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Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Ragnarok
- Start date
- Status
Shallow move-pool with poor coverage, Ice typing, and low Speed. Nonetheless, I think the guys at Smogon have officially lost all of their sanity.
That's not a fair statement. Pokemon-Online's tiering guild (w/e the hell it's called) deemed Kyurem-B an OU pokemon about 3-4 months ago (approximately one month before Smogon Suspect Tested Garchomp). If anything, Smogon is slacking in identifying unsuitable Ubers.
Furthermore, your statement about Smogon losing all their sanity is just overstatement. Kyurem-B sucks in OU, even with its buffed stats. I've played on PO's server for the majority of the summer (which was around the time Kyu was released into PO OU). All I can say is that it made no impact whatsoever to their metagame (which was devoid of Garchomp back then). Check their usage stats. It sits down near the 70~80 mark in usage, and its Normal forme does better than him.
Ok, great news. The Lax Victini was a false alarm, so it is confirmed that you can have a Victini with any nature. This means that Bolt Strike CB Victini is a thing now. Just one more hurdle left to jump...
Ain't it the truth.
Ain't it the truth.
with the upgraded movepool, does anyone think victini will possibly go to ou? it now outclasses darmanitan(i guess) as it now can use a decent mixed set of scarf, bolt strike, v-create, u-turn, glaciate, to get past one of its main uu counters- eviolite gligar. it also has perfect coverage, bar rotom-h and lanturn. any ideas? victini just got a major boost.
I wouldn't say a major boost, but the step up from Fusion Bolt to Bolt Strike is definitely nice since it can get some OHKO some more Pokemon. Glaciate is near useless. It's weaker than Hidden Power Ice. Furthermore, in terms of Victini, it never uses Ice moves in its coverage sets and rarely does anyone use a Specially oriented Victini.
Interestingly enough, a NVE V-Create in the Sun is stronger than a SE Fusion Bolt, but a SE Bolt Strike is considerably stronger. In fact, a CB Victini has a shot at OHKOing 248/216+ Jellicent with Bolt Strike (guaranteed after SR), something it could never do before (even with SR). That's certainly a plus.
EDIT: In a stunning turn of events (okay not really, kinda saw this coming), Genesect has been banned from OU. Although I was sorta on the fence about it, it is a relief to see it go. Having to deal with a sweeper with insane coverage and the ability to get to +1 SpA/+2 Spe in one turn was hard enough, but then having to answer to the ever common momentum stealing Scarf set, as well as the occasional Band, Specs, and Expert Belt sets, all-in-all was just too much of a hassle regarding team building. Don't think for a second that this will balance the metagame out, though. Rain was still extremely prevalent during the suspect metagame, and I think it's only a matter of time before Drizzle or Tornadus-T get suspected.
EDIT: In a stunning turn of events (okay not really, kinda saw this coming), Genesect has been banned from OU. Although I was sorta on the fence about it, it is a relief to see it go. Having to deal with a sweeper with insane coverage and the ability to get to +1 SpA/+2 Spe in one turn was hard enough, but then having to answer to the ever common momentum stealing Scarf set, as well as the occasional Band, Specs, and Expert Belt sets, all-in-all was just too much of a hassle regarding team building. Don't think for a second that this will balance the metagame out, though. Rain was still extremely prevalent during the suspect metagame, and I think it's only a matter of time before Drizzle or Tornadus-T get suspected.
Ðew™
Definition of insanity
I love disappearing for a few days and then coming back to see genesect banned ♥
Anyways...usage stats time.
Nothing spectacular sadly, but here they are anyways.
Abomasnow down to UU from OU
Absol up to RU from NU
Cinccino up to RU from NU
Roselia down to NU from RU
Stoutland down to NU from RU
Only comment here is that snow warning aboma may be unbanned come the next tier change...and poor stoutland
Up to NU from PU: Electabuzz, Electrode, Marowak, Liepard, Tangela, Eelektross, Ditto, Seismitoad, Zangoose
Down to PU from NU: Rapidash, Kangaskhan, Camerupt, Torterra
Again, meh.
Anyways...usage stats time.
Nothing spectacular sadly, but here they are anyways.
Abomasnow down to UU from OU
Absol up to RU from NU
Cinccino up to RU from NU
Roselia down to NU from RU
Stoutland down to NU from RU
Only comment here is that snow warning aboma may be unbanned come the next tier change...and poor stoutland
Up to NU from PU: Electabuzz, Electrode, Marowak, Liepard, Tangela, Eelektross, Ditto, Seismitoad, Zangoose
Down to PU from NU: Rapidash, Kangaskhan, Camerupt, Torterra
Again, meh.
