attacks in a sandstorm assuming some defensive EVs.
- Prevo Stone Munchlax can just barely avoid a 2HKO from Superpower.
- Forretress is 3HKOed by any non-HP Fire hit.
- Dragonite can take SOME abuse from Superpower or Shadow Ball and clip it with Extremespeed.
- It will never switch in safely, but Dugtrio permanently removes it with Sucker Punch.
-Flygon, Jirachi, Latias, Latios, Garchomp and Shaymin all beat it while holding a Scarf, and can switch in moderately safely on some on its moves.

Its probably broken. I'm just supportive because its my favorite legend. ^_^ Uber.

Deoxys-A - It hits so ridiculously hard and so fast that even if you have priority you must predict perfectly. Scizor is easily 2HKOed by LO Thunderbolt forcing you to predict it switching, or take a huge risk by Bullet Punching. Unlike Deoxys regular is will easily 2HKO virtually everything Deoxys N 3HKOs. The defense loss is negligible compared to the added slaughter. I would call this Uber without much worry.

Deoxys-D - Defense similar to Nattorei but with Recovery. Its typing sucks and its defenses aren't all that amazing compared to Porygon 2 and Dusclops. It has an endless movepool but few worthwhile moves. Its worthy of a team slot, but doesn't wall everything and can be easily worn down by boosted hits and Scizor's douchings. I think OU.

Deoxys-S - He was pretty bad in OU last time. Dual Screens alone didn't do it, he was capable of doing anything and due to his speed could pull it off at any time. Cosmic Power / Taunt set could instantly destroy any team that couldn't quickly hit it with boosted Super Effective hits. A mixed revenge killer set could easily find itself sweeping (though Scizor might help regulate that). I'm on the fence here. I'll say Uber mostly because we don't seem to have any better answers this gen compared to last gen, which pretty much just turned out to be use Scizor or Paralyze it. Deoxys S was devastating against all team types. Uber.

Wobbuffet - When Wobbuffet was OU for that short period I stopped playing Pokemon along with several others due to how frustrating Wobbuffet is to play against. Yeah Encore is weaker, but it still guarantees a free setup. Its not like you're going to just sit there for 4+ turns. Wobb also eliminates Scarfers from doing much of anything. He can Encore-Tickle walls until they struggle or are wiped out by TTar Pursuit. Broken or not it changed the meta game in a bad way last time, and I don't see much in its favor this gen. Uber.

Mew - I could write 20 pages of viable sets Mew can run off 4th gen moves alone. Every single one of which capable of causing untold havok. There are very few things that can switch in on Mew and win. Even Tyranitar his #1 counter loses against Nasty Plotted Aura Sphere, or Colbur Baton Pass, or Hypnosis, or Scarfed Transform, or Trick, or U-turn, or Will-O-Wisp, or Dual Screens or...

.. :/ Uber.
 
Are these effective now? or when b/w are relased in the states, also is smogon testing now or are they waiting for the release?

I don't see any reason why these shouldn't be effective now considering Smogon doesn't have an official tier list to follow yet. Smogon isn't testing yet as they are waiting for PL to add 5th gen so that testing can happen in the first place. Right now these tiers really only apply to WiFi'ers since they are the only ones which can play to begin with. These tiers will probably be effective for quite some time considering Smogon still has yet to begin testing, and even when they do it will likely take 6 months or more for things to settle down.
 
Does anyone know if Pokemon Online has 5th gen battles yet?

I heard they had a server up for a short period of time though it was removed due to lack of incorporating mechanic changes. I doubt they will have it before PL though since they are backed by Smogon who is likely to figure out all the mechanics before anyone else.
 
Yes and no. They are testing the new mons and mechanics on a private server. They still have a ton of bugs, but they're working on it. Coyote frequents the smogon "new mechanics" thread like every day, so I'm pretty confident he's gonna have it up and running properly asap.
 

ParaChomp

be your own guru
I've always questioned why Wynaut was an uber (it's a lesser Wobufett, let it be). Now that we have the pre-evo stone, it could be more destructive than Wobufett.
 

GolemGuy

Better Than Thou
Has someone shown you the calcs regarding Porygon2 w/ Prevo stone vs. Lugia yet? Essentially, it's even better in the physical department, and nearly as good in the special department.

Besides, from all indications, Stall's gonna be a little weak this gen. Perhaps Lugia will be able to make it more viable.

In addition, have you thought about testing an OU Kyumeru?
 
Cool, so will this replace the current Shoddy when finish?

Yes it will, right now it still lacks an UU ladder (unless its updated since I last checked) and has various small bugs, though in the long run it will replace Shoddy and get 5th gen updates. They stopped updating the first Shoddy for the purpose of creating this to begin with.
 
May I ask why the pony is banned?

As stated in the OP, all unreleased event pokes are banned. They will be unbanned whenever they are released in some kind of event. This includes the Water horse, Meloetta, and possibly Genosekuto if he isn't Uber for other reasons.
 
Deoxys (all forms) - Normal form however should be noted that it has less Attack than Metagross
Metagross - 135
Deoxys - 150

???

I'm all for the banning of all Deoxys forms except Deoxys-D, since with Prevo Stone it'll probably sit on the same level as Porygon2 or Dusclops (except it can Spike).

Note that this comes from someone who has played one match of 5th gen competitive, but I really don't think Deoxys (except -D) will have changed in brokenness much at all. All 3 offensive Deoxys forms can sweep easily late game and lead fantastically, so they're broken imo.
 
Hasty Deoxys has less attack than Adamant Metagross. Not to mention most Deoxys won't run its crappy Psychic STAB.
 
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