Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[Blue Harvest]

But does it matter what Smogon says? Its not like they have and 5th gen Pokemon battles going on, though recently I've started to not like PO's Admin all that much..

I mean in the long term yes, Smogon will take over. But its not like PO testing is completely useless.

 

[James Bondage]

But does it matter what Smogon says? Its not like they have and 5th gen Pokemon battles going on, though recently I've started to not like PO's Admin all that much..

I mean in the long term yes, Smogon will take over. But its not like PO testing is completely useless.

I'm not saying PO is useless. Actually quite the opposite. Alot of the people voting on this are using PO as their main basis on their decissions.

Right now, it is looking like either list #4 or #5 is going to come out on top.

List #5 is slightly in the lead though, and looks like this...

Arceus
Darkrai
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom

and this is list #4...

Arceus
Deoxys-s
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Wobbuffet
Zekrom

I mostly agree with list #5, but I have been messing around a bit, and I am thinking that MAYBE (very big maybe though) that Ho-Oh should be tested. Yes, I kow it can hit from both sides hard, and has a massive SpDef stat, but would it really have time to Recover it's damage before it was taken out in Gen 5?

I supppoes that's a different discussion altogether, but other than maybe Ho-Oh, I am inclined to agree with the what appears to be the majority over at Smogon right now, and say list #5 looks like a great starting point for tiering.

 

[d0nut]

Just for discussions sake I'll post Smogon's various proposed banlists which are currently being voted on and say a few things about them...

Banlist #1
-

Pretty much the "no banlist" approach which was most popular in the public poll held at Smogon. The big issue here is the large amounts of time it would likely take to develop a balanced metagame, and by that time people will grow bored with Smogon's tiering system. While this would probably end up with the most accurate results on what is and isn't broken it just doesn't seem practical in comparison to an initial banlist.

Banlist #2
Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom

This is a pretty solid banlist for starters. Its the same banlist that PO started with, and therefore it is missing Darkrai whom most of us believe is broken. Hopefully if this banlist is chosen they won't waste much time getting rid of Darkrai so they can test more controversial things such as Skymin, the Latis and the Deoxys forms. Past the absence of Darkrai I think its a pretty solid start.

Banlist #3
Arceus
Dialga
Groudon
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza

This takes a minamalist approach and bans as few pokes as possible initially. While they got most of the important things, the absence of Giratina, Ho-oh, Lugia, Reshiram, and Zekrom is somewhat troubling. I doubt any of them could exist in a balanced metagame so starting with them allowed would simply waste more time than using the previous banlist which is pretty much the same as the last one only with the previously mentioned pokes unbanned. Darkrai would also likely end up Uber.

Banlist #4
Arceus
Deoxys-s
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Wobbuffet
Zekrom

The biggest problem people would have with this one is it might be too big. In my experience so far, Deo-S isn't actually that broken so starting out with it banned might not be the best way to go about its tiering. I'm pretty indifferent towards Wobbuffet, but it still wouldn't hurt to go through more testing also. It also worries me that they would include Deo-S while not including Darkrai...

Banlist #5
Arceus
Darkrai
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom

Another fairly solid banlist. Its also the only one which includes Darkrai so it looks like a step in the right direction, though the other key difference between this list and list 2 is the absence of Lugia... I'm not sure why Lugia is so controversial at Smogon but is so clearly seen as Uber by everyone else. Sure things have much higher stats in OU than they used to, but it is still capable of walling everything to hell and back. Even if it were a less effective wall it would be extremely frustrating trying to deal with a CM + Recover/Roost set which would likely be broken for offensive and defensive purposes. Porygon2 is also compared with it frequently for its new and improved defenses from Evo Stone. Imo Pory isn't anywhere near Lugia in terms of usefulness since it has a relatively shallow movepool, pretty much no resistances, (an immunity to Ghost but that doesn't get it very far,) it can't use CM to boost, can't use Leftovers or another item, doesn't have 110 Base Speed, etc.

 

[calze6]

I believe that banlist 2 is best as it keeps all the powerful base 670+ in ubers and can test the others, which have lesser stats in OU which allows to see their individual performance and then decide whether or not to ban them individually. Suspects like mew, deoxys, skymin, wobbuffet, lati@s and darkrai can then be voted on.

 

[Lunanight]

PO has already tested Shaymin-S and Darkrai and they are now UBER

I honestly wanted shaymin-s in OU as it was not That broken

Why darkrai was tested for OU , I will never know?