Don't forget, the tiers haven't changed just yet. Those are just the speculations for next month based on the usage stats of this month. Of course, NU was supposed to get Roselia during the last tier shift, so maybe it'll actually happen this time.
There's also the fact that, depending on how the suspect testing goes in UU and RU, the next tier shift might actually be put off till February.
As for Abomasnow dropping to UU, Snow Warning has been recently unbanned in UU. There is still some discussion as to whether or not they want to unban it in the lower tiers as well (and I personally think they should give it a shot), but if Abomasnow drops, it'll be legal with Snow Warning.
There's also the fact that, depending on how the suspect testing goes in UU and RU, the next tier shift might actually be put off till February.
As for Abomasnow dropping to UU, Snow Warning has been recently unbanned in UU. There is still some discussion as to whether or not they want to unban it in the lower tiers as well (and I personally think they should give it a shot), but if Abomasnow drops, it'll be legal with Snow Warning.
Aura Flare Riolu
Cutest Riolu around!
Deoxys event with Dark Pulse and Nasty Plot.
About time it got Dark Pulse...And Nasty Plot to boot.
About time it got Dark Pulse...And Nasty Plot to boot.
I could not disagree with you more (thats directed to your whole post). Ubers is not relevant at all when it comes to tiering. It's all about the standard/ou environment. And Kyurem-B should've never been send back to OU for the reasons that I'm going to explain to you in this post. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to attack you in person even tho it sometimes may seem like this. I'm just really dedicated to banning Kyurem-B again c:
Stats
Kyurem-B can achieve near pefect coverage due to its physical and special movepool. People only see the 170 base attack stat but that's not all that Kyurem-B is offering. It has a 'nice' special attack stat as well. And by nice I mean that it has the same base stat of lets say Arceus. Talking about Arceus, Kyurem-B has the 2nd highest total base stats in the entire game, only coming second to the lord himself.
Counter
I couldn't care more less if Kyurem-B did not have an impressive movepool as well, but it does. And because of it, it has only ONE true and reliable counter. That is Ferrothorn. Furthermore it has the highest attack stat in OU combined with the most powerful attack move there is: Outrage (Close Combat is 2nd).
So enough about the stats, movepool and the lack of switch-ins/counters, lets talk about Kyurem-B in action.
Priority moves
Kyurem-B is weak to priority moves: yup, too bad nobody can actually OHKO him. I'll show some calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 324-384 (82.86 - 98.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 324-384 (82.86 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flame Orb Conkeldurr (Guts) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 228-270 (58.31 - 69.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Kyurem-B 2hko's every single last one of them, so that does not make them a counter.
Stealth Rock
But it has a weakness to stealth rock? Yes it does, but so does Ho-oh. SR is not and should never be a valid tiering argument. Rapid Spin exists for a reason. And the addition of Magic Bounce pokemon also adds to the fact that it is never a given that SR will be on the field. You could also give Kyurem-B roost if you're really that desperate (altho that would be dumb).
Impact on the metagame
I can judge by your post that you use offensive teams. And to be honest I agree with you on the usage part. To quote PO: Kyurem-B (2.91 %). It's on the 58th spot. So yes, Kyurem-B lacks against (hyper)offensive teams (which dominate atm). So I understand that you plea that it has made no impact. But, there is a but: it does have made a HUGE impact on the metagame itself. Why? I tell you why. Bulky teams and stall teams have lost their ground partly thanks to Kyurem-B (the others being Terrakion, Volcarona, Tornadus-T and the now banned Genesect). Adding Kyurem-B is a death sentence to bulky/stall teams because Kyurem-B has only ONE counter. Even Skarmory can not wall Kyurem-B. And if that doesn't impress you, then I would not know what does. The addition of Kyurem-B has lead to the fact that (hyper) offense is the only way to be victorious in this broken metagame.
But then I ask you this, why would we even let Kyurem-B back to OU when it does not have an 'impact' at all when you're facing (hyper)offense, but it utterly destroys the usability of bulky/stall teams? Kyurem-B does not 'add' anything to the metagame, it only removes things. And by this the diversity of the metagame will narrow, which is never a good thing IMO. So they should ban Kyurem-B again for the sake of diversity.
End rant
So I hope that you understand why I disagree with you. And that unbanning Kyurem-B is a foolhardy decision that has only been done in the light of offensive teams.
