Official Serebii 6th Gen Singles Tier Lists & Standard Rules

[Clone™]

Haze Quagsire is and always was utter crap and was nothing more than a terrible gimmick. It was used on full stall teams to stop set up sweepers (as KD stated already). Nowadays full stall isn't good in the meta anymore, and being as passive as Quaggy is just doesn't cut it. People went for other options such as Mew or Cresselia to stop set up sweepers, or sometimes even Clefable as Clefable actually packs some offensive presence.

 

[Ace Trainer Riana]

So there have been talks of banning Thundurus, but I think such a move would allow the game to be wrecked by setup sweepers. Yes Sableye is a thing, but paralysis is better than burn

 

[KillerDraco]

So there have been talks of banning Thundurus, but I think such a move would allow the game to be wrecked by setup sweepers. Yes Sableye is a thing, but paralysis is better than burn

...Not really. Thundurus was banned last generation, and all it meant was that Revenge killing becomes more necessary. You've still got things like ScarfChomp, Talonflame, etc., so it's not like Thundurus is the only thing that can stop setup sweepers from... well, sweeping. Thundurus is just a very mindless "panic button", and even if it's going to be KO'ed, it can leave a parting gift in the form of Prankster Thunder Wave to screw most would-be checks/counters. And that's in addition to its respectable offensive presence as well. I'm not outright saying Thundurus should or shouldn't be banned, but I don't think banning it would have an overall negative affect on the metagame.

 

[Ace Trainer Riana]

Since most Talonflames are Adamant, Thundurus can usually paralyze it before it can Brave Bird.

 

[KillerDraco]

Since most Talonflames are Adamant, Thundurus can usually paralyze it before it can Brave Bird.

...That literally has nothing to do with what I just said.

I cited Talonflame as an example of a revenge killer to stop (most) sweepers in the event of a Thundurus ban. Most Talonflame are going to switch out unless Thundurus is heavily weakened anyway, since it resist Brave Bird and a choice Band set only 2HKOs, while a Thunderbolt is a clean 1HKO.

The underlying point is, there's plenty to keep setup sweepers in check outside of Thundurus.

 

[Lord Fighting]

KD, did you post the ubers statistics in terms of most Pokemon used in the tier back when you did all the other tiers? I can't remember if you did or not because I'm curious as to who the most used in that tier are. If not may I ask you to do please.

Also, did gengarite get banned from ubers then?

 

[Clone™]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ubers-gengarite-suspect-voting.3516477/

these links hold everything you need to know.

 

[KillerDraco]

Well, I know we had a little bit of downtime, but over the weekend, the long awaited (and highly delayed) vote was made!

Gengarite will NOT be banned from Ubers! Though there may be a suspect test of Shadow Tag itself rather than Gengarite to come.

Discuss.

 

[Psynergy]

I'd heard about the unofficial vote on Gengarite being No Ban before, but it's good to know they finally got the official decision out. I really didn't agree with the notion of banning Gengarite itself, so I'm glad the vote turned out the way it did. If they're going to ban anything, it should be Shadow Tag as a whole since that's worth a look since it's definitely the ability that makes Mega Gengar so good at what it does. Even Gothitelle of all things is A- in viability just because of what Shadow Tag can do for it, such as setting up Calm Minds against PALKIA. While it would still mean Mega Gengar is gone, I'd much rather it be on the basis of "Shadow Tag is bad for the tier" rather than just "Mega Gengar is bad for the tier."

 

[Clone™]

This post will probably make very little to no sense but here it is anyways.

I'm going for reqs this time around with the tag suspect. I'm voting no ban. The reason is because Gengar was found competitive, and banning tag means banning a mon after he was found fine for the meta. Banning tag means no Gengar, which completely invalidates the previous test. Idc if some of the reasoning for no ban was because people thought that tag as a whole should've been banned. This is double jeopardy and it's not like the talk of a Keldeo suspect late gen 5 after he was previously suspected because at least then there was a lot of time in between for the meta to change. The Ubers meta hasn't changed. There's no need to do a tag suspect as a whole. A goth or wobb suspect would've been the much better option.