They are testing All 4 Deoxys Forms, Wobbufett and Manaphy.

Encore got nerfed so Wobbu got nerfed as well since it can not do much with 3 turns.

I have tested wobbufett and Deoxys-A and will be testing Lati@s

 

[d0nut]

PO has already tested Shaymin-S and Darkrai and they are now UBER

I honestly wanted shaymin-s in OU as it was not That broken

Why darkrai was tested for OU , I will never know?

They are testing All 4 Deoxys Forms, Wobbufett and Manaphy.

Encore got nerfed so Wobbu got nerfed as well since it can not do much with 3 turns.

I have tested wobbufett and Deoxys-A and will be testing Lati@s

Things are turning out how I predicted so far tiering-wise (though why I seem to be one of the few here who thinks Skymin is broken is beyond me.) Manaphy seems to be the closest thing to broken in the metagame atm. TG being a +3 boost is overkill, and on top of that it can be paired with Politoed for instant full recovery without drawbacks and total immunity to status. That might be more of a reason to ban Politoed for support, but since the support only really breaks one pokemon I wouldn't be opposed to banning Manaphy. The Deoxys forms are annoying and starting to be used more as leads, though I don't think they are all too broken since Espeon can switch in on them to prevent set up and there are several other leads which can keep them in check fairly well. The attack form is really the only one which gets on my nerves sometimes. Wob only shows up every once in a while, and the Encore nerf really hinders its trapping abilities so it might not be as broken as people think this time around.

 

[Blue Harvest]

I took Ice Dragon off the banned list and cemented Shaymin S as Uber. Mainly because PO tested them and more or less unanimously agreed on their tier placement. Its pointless to disagree as they have done real testing.

Should we just copy PO at this point (barring Wifi changes, like Dream world abilities and non-released event pokes banned).

I think Manaphy will be banned as well soon. Deoxys A might be, Deoxys S may as well.

 

[d0nut]

I took Ice Dragon off the banned list and cemented Shaymin S as Uber. Mainly because PO tested them and more or less unanimously agreed on their tier placement. Its pointless to disagree as they have done real testing.

Should we just copy PO at this point (barring Wifi changes, like Dream world abilities and non-released event pokes banned).

I think Manaphy will be banned as well soon. Deoxys A might be, Deoxys S may as well.

I think we should follow PO banlist for now unless they make some completely retarded change that no one here agrees with. Ice/Drag getting removed is a plus considering how badly it seems to suck in this metagame anyways (its also only ranked #96 in usage on DW and #93 on Wifi.) I'm glad that Skymin won't be coming back either (provided Smogon doesn't think otherwise and we end up following them) since the thing is broken even by these metagames standards. Hopefully they ban Manaphy soon and hopefully they don't end up resetting the ladder again because they did it like 5 times in one month last time which was annoying. Deoxys-A and S are both pretty annoying though S actually seems to be more manageable since Espeon can switch in on its Taunt/SR/Spikes and lol at it, and Borutorosu/Erufuun leads can also Taunt it easily. Attack form is a bit harder to deal with since it can destroy teams which lack priority without too much trouble. Even some priority users such as Breloom have problems with Attack form since they don't always have the bulk to survive an ES. I can see Deo-A being banned and maybe S if enough people hate it.

 

[A.J.]

My observations from the Dream World tier:

I've been seeing Manaphy a lot, especially on Politoed teams because of Hydration. It becomes insanely powerful insanely quickly. I'd say that Manaphy should go to Ubers because a Hydration Vaporeon can do essentially the same thing using Fake Tears (which I have only seen twice). Manaphy has a much better role on Kyogre teams, much like it did in 4th gen.

Sun teams are over-rated. Easily taken advantage of by a Shandera with Hidden Power ground.

I see Ditto more than anything, mainly because of Eccentric (I use one as a lead). There are lots of "mexican stand-offs" between Ditto leads. However, Ditto is swiftly taken care of by pretty much any counter - especially if it switches in on an Illusioned Zoroark.

Wobbuffet has in fact been nerfed (it doesn't matter to me, I use the in-game set anyway), so I haven't seen it at all. People are always surprised when the Wobb comes out on my side, and I get ridiculed and rage-quitted on because they think it's uber. The distribution of Shadow Tag really kicks the Wobb out of the Uber tier IMO, but it's still a threat. I especially like mexican stand-offs between Wobbuffets.