The concept of "counter everything" died a long time ago. Several Pokemon in OU don't have any counters, so the fact that Kyurem-B has any counters in OU (and you can actually add Forretress to that list, since Kyurem-B without HP Fire can't even guarantee a 3HKO) is actually an argument against its ban. OU today is all about checks, not counters. As long as you can keep something in check, that's usually all you can ask for.
Not to mention that having STAB Outrage isn't exactly a great advantage. Outrage is one of the worst moves in the metagame right now. Unless you're positive that you're at the point where you can sweep with it, using Outrage will put your Dragon at the risk of being killed right after since you can't switch out. If you try to run Dragon Claw to make up for that, then you're using a pretty weak STAB move. In fact, Adamant Kyurem-B's Outrage is significantly weaker than Jolly Terrakion's Close Combat, just to illustrate the power difference.
Looks to me like Scizor and Breloom can guarantee a OHKO after Stealth Rock. I'd say that makes them both excellent checks, so yes, Kyurem-B does get destroyed by the most common priority in OU.
Just because it's possible to remove Stealth Rock doesn't make it a non-issue. You can argue spinners, but then I can argue spin blockers. You can argue Magic Bounce users, but then I can argue Pokemon like Terrakion who can set up Stealth Rock and scare Espeon and Xatu from switching in. And Roost isn't a dumb option, lol. It's one of the better and more common moves on Kyurem-B, especially taking into account Kyurem-B combination of offense and bulk.
Kyurem-B has had very little impact on the metagame at all. This entire argument seemed to based on the premise that stall was a great playstyle before its introduction. It wasn't. Pokemon like Terrakion, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo have done more damage to the usage of stall than Kyurem-B by a long shot. Kyurem-B hasn't even been used much at all since its drop, sitting at a low 5% usage during the last month. I don't think I've ever seen an Uber fall to OU and get such low usage immediately after its drop. Balanced and offense playstyles have been the primary team archetypes for a very long time, long before Kyurem-B was even a thing, and that hasn't changed. Considering that the best counter to Kyurem-B is also the most common stall Pokemon in the entire metagame, it's unlikely that Kyurem-B was such a huge hindrance to stall.
Kyurem-B was unbanned because there's no reason to ban what isn't broken. When Kyurem-B's forms were released, they were instantly sent to Ubers for fear of what they could do, but we never game them a chance. Enough people made an argument to test it, and so we did. After many OU players spent a few weeks testing Kyurem-B, they voted overwhelmingly to unban Kyurem-B (about 69% unban with only about 26% ban).
But where exactly is the evidence that Kyurem-B is making any significant negative impact on diversity? November was Kyurem-B's first full month in OU, and during that time period there were 55 Pokemon over the OU usage cutoff. The month before, there were also 55 Pokemon over the usage cutoff. Going a little further down, there were 69 Pokemon over 2% usage (at least one in every 50 teams) in November, while in October there were only 66. I'm not really seeing anything from the stats that would indicate the Kyurem-B is hurting the usage of anything. Not like Genesect, which was proven to have crippled the usage of Pokemon like Tornadus-T and Keldeo when we tried a suspect test with a Genesect-free OU and the aforementioned Pokemon jumped to the top of the usage stats.
Sadly it is. I don't know about you, but a metagame where even Garchomp is suitable (even Rough Skin) is a metagame where that we all should revise and rethink if things may not have gone out of hand at some point.
But you are right about Forretress, thanks for that one. Altho its too bad that I'd have to waste a moveslot just so I can fit in Gyroball. But I do whatever it takes to adapt.
Outrage is THE MOST powerful move in the entire game. Coming off the highest attack stat in OU and getting STAB is just too good to whisk away that easily.
But I like your comparison, maybe you could've seen from my post but I guess you didn't. So I'll tell you that I'm not a big fan of Terakion in OU. Yes Terrakion wrecks and it has the 2nd most powerful move in the entire game in its arsenal. I also figured out that you love Terakion so I understand that you don't want to see it banned, but Terakion has no real OU viable counters. Gliscor is more of a check when you look to the fact that a Swords Dance after a switch in is unstoppable so Gliscor does not qualify. However it is a decent check.
I never said that they weren't checks. And yes they are decent checks for Kyurem-B can't argue with that.
Yes SR is not a non-issue but I have the feeling that people always assume that SR will be on the field when facing a pokemon. And I would've agreed with you if it was a given but it isn't. So the argument of SR should be used in proportion.