Hopefully that made sense.

 

[Psynergy]

Hopefully that made sense.

It does make sense, and I think it's a very valid point. Personally I'd rather not have Mega Gengar be banned from Ubers at all, but I'd be more okay with it being banned on the basis of a Shadow Tag ban rather than just Mega Gengar itself. I'd rather not have this suspect test at all right now, but I'm not going to argue against the decision to test it.

 

[Ace Trainer Riana]

Well a Shadow Tag team can be deadly. Wobbuffet can encore a pokemon into a status move and then Gothitelle can come in and trick lock it. Not to mention Perish song

 

[Eliteknight]

Well a Shadow Tag team can be deadly. Wobbuffet can encore a pokemon into a status move and then Gothitelle can come in and trick lock it. Not to mention Perish song

Yes but in doing so both wobbuffet and goth are crippled due to the status and without the specs/scarf goth will have lost part of its power/speed which allows it to properly revenge kill

 

[Ace Trainer Riana]

Status moves include: Stealth Rock, Dragon Dance, etc. Not exactly crippling.

 

[Astral Shadow]

Status moves include: Stealth Rock, Dragon Dance, etc. Not exactly crippling.

Those are not status moves. The category they belong in is Other.

Anyway, I don't see a point in testing Shadow Tag specifically now if Mega Gengar was voted no ban. It seemed to be the only real good abuser of it(though Gothitelle and Wobbuffet could use it well enough).

 

[The Imposter]

Those are not status moves. The category they belong in is Other.

Anyway, I don't see a point in testing Shadow Tag specifically now if Mega Gengar was voted no ban. It seemed to be the only real good abuser of it(though Gothitelle and Wobbuffet could use it well enough).

Some top Ubers players actually believe that Gothitelle is a better abuser of Shadow Tag than Mega Gengar, as lacks the crucial Mega Evo turn that Gengar has and is better able to capitalize on the number of support Pokemon in Ubers.

As far as I can see, the main pro argument here is that Gengarite is not broken on its own - rather, Shadow Tag itself is being deemed uncompetitive in a tier full of both bulky Pokemon with little offensive presence and deadly sweepers who need only a single turn to wreak havoc. I'm personally pro-ban in this case because Shadow Tag in Ubers is such an overly centralizing, uncompetitive aspect of the metagame that takes away much of the prediction normally present in a good battle.

 

[Ace Trainer Riana]

The interesting thing is there's no talk of a Shadow Tag ban in OU. One solution would be to simultaneously test Gothitelle and Magnezone

 

[The Imposter]

The interesting thing is there's no talk of a Shadow Tag ban in OU. One solution would be to simultaneously test Gothitelle and Magnezone

Stall (the only playstyle which Stag is really annoying against) is uncommon and can still build around Shadow Tag. Against offense, Gothitelle's middling speed and power makes it mostly a non-issue. Magnezone can only trap certain things, and the things it can trap have evolved to handle it (bulldoze ferrothorn please catch on ;_; ). Wobbufett is actually really good in the current OU but it struggles to take repeated powerful hits from the likes of Gengar and Charizard X.

Trapping in general is pretty niche in OU, and it has little impact on teambuilding and the meta in general. That's why there's no talk of an OU Shadow Tag test.

 

[KillerDraco]

The interesting thing is there's no talk of a Shadow Tag ban in OU. One solution would be to simultaneously test Gothitelle and Magnezone

Barring what Imposter mentioned about Shadow Tag's niche presence in OU...

...You do realize Magnezone does not have Shadow Tag, correct? Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag may have a comparable effect, but given Magnet Pull works on just one of the 18 types out there (Steel), whereas Shadow Tag affects everything EXCEPT one type (Ghost), the difference between the two is like night and day. There's not a single reason to test Magnezone.

Magnezone is good, but it's not broken. It also has no place in a discussion about Shadow Tag, so let's not bring it up again.

 

[Lord Fighting]

So if shadow tag was to be banned from ubers does that essentially mean you can't mega evolve gengar?