So...

Uber Manaphy, OU Ditto, OU Wobbuffet.

 

[calze6]

Follow either PO's or smogon's list for now as they would be the most reliable having tested it. However should they do something crazy (like ditto uber lol), then we can change it. We, ourselves can start testing and then see for ourselves.

Also, with manaphy, I reckon the most popular set would probs be tail glow wacan and three attacks as it can get a great sweep real early (especially with para support).

For wobbuffet, I have felt that while encore nerf seems to be huge, now it can still remain to use destiny custap real well as 3 turn encore is enough and safeguard and tickle wobb won't be use much anymore anyway.

 

[d0nut]

The most discussed suspect at Smogon seems to be Octillery at this point, or more specifically the ability Inconsistent. While its obvious that Oct isn't broken himself, his ability is quite rediculous. Even with Darkrai and Skymin running around everywhere it is odd that Octillery manages to steal the spotlight, but if you have been playing at all recently then you have probably faced an Octillery, if not some other Inconsistent user. It makes the game completely luck based and often times by spaming Protect + Sub Octillery can get several Evasion or Defense boosts which makes it very hard to take down. It also doesn't help that every stat boosted is increased by 2 stages, while lowered stats are only decreased by 1, this makes it possible for it to get +4 stats across the board with ease. While I didn't at first support the banning of abilities, I do think an exception should be made with Inconsistent, as the luck it brings to the game can be compared to why we created the OHKO and Evasion Clauses. Sure, we could just ban Smeargle, Glalie, Bibarel, Octillery, and all their prevos (they are hardly used anyways,) but it just seems more simple to ban the ability itself since it is the only thing which makes all of them arguably broken. There are actually a few ways to counter the ability such as Haze, Clear Smog, phazing, (though Roar/Whirlwind can miss if it has Evasion boosts and Dragon Tail doesn't work though Subs,) and to a degree weather, however countering really doesn't/shouldn't hold much weight in tiering any more. I support the idea that we should ban Inconsistent, and if need be the individual pokemon which have the ability. Its frustrating to lose to Octillery, and even if you don't lose to it you still have a chance of losing one or more pokes trying to take it down.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Maybe I'm alone on this but when I tested inconsistent I found them to be utterly underwhelming. For every one game they swept 9 other times they just subbed a few times then died because it didn't get the right boosts or they didn't make a difference.

I used my team with Toxic Spikes, though I didn't test too extensively.

I also played against them several times. Keep in mind until they get a speed boost or two they aren't completely overwhelming. "Emergency banning" barely 3 days after a Pokemon's set is discovered is ridiculous. lol, Unaware Bibarel counters Inconsistent Pokes.

 

[d0nut]

Well since it is luck based you can expect everyone to have different results. The fact that people can win based on total luck without any skill or prediction though is still reason enough to ban it imo. I believe they are already discussing an emergency ban of the ability, and while it may seem a bit sudden, you have to consider that it is just banning another unneccesary luck factor which only makes ladder ranks more accurate in a way since people who rely on Octillery to beat better players won't be depriving the better players of their rank, nor will they be climbing higher than they should be. Also Bibarel isn't the greatest counter to Inconsistent pokes. They usually carry Toxic along with Sub + Protect so it would likely just get stalled, though I suppose if Bibarel had Sub it might work, but then again why not use Quagsire since it also has Unaware and can actually do some good.

 

[calze6]

I HATE INCONSISTENT!!!!!!!!!

I've been beaten in UBERS (by theorymon) with glaile. Having a chance to boost evasion totally makes it broken for stall teams especially with toxic spikes. Although, there is a bit of luck involved upon where the boosts and drops go.

Protect + Sub + Inconsistent = ARRRRRRRRRRGH!

 

[Blue Harvest]

I'm going to continue laughing at Inconsistent until it becomes more common than one in 70 battles for Octillery and one in 200 for Glalie / Bibarel. If its good as opposed to just annoying it should be more common than Hitmonlee right? In my experience using and playing against Inconsistent its not a huge threat and unless they're REALLY lucky its just going to be a dead weight Pokemon. Its just a fad on Smogon, sort of like Assist teams were.

Smogon likes to make suspect threads for everything so don't associate "suspect" with broken immediately. Some 5th gen things that have been nominated for suspect include sleep moves, critical hits and even lol, Rankurusu. Doesn't make them broken, just means someone's *****ing.