And spinblockers are as good as non-existant. The only reliable blocker there is in OU is Jellicent and Jellicent will lose to one of the most common spinners aka Starmie. Spinning is so much easier now then it was back in gen 4. But we could go on and on forever on SR. And I believe that SR is overrated as a defence mechanism against pokemon.
And no, Roost is really dumb on Kyurem-B. It trades in too much coverage for an healing move. It’s stats are reasonable, they seem bulky. But Ice is such an awful defensive typing, Dragon typing is reasonable but unfortunately and ironically weak to Dragon so that’s not an ideal defensive typing either.
This is the part where I may have been unclear due to my focus on Kyurem-B. I was ranting about the foolish decision because Kyurem-B is literally the icing on the cake when it comes to killing stall or even bulky playstyles in the current metagame.
Yes Terrakion and Tornadus-T have killed stall for sure. I've already explained a little bit about Terrakion but I don't want to go FLAME ON in that case. Tornadus-T has none due to the fact of its sheer power combined with confusion damage that could kill of a specially defensive Jirachi for instance (yes I'm speaking from experience :c).
Volcarona is also right up this alley since she has counters depending on the movesets/hidden power. Which basically means that she has no counters since that sentence was contradictive.
I'm not sure about Keldeo since it has counters and isn't as overpowered as the rest. But I agree with you that Secret Sword (and Psyshock) have put a nice dent into stall teams.
I agree with you that everyone should've been given a chance, I just don't agree with the final decision. That it was voted overwhelmingly does not change the fact that it is a decision that was not been thought through properly.
As I explained earlier, Kyurem-B is the icing on the cake. A broken cake for that matter. The stats of November are irrelevant since stall was long gone thanks to Terrakion&Co. So by diversity I meant that stall is not viable anymore thanks to all these overpowered pokemon. Bringing back Kyurem-B was just a kick when you're already done.
IMO Kyurem-B does not add any surplus value to this metagame, but it almost makes 100% sure that stall is not viable anymore. Stall is a part of the diversity of teams, and when its gone, so is the diversity. That's why I wondered why you would add a pokemon who doesn't have an impact on offensive teams while it murders the already dead stall teams of this competitive environment.
My point is that this metagame was already broken, and they should not have even tested Kyurem-B in OU as long as Terrakion, Torn-T and Volcarona are around.
The worst thing is tho, I know for sure that Kyurem-B will not be banned again as long as this generation lasts since the tiering council is just too proud to agree that they have made a mistake, let alone that they even see that keeping these OP pokemon isn't right. In the end, I still lose.
We can't always approach 5th Gen bans with a 4th Gen mindset. I've heard plenty of people say that some Pokemon like Volcarona, Dragonite, Terrakion, etc. should be banned for the same criteria that we banned Pokemon in 4th Gen, but we also have to deal with the fact that the power creep we see now is the 5th Gen metagame. In order to lower the power level to what it was before, we'd have to go overboard with bans left and right. However, unless one of those Pokemon actually breaks the metagame, there's little reason to ban it. Like Kyurem-B, Garchomp went through a suspect test and it was decided that it was not broken. Does it still have few counters? Yes, but without Sand Veil to hax wins, very few people actually found it to easily sweep through teams like it used to.
There are plenty of moves just as powerful as Outrage, such as Close Combat, Fire Blast, Hurricane, Thunder, Blizzard, Hydro Pump, Solarbeam, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Focus Blast, Power Whip, Superpower, and Megahorn, and several moves even more powerful like Hi Jump Kick, Draco Meteor, Overheat, V-Create, Bolt Strike, Blue Flare, Psycho Boost, Leaf Storm, Focus Punch, Explosion, and Eruption. Now, you could make an argument for the fact that Kyurem-B's Atk stat is so massive, but Victini's V-Create hits harder than Kyurem-B's Outrage even before Sun is taken into account. If Sun is up, it's not even close.
It's true that I love Terrakion, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't want it banned. Blaziken is by far my favorite Pokemon, yet I was one of the biggest proponents for its ban. I would be perfectly fine with banning Terrakion if it were broken, but there's a reason that Terrakion has never been suspected even once: most of the metagame checks it. Last time I counted, somewhere around 45 or more of the 55 Pokemon in OU hit Terrakion super effectively with at least one move they commonly carry. Terrakion's many weaknesses mean that it's often reliant on forcing switches just to get a safe setup, and if you mispredict and the opponent doesn't switch out (or if you mispredict and choose the wrong coverage move), then you might very well lose your Terrakion. Like Kyurem-B, it's also weak to the most common priority attacks in OU, so even the Rock Polish variant (which outspeeds every Scarfer within reason) is at risk.