 

[Eon Master]

I don't really have a lot to contribute, seeing as most of the stuff I would've done has been done already and I'm on the fence with much of the rest, but it's still something.

Mew needs to stay banned (since it's highlighted in orange now). When a Pokemon can run any TM Move / Move Tutor move and any move from previous generations that's no longer obtainable, especially with Mew's statbase, it's a little broken IMO. This is mainly because it becomes so hard to predict, and it can set up its moves in a way so that it can become anti-metagame.

Mew can run a set with any setup move that TM's allow you to teach it, not to mention Amnesia, Nasty Plot, and Barrier. It can also Baton Pass any of those boosts, OR use them to sweep. Hell, it could even try doing both with something like NP / Baton Pass / Psycho Shock / Flamethrower or Aura Sphere or something. Baton Pass also allows it to escape from Wobbufett or Arena Trap users not mentioning Shandera with ease, and then switch to an appropriate counter.

^ That's all for just one set, and it doesn't even cover everything that Mew can potentially accomplish with that set alone. Trying to get a decent register of all of Mew's potential sets is so difficult as to become impractical.

Now, for its stats. Hm... Base 100 everything means that it can function as either a tank or a sweeper, and just about anything in between. Now, most Pokemon like that in OU that have one or two limitations that make them OU, mostly in the form of limited movepools and bad typing for either offense or defense. Mew has only one of those characteristics, the typing. It's movepool is almost limitless, meaning that it's so much harder to predict and bring in an accurate counter until you've already scouted its set. And even then, how are you going to account for everything a Mew could use?

In Ubers, Mew isn't broken because its stats are weaker than most anything else in the metagame. In OU? Not even close, Mew's stats are top-tier in OU, even for 5th Gen.

I think that's enough for now, I'll be back later to support my points if need be.

 

[Ragnarok]

So what's everyone's opinion on people nominating Rankurusu for suspect? I'm not impressed, to be honest.

 

[d0nut]

I've been using Rank since the beginning of this gen so I have quite a bit of experience with it. Its amazing how it is receiving numerous nominations at Smogon, but I still doubt enough people will vote for it (Dory got a ton of noms last time but a vast majority voted OU.) As for Rankurusu itself, it is a great pokemon. It is very difficult to take down, and there are only a handful of things which are strong enough to OHKO it, plus it can use Recover to make itself even more annoying. Magic Guard makes status moves worthless against it and lets it destroy most stall teams out there. It hits very hard and has a good offensive movepool, plus it can win nearly every CM war due to Psycho Shock (if it uses it.) It is hands down the best user of TR since it can both set it up and abuse it better than almost anything else. TR is actually pretty good for handling weather teams since their sweepers rely heavily on their speed boosting abilities (or they are naturally fast such as Manaphy, Chomp, Landlos, etc.) It is definately a great pokemon and its potential is finally being realized for it to be a top tier OU, though I seriously doubt it will make Uber.

 

[streetlightdsb]

I can't say I've used it, but I've fought against it a lot and it's really damn good. It's redundant explaining why now as d0nut got there first lol. However, I find that it's one of the Pokemon that you have to take into account for and must have a decent answer to otherwise it will crush you.

Having said that I don't think it's Uber, just powerful; a top tier OU. Nice to see a pure Psychic type being brilliant in OU as well what with the general "lolpsychictype" mindset of Gen IV.

And it's only a few nominations, there aren't mass outcrys/arguments within the community about how broken it is, if at all.

 

[d0nut]

I can't say I've used it, but I've fought against it a lot and it's really damn good. It's redundant explaining why now as d0nut got there first lol. However, I find that it's one of the Pokemon that you have to take into account for and must have a decent answer to otherwise it will crush you.

Having said that I don't think it's Uber, just powerful; a top tier OU. Nice to see a pure Psychic type being brilliant in OU as well what with the general "lolpsychictype" mindset of Gen IV.

And it's only a few nominations, there aren't mass outcrys/arguments within the community about how broken it is, if at all.

I agree that its nice to see that a psychic type is considered by many to be one of, if not the best pokemon in the metagame. Especially Rank since I like it so much, but still, the number of nominations it is getting is only increasing. At this point you can be sure it will be voted on as many users have provided valid reasons for a vote, though I still don't think it will be Uber this round but I could be wrong.