The reason people use SR as an argument is that it's the single most influential move in the game, and it's very much a commonplace in OU. Few teams in OU don't carry it somewhere, and so you're almost always going to be at risk of SR. It's not quite like saying "Pokemon X dies to Z attack after SR and 3 layers of Spikes", but instead you're talking about a very common factor in OU battles. With something so insanely common, coupled by the fact that you won't always be able to spin before bringing Kyurem-B in, you should really take it into account with things like this.
Specially defensive Jellicent (currently the most common variant) avoids a 2HKO from everything Starmie commonly carries besides a LO Thunder. The only spinner I can think of that beats Jellicent pretty easily is SubToxic Tentacruel. SubDisable Gengar can also take on all spinners besides Starmie (and the occasional spinning Cloyster) as long as you predict properly. In fact, it's pretty much the most common spin blocker used with Deoxys-D due to the offensive nature of it.
Roost is one of the main moves that Kyurem was looking forward to in BW2, and it's great for it. Kyurem-B's 125/100/90 are amazing for an offensive Pokemon, and even great for a defensive Pokemon. While its weaknesses are enough to make it extremely easy to keep in check, it also has several good resistances to Water, Grass, and Electric attacks. This gives it plenty of opportunities to switch in and get at least one turn to heal up, recovering off SR, Spikes, Life Orb, or whatever other damage. It also works well with Substitute for stalling out certain would-be threats (although Kyurem pulls this off somewhat better due to pressure).
It's not like that moveslot is needed for much else. Fusion Bolt synergizes extremely well with your Dragon STAB and covers almost everything of note, as do Earth Power, Focus Blast, and HP Fire. Even if you wanted to run an Ice STAB alongside that, there's still a free moveslot that can be used for Roost.
I'd argue, though, that Kyurem-B didn't have any effect whatsoever in the usage of stall. As I mentioned earlier, the most common bulky wall Pokemon in OU is Ferrothorn, who gets more usage than the entire stall playstyle itself. There are also Pokemon like Forretress and certain variants of Jirachi that can keep Kyurem-B in check (or maybe even fully counter it) and fit perfectly well on stall teams. Stall naturally has to deal with Dragons, and almost every Pokemon that could be used to beat other Dragons can be used against Kyurem-B.
To be fair, you'd have to have really terrible luck for your specially defensive Jirachi to lose to a Tornadus-T due to Confusion hax. LO Hurricane can't even scratch 25% damage, which is a 6HKO at best factoring in Leftovers.
SubCM Keldeo is one of the most dangerous new threats to stall teams out there. Even Amoonguss, one of the most solid answers to Keldeo out there, has to run a bit of SpA investment to guarantee that it'll beat SubCM Keldeo.
Kyurem-B went through an entire suspect process just like any other suspect with hundreds of players participating and many gaining the voting requirements. This wasn't just a decision made over IRC. It involved weeks of discussion and gameplay experience before the decision was made. It's hard to say that a decision wasn't thought out properly when it was put through such an extensive process, and to make matters worse, the vote wasn't even close.
Well, if that's the case, then it isn't Kyurem-B that has damaged the metagame. In fact, we can't really tell just how Kyurem-B has affected stall because of the surplus of threats to stall already existent in OU. For all we know, if you were to remove Pokemon like Terrakion and Keldeo, stall might flourish regardless of Kyurem-B's existence.
One thing I need to clarify is that I don't think stall is completely unviable. Several users have made decent stall teams even after BW2, but it's just difficult enough that it's not really worth the trouble for many players.
But this does bring up another question: where in the ban policy does it state that we should go for a metagame where all playstyles are equally viable? We ban what is broken and unban what isn't, and if the offensive metagame that we're in now is such that these threats to stall do not break the metagame in general then we do not ban them. BW2 OU is offensive-based just like GSC OU was stall-based, and it's just something you have to get used to.
The OU council didn't have much of anything to do with this one. By the time Kyurem-B's suspect test came back around, Smogon had gone back to the full suspect tests with community voting and everything. Even if they did, it's not like Smogon is a stranger to revisiting suspects. Excadrill, Thundurus, and Deoxys-S were all suspected at the same time as Blaziken, but they were all voted "not broken". They were later suspected again and banned. RU is also doing another suspect test for Nidoqueen and Cresselia, both of which were recently voted "not broken". If Kyurem-B starts becoming a problem, you can be sure that they'll visit it as a suspect again.